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  #241  
Old 06-28-2022, 07:21 PM
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Ok, so while he was adamant yesterday that dormitories were out of the question he now is taking it back by stating that the new board will have to decide as some are very happy in dormitories so there are pros and contras?!

In addition, he thinks the problems are 'marginal' (5 or less 'violations' - overall we are doing really well)?! As has been the pattern so far, it doesn't sound as if they understand how serious the problem is nor do they truly want to change. After receiving criticism on him downplaying he explains that it is marginal but important?!

So, it seems he won't truly be in charge as he references 'the pupils, parents and future board might see things differently'. Yes, I am sure they do but wasn't he hired to change a toxic culture and that won't happen if you keep listening to those who created and justified that culture...
I think it is not "black and white", but more like a grayscale.

I can't possibly imagine any parent or board member dismissing sexual assault or rape as "minor violations" or allowing incidents like that to go on, which would be grounds, I believe, even to shut down the school.

On the other hand, when it comes to hazing for example, unfortunately I have met several people who not only genuinely believe in it (even those who were victims of hazing themselves) , but also who actually told me that they think it is essential for character building and for the preservation of school values (those are their words, not mine; I personally disagree). Anyway, my point is that, although I don't know old Herlovians myself, I am pretty sure that there are some among them, including parents of current students and possibly board members, who think that way too, and will be resistant to change.

Although Herlufsholm is a private school, I don't think the responsibility should rest on the board alone. In my opinion, the state regulators (in the Ministery of Education or equivalent) bear the responsibility to oversee if the board is complying with the recommendations of the report or not, and if they are not, take appropriate action.
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  #242  
Old 06-28-2022, 07:29 PM
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Ok, so while he was adamant yesterday that dormitories were out of the question he now is taking it back by stating that the new board will have to decide as some are very happy in dormitories so there are pros and contras?!

In addition, he thinks the problems are 'marginal' (5 or less 'violations' - overall we are doing really well)?! As has been the pattern so far, it doesn't sound as if they understand how serious the problem is nor do they truly want to change. After receiving criticism on him downplaying he explains that it is marginal but important?!

So, it seems he won't truly be in charge as he references 'the pupils, parents and future board might see things differently'. Yes, I am sure they do but wasn't he hired to change a toxic culture and that won't happen if you keep listening to those who created and justified that culture...

Pretty much. I had hoped that he would bring the kind of change that's needed, but now I have very strong doubts. Obviously, he wasn't given the kind of free hand he said he was, yesterday.

I've seen this sort of behavior before in businesses I've worked with, who need to change their culture. All the forces that created and maintain that culture are brought to the effort of keeping things as they are, while giving the appearance of changing.

IMO, there will be no change at Herlufsholm until the structure of the board is changed to remove people connected with the school from having controlling authority within the system and also removing access to victims by bullies at night. The current system of optionally sleeping in their own rooms is not really a solution, as extreme peer pressure can be brought to making sure that no one takes the school up on their offer.

As for the hotline, whistleblower hotlines are great, as long as someone does something with the information provided and doesn't turn around and punish the caller. I worked for a company once that implemented such a line. No changes ever came out of that. All investigations turned up nothing that needed to be changed, and it was interesting how most of the people who put in such calls (the ones who would admit to it to fellow workers) generally left the company a few months later. So, unless the school provides some hard numbers about calls received and dispositions of the charges made, then I'm not believing that it's anything more than PR to "demonstrate" that they are doing something.

The removal of the Prefects is a good thing, but I worry about what will replace them. I'm concerned that a system very similar to the old one will be adopted under a different name. "See," they will say, "we changed. We have this nice shiny new system." And, in the end, nothing will really change.

Also, I wonder if the national Agency has more limitations in dealing with Herlufsholm than they have with other private schools. The report made references to "exemptions" and "exclusions" relative to some laws for this specific school and I'm wondering if that means that the Agency has much more limited options for stopping this. So far, they have only talked about having them repay grants. Muhler, do you know what else they can do if the school doesn't comply with their demands?

Anyway, last night I was very hopeful that changes might actually take place. Tonight, I'm very much less optimistic.
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  #243  
Old 06-28-2022, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Hmm.
Sounds like he too could use a communications expert.
A part of me would have liked to see M&F to stay on and help turn the school around by example.
I was wrong.
The people connected to Herlufsholm are simply too clumsy.

It will be entertaining to follow, I fear.
I agree.

This is why I said yesterday that there is going to have to be an oversight committee comprised of the individuals from the appropriate governmental agencies (at this point, I would include someone connected to the judicial system) to oversee this new board and Chairman and ensure that all the recommendations are being taken seriously. Plus, this oversight committee would then report what progress (or lack thereof) the school was making in implementing (or at least taking the proper steps) the recommendations from this latest report. In addition, the school should be required to provide periodic status reports as to what has been done, how it has been done and the results. The appropriate agencies should also be made aware of any issues with implementing any of the recommendations so that revisions can be made if necessary. I am not of the opinion that the new board can be left to their own devices at this point.
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  #244  
Old 06-29-2022, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I can't possibly imagine any parent or board member dismissing sexual assault or rape as "minor violations" or allowing incidents like that to go on, which would be grounds, I believe, even to shut down the school.
I attended a school with people very well-off or very well-connectec, and I can tell I have heard more than once that when teenagers assault sexually another teenager, that may be a joke and that is not important enough to implant changes in the school mentality. So I wouldn't at all be surprised when very well-off and well-connected parents would tell that sexual assault or rape are not the kind of event that would justify implementing serious changes. This "point of view" is shared by a great part of the society (upper class, middle class, lower class, everybody).
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  #245  
Old 06-30-2022, 12:04 PM
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Quick question in all this mess - does the decision about the schooling especially of Christian solely rely on the judgement of his parents? I can't believe that there are no other factors (goverment, Queen Margrethe?) taken into consideration when a future King is concerned.

Other than that I think the timing was bad - especially with Maryfonden in the background - too little too late and now they have bad press, what does not happen often and needs to be contained if they don't want it to spread.
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  #246  
Old 06-30-2022, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Quick question in all this mess - does the decision about the schooling especially of Christian solely rely on the judgement of his parents? I can't believe that there are no other factors (goverment, Queen Margrethe?) taken into consideration when a future King is concerned.

Other than that I think the timing was bad - especially with Maryfonden in the background - too little too late and now they have bad press, what does not happen often and needs to be contained if they don't want it to spread.

I don't know, but I would imagine decisions about schooling are made primarily by the parents. I imagine that is a private matter which the government would not get involved in. At least, if we use the British royals as a reference, that seems to be the case.
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  #247  
Old 06-30-2022, 01:55 PM
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Hi Marmalade,

For your first question, yes, ultimately, Christian’s parents would have the final say, though, I would expect that people like the queen and the prime minister would get some input, and if either really objected, then they could essentially veto a decision.

It’s absolutely true, again IMO, that the taxpayers of Denmark, as represented by their government, have a legitimate right to input. And, of course, Christian himself should have input, as it’s his life.

I personally think that this came about because the DRF, like most examples of it’s kind, are somewhat isolated because of their position and wealth. Many of their friends send their kids there and didn’t see anything wrong with the school. Sure, it had a reputation for being elitist, but duh, name an elite school that doesn’t. Yes, it had something of a rep for bullying, but the administration said that was under control. Christian, by all accounts, wanted to go there, and when he was there apparently never saw anything to dissuade him of his positive opinion of the school.

Even when the Swedish tabloids proclaimed that the Prince was attending “rape school,” most people, myself included, thought it was just tabloid hype. Given their track record, it’s hard to blame us for that.

It was only when the TV2 documentary hit that everyone said OMG, this is totally off the chain. The Education ministry launched an investigation, and the results of that just added to the OMG factor.

Now you have people piously proclaiming that the DRF will never recover from the scandal. The thing to remember about press and about public reactions, is that whether it is bad or good, it’s usually transitory. Provided that the DRF keep from making further mistakes, I’ll almost guarantee you that, in five years, this will be a distant memory. If, however, they make more mistakes, especially with Christian’ education, then that’s a different story.
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  #248  
Old 06-30-2022, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Quick question in all this mess - does the decision about the schooling especially of Christian solely rely on the judgement of his parents? I can't believe that there are no other factors (goverment, Queen Margrethe?) taken into consideration when a future King is concerned.

Other than that I think the timing was bad - especially with Maryfonden in the background - too little too late and now they have bad press, what does not happen often and needs to be contained if they don't want it to spread.
For his siblings, that's up to M&F, but for Christian there are expectation - not demands as such, but expectations.
Basically that he gets a broad education enabling him to understand how the society runs and is administrated. An in depth course in politics and democracy.
And as he is a male and the Constitutions says that all able bodied men are obliged with their person to defend the country, combined with general conscription, it is also more than expected that he will have a military career of some sort. Not least since he is destined to be the commander in chief.
he is also expected to get to know the country and people as best as he can, which means that he is more than likely to have a part of his education in another part of Denmark, outside the general area of Copenhagen. The best guess being Aarhus University.
He is also expected to study abroad for a period. - As a part of his formative upbringing and to learn about other countries and cultures, practice his English (or French or another language) and to learn to stand on his own two legs. - That's a centuries old custom.
A good guess would be a couple of semesters at an Australian university, but also a leading French, British or US university.
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  #249  
Old 06-30-2022, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronojourner View Post
Hi Marmalade,

For your first question, yes, ultimately, Christian’s parents would have the final say, though, I would expect that people like the queen and the prime minister would get some input, and if either really objected, then they could essentially veto a decision.

It’s absolutely true, again IMO, that the taxpayers of Denmark, as represented by their government, have a legitimate right to input. And, of course, Christian himself should have input, as it’s his life.

I personally think that this came about because the DRF, like most examples of it’s kind, are somewhat isolated because of their position and wealth. Many of their friends send their kids there and didn’t see anything wrong with the school. Sure, it had a reputation for being elitist, but duh, name an elite school that doesn’t. Yes, it had something of a rep for bullying, but the administration said that was under control. Christian, by all accounts, wanted to go there, and when he was there apparently never saw anything to dissuade him of his positive opinion of the school.

Even when the Swedish tabloids proclaimed that the Prince was attending “rape school,” most people, myself included, thought it was just tabloid hype. Given their track record, it’s hard to blame us for that.

It was only when the TV2 documentary hit that everyone said OMG, this is totally off the chain. The Education ministry launched an investigation, and the results of that just added to the OMG factor.

Now you have people piously proclaiming that the DRF will never recover from the scandal. The thing to remember about press and about public reactions, is that whether it is bad or good, it’s usually transitory. Provided that the DRF keep from making further mistakes, I’ll almost guarantee you that, in five years, this will be a distant memory. If, however, they make more mistakes, especially with Christian’ education, then that’s a different story.
Just to be clear for those who might think the investigation was in response to the documentary. It was not! The Agency didn't launch an investigation because/after the documentary but had been investigating the school for several months because of concerning signals they received - among others from (former) students.
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  #250  
Old 06-30-2022, 06:21 PM
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Just to be clear for those who might think the investigation was in response to the documentary. It was not! The Agency didn't launch an investigation because/after the documentary but had been investigating the school for several months because of concerning signals they received - among others from (former) students.
Thanks for clearing that up. I misstated that. It was already going on.
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  #251  
Old 07-03-2022, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Quick question in all this mess - does the decision about the schooling especially of Christian solely rely on the judgement of his parents? I can't believe that there are no other factors (goverment, Queen Margrethe?) taken into consideration when a future King is concerned.

Other than that I think the timing was bad - especially with Maryfonden in the background - too little too late and now they have bad press, what does not happen often and needs to be contained if they don't want it to spread.
I cant see anyone other than his parents being involved, unless they were planning on an option that would cause political or diplomatic issues. Margrethe has always seemed to be of the Im here if you need me but you need to figure your life out for yourself school of parenting. I can see the government becoming more involved with his post-secondary education, but high school is just high school no matter who you are.

I think the bad press will pass and Mary and Frederik have spent enough time over the past many years cultivating a positive relationship with the Danish public that there wont be any lasting damage provided there arent any further incidents like this. Sending Christian back to public school would be a good option - somewhere that has high academic standards but without Herlufholms elitist reputation.
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  #252  
Old 07-11-2022, 05:04 AM
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There are many schools out there and I am sure there is one that is right for Christian. That he may be bullied is a fact of life even if he is a future King and that's what Charles found out. Two totally different men were born to be King and both got into the wrong school.

For Charles, it was probably temperament but for Christian, the future could have been disastrous. If they had actual rape cases at this very fine school, is it really too far to think someone could be killed as happened in Belgium? Beating juniors . . . a blow to the head could cause brain injury and/or death, the stink from any of the extremes that seem to have been "common" is a stink that would always cling to Prince Christian . . . did he bully, did he assault . . . please God, not rape? That sort of stigma would not look good on a future King.

Would Isabella have been accepted into the "in crowd" or hazed, perhaps even sexually assaulted or raped? Would a bunch of mean-spirited kids have even cared about what 'could' happen, would envy cause bullying or pressure them to be part of the problem. They are well out of the toxic stew.
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  #253  
Old 07-11-2022, 07:26 AM
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MARG post 10,087. Very well thought out post and much common sense. Thank you.
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  #254  
Old 07-23-2022, 06:44 PM
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Schools in Denmark start again in two weeks (I think), So i am wondering when we will know which new schools they have chosen for Christian and Isabella. I guess that they will probably wait as long as they can to announce the news to limit the discussion and attention as much as possible.
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  #255  
Old 09-02-2022, 02:58 PM
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I suppose this belongs here.

While Mary was visiting Greenland - an important event in its own right and which will be covered elsewhere - she was asked to comment on how the Herlufsholm affair affected her and her family.

She replied: "It was a very intense period that took up a lot of space (public and privately presumably) and very much weighed down/was a strain on us in the family. But I'm always pleased and proud over the work we are doing in the Mary Foundation."

- Yes, Mary has always been good at getting the conversation back onto the track, she prefer it should run along.

Anyway, as I interpret this. This was not a happy time to put it mildly for M&F and especially Christian and Isabella.
I interpret "intense period" as having to make a not at all easy decision. And doing it fast.
And "weighed down on the family" as being most uncomfortable for the children.
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  #256  
Old 05-02-2023, 03:03 PM
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https://www.bt.dk/samfund/internt-br...ionregning-til

Today the decision by the department that oversee schools under the Ministry of Education has been made public by Herlufsholm.
The department demands that Herlufshom pay back 27 million DKK (roughly 3.8 million Euros/Dollars) and implement a number of demands made by the same department in regards to running the school, dealing with the environment there, implementing procedures to deal with issues etc. etc.

That is quite a bucketful of money! So the school protested about having to pay back the 27 million. Which constitute half the state subsidy for the school for the school year of 21/22.
- A way the Ministry of Education can discipline private schools, short of closing them, is to demand subsidies back or withholding subsidies. Severely straining the economy of any private school. Demanding 50 % of the subsidies back is one major whack on the head!

But that protest has been binned by the Ministry.
The school claims that the other demands made by the Ministry is in line with the initiatives the school itself has and is implementing.
- Such demands (a "pbud") by the ministry are non negotiable. They must be followed, to the letter. Otherwise even more severe sanctions will follow.

The school is in contact with its lawyers in regards to how to deal with the demand about paying the subsidy back.
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  #257  
Old 05-27-2023, 05:18 AM
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The scandals at Herlufsholm has cost the school dear!

There has been a drop of 35 % in applications (high school) as first priority to Herlufsholm. (In DK you apply for admittance to the school you prefer the most as first priority. If there are no vacant seats, you move on to the the school you chose as second priority and if need be to third priority.)

Last year 97 applied for Herlufsholm as first priority. This year that number has dropped to 63.

In contrast to public funded schools, that have few applications (usually to a poor reputation) Herlufsholm is a private funded school, so they don't get "surplus" students. Herlufsholm will just have to do with whoever applies and if there aren't that many, the school loses money - but also subsidies from the state, because that depends on the number of students.

And combined with the Ministry of Education demanding a refund of a big barrel-load of money from the school, (See my previous post) Herlufsholm has a serious financial problem!
The school still has a support-network of former and wealthy students, but that number is dwindling.
https://www.bt.dk/samfund/efter-skan...le-styrtdykker
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  #258  
Old 05-27-2023, 10:51 AM
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Oh dear. So what's in the beginning appeared to be something that would boost their prestige (having future king and his sister in their "collection") ends up to be their downfall.
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  #259  
Old 06-02-2023, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The scandals at Herlufsholm has cost the school dear!

There has been a drop of 35 % in applications (high school) as first priority to Herlufsholm. (In DK you apply for admittance to the school you prefer the most as first priority. If there are no vacant seats, you move on to the the school you chose as second priority and if need be to third priority.)

Last year 97 applied for Herlufsholm as first priority. This year that number has dropped to 63.

In contrast to public funded schools, that have few applications (usually to a poor reputation) Herlufsholm is a private funded school, so they don't get "surplus" students. Herlufsholm will just have to do with whoever applies and if there aren't that many, the school loses money - but also subsidies from the state, because that depends on the number of students.

And combined with the Ministry of Education demanding a refund of a big barrel-load of money from the school, (See my previous post) Herlufsholm has a serious financial problem!
The school still has a support-network of former and wealthy students, but that number is dwindling.
https://www.bt.dk/samfund/efter-skan...le-styrtdykker
This is only the first round of applications since the issues were made public, though. Given the nature of some of the allegations, the drop of 35% isnt horrible (and thats only the decrease in how many students picked the school as their first choice - if I understand correctly there hasnt necessarily been a decrease in the number of kids who would be willing to go to Herlufsholm).

I would predict that the school may not be as spoilt for choice as they usually are in the students they accept over the next year or two, but after that applications will bounce back.

The admissions committee will also be able to see if theres been a decrease in applications from families with a significant connection to the school - its a bigger problem for them if families who have sent two or three generations of kids to Herlufsholm are staying away.
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  #260  
Old 06-07-2023, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
This is only the first round of applications since the issues were made public, though. Given the nature of some of the allegations, the drop of 35% isnt horrible (and thats only the decrease in how many students picked the school as their first choice - if I understand correctly there hasnt necessarily been a decrease in the number of kids who would be willing to go to Herlufsholm).



I would predict that the school may not be as spoilt for choice as they usually are in the students they accept over the next year or two, but after that applications will bounce back.



The admissions committee will also be able to see if theres been a decrease in applications from families with a significant connection to the school - its a bigger problem for them if families who have sent two or three generations of kids to Herlufsholm are staying away.


Its interesting that a private school gets any subsidy or funding from the state. Sounds like they dont have complete autonomy this way.

Also interesting about how the kids apply to multiple schools.

(Im accustomed to the American system where a private school gets no public money, and they run things as they choose, within state-mandated rules about curriculum, attendance, and the like. Herlufsholm sounds more like what we call a charter school a state-funded public school with a special focus or curriculum that can choose its students.)
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