General Questions and Information about the Danish Royal Family


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I am referring to Frederik's grandchildren through Isabella and Josephine.

If things go as expected, Christian's children will be HRH Prince/ss X.

Based on the titles and styling of Joachim's children, Vincent's (male line) children will be HH Prince/ss Y.

Will Isabella and Josephine's (female line) children also be HH Princes and Princesses?

ETA:
Are you all saying that things are not yet codified and/or based on the preference of the current monarch?
 
Last edited:
I am referring to Frederik's grandchildren through Isabella and Josephine.

If things go as expected, Christian's children will be HRH Prince/ss X.

Based on the titles and styling of Joachim's children, Vincent's (male line) children will be HH Prince/ss Y.

Will Isabella and Josephine's (female line) children also be HH Princes and Princesses?

ETA:
Are you all saying that things are not yet codified and/or based on the preference of the current monarch?

I'm saying that the Danish monarch is the undisputed head of the family and as such also the de facto judge of the family for that matter.
In theory the monarch can strip any member of the DRF of their title, except for the crown prince m/f. That persons title, place in the line of succession and when that persons steps in on behalf of the monarch is protected by law.

Okay, in 25 years Frederik is king.
All his children by now each have two children, who because their are children of royal are also princes/ses.
The same thing applies to Joachim's children, each have two royal children.
That's 16 royal grandchildren, plus Joachim and Fredrik's 8 children. Joachim, Frederik, Mary and our Marie themselves, that's 4 royals. Then we presume that the children are all married to spouses who also have a royal title, that's 8 more.
That's altogether 36 royals milling around in Denmark in 25 years from now!
That's an unacceptable high number, so that number has to be curbed, and that decision is up to the monarch.
So we should not be surprised if Joachim's children will loose their royal title upon marriage, simply as a way to keep the number down.
It's been done before, when royals married "beneath their station".
Nowadays it's much more brutal, because it's up to the monarch to strip them of their titles, not "the system".

It will not remove their place in the line of succession, that's stated by law. But there is really no reason why #19 in line for the throne should have the title of princess to Denmark. The chances of that princess to ever getting near to the throne, even standing in as Rigsforstander is remote.

So Frederik will have some unpleasant decisions to make at some point.
 
Previously titles were not passed on through the female line - unless direct heir to the throne. So, is there are formal rule that anyone descending from a prince or princess will be a prince or princess him/herself, if not, why do you expect that Isabella's, Josepine's, and Athena's children will also be princes and princesses? Especially since the Monpezat title was limited to the male line...
 
Why shouldn't they?

I think it would be seen as very odd if Isabella's children were not given royal titles while Vincent's would. There would be an uproar here in DK!
 
Why shouldn't they?

I think it would be seen as very odd if Isabella's children were not given royal titles while Vincent's would. There would be an uproar here in DK!

But then why did they choose to handle the Monpezat titles differently and limit them to the male line? I never quite understood that...
 
But then why did they choose to handle the Monpezat titles differently and limit them to the male line? I never quite understood that...

Nor have I. :ermm:
Perhaps it was to please PH. He was pretty old fashioned in many ways.
 
:previous: No, the Law of Succession states very clearly that the Monarch cannot change the title of or bypass the crown prince/ss.
Everybody else, yes. But not the crown prince.

- Presumably that was to avoid a future civil war, in case there was a dispute about who was to get on the throne.

The sovereign cannot bypass anyone in the line of succession, given that the order of succession is established by the Act of Succession.

Looking at the Act of Succession (pp. 36-37, PDF here), I don't see any proviso that the monarch may not change the crown prince's title.
 
I was not clear.

It was the title I meant.
The bit about the crown prince who cannot be bypassed, should have been kept separately in my post.
 
The easiest solution would probably be to only make Christian's children royal highnesses and not the children of his siblings. Although Vincent's children would be earls and countesses of Monpezat and Isabella's and Josephine's children would have their respective father's surname. Alternatively, the grandchildren in both male and female line would be highnesses and prince(ss), however, which surname would be passed on to Isabella's and Josephine's children by a son? Would they end up with the surname of Isabella's and Joseohine's husbands (so does it just skip one generation)?
 
Last edited:
:previous: Your answer would be as good as anyone's. ?
We shall see in 25 years if we are both still here.
 
:previous: Your answer would be as good as anyone's. ?
We shall see in 25 years if we are both still here.

I guess this question is faced by most royal families these days with the change to equal succession and countries/monarchies are handling it diffrently, so it will be interesting to see what option the Danes pick and whether they still support that decision one or two generations later (which we might not live to see); the Belgians turned from their new ways pretty quickly...
 
I was not clear.

It was the title I meant.
The bit about the crown prince who cannot be bypassed, should have been kept separately in my post.

Thanks for the clarification. :flowers:

But it seems to me that the Act of Succession would not hold back Queen Margrethe from changing Frederik's title from Crown Prince to Prince, for example, as the change of title would not have any impact on Frederik's place in the line of succession.
 
Thanks for the clarification. :flowers:

But it seems to me that the Act of Succession would not hold back Queen Margrethe from changing Frederik's title from Crown Prince to Prince, for example, as the change of title would not have any impact on Frederik's place in the line of succession.

Except that the title of crown prince has a specific meaning in regards to who is to be regent and so on.
It's of course theoretical, because attempting to demote Frederik to a mere prince, would lead to very stern political warnings and lead to a public demand for an abdication. Even if it was legally possible, which I actually doubt.
QMII herself had the title of The Successor, but only because there was a possibility that her parents would have a son.
 
I agree that it is theoretical - my discussion was only about the legal possibility. As far as I can see, the laws say nothing about the title of Crown Prince; both the constitution and the regency act use the word Thronfølgeren in place of Kronprinsen.

Of course, the Queen would not attempt changes to titles if the government were opposed.
 
Except that the title of crown prince has a specific meaning in regards to who is to be regent and so on.
It's of course theoretical, because attempting to demote Frederik to a mere prince, would lead to very stern political warnings and lead to a public demand for an abdication. Even if it was legally possible, which I actually doubt.
QMII herself had the title of The Successor, but only because there was a possibility that her parents would have a son.
The UK is the same I think. Princess Elizabeth was only ever the heir presumptive and never Princess of Wales and access to the disposition and running of the Duchy of Cornwall.

While the law of succession has become gender neutral, the Aristocracy has not which is just plain wrong. Why should a woman and her daughter move out of the family pile leaving the entailed goods (jewels) to some hick from Australia whom they've never met.
 
Except that the title of crown prince has a specific meaning in regards to who is to be regent and so on.
It's of course theoretical, because attempting to demote Frederik to a mere prince, would lead to very stern political warnings and lead to a public demand for an abdication. Even if it was legally possible, which I actually doubt.
QMII herself had the title of The Successor, but only because there was a possibility that her parents would have a son.
Not only due to that, but also because here in Denmark (at least before the change of the AoS in 2005) a Crown Princess is married to a Crown Prince.
 
The easiest solution would probably be to only make Christian's children royal highnesses and not the children of his siblings. Although Vincent's children would be earls and countesses of Monpezat and Isabella's and Josephine's children would have their respective father's surname. Alternatively, the grandchildren in both male and female line would be highnesses and prince(ss), however, which surname would be passed on to Isabella's and Josephine's children by a son? Would they end up with the surname of Isabella's and Joseohine's husbands (so does it just skip one generation)?

That is what is already done now and is usually the case in danish RF. Only the children of the Heir are Royal Highness, the children of younger sons are Highness. The question is if the children of Vincent and his siblings will also be Prince/Princess.
 
That is what is already done now and is usually the case in danish RF. Only the children of the Heir are Royal Highness, the children of younger sons are Highness. The question is if the children of Vincent and his siblings will also be Prince/Princess.

Both suggestions I made deviate from the current practice that only male-line grandchildren are highnesses (next to making the heir's children royal highnesses). The first by not making any grandchildren (other than by future direct heirs) princes and princesses (but only give them their father's surname or other titles - without the style of highness), the second by extending male-line to female-line.
 
While the law of succession has become gender neutral, the Aristocracy has not which is just plain wrong. Why should a woman and her daughter move out of the family pile leaving the entailed goods (jewels) to some hick from Australia whom they've never met.

They don't move out and don't leave jewels for somebody. Property isn't entailed to British title anymore.
 
:previous:

The Law of Property Act 1925 facilitated barring the entail, but entailed estates were not abolished with it.

Law of Property Act 1925

Without making use of entails, the British aristocracy still is able to effectively preclude women from the inheritance of properties, as Marg's article illustrates. In most instances, the family home is left to the male heir to the peerage.

Most vocal among them is Edward Lambton, 'Ned' to his friends, or the 7th Earl of Durham to readers of Debrett's. As the only son of the late Lord Lambton, the Tory minister who resigned in 1973 after being photographed in bed with a prostitute, he inherited the entirety of his father's £12m fortune, including Lambton Castle and Biddick Hall in County Durham, and Villa Cetinale in Tuscany, considered by some to be Italy's most beautiful house. As the elder Lambton spent the last 30 years of his life in Italy, under Italian law all his children are entitled to a share of the estate. Since his death in 2006, three of his daughters have been locked in a dispute with their brother, demanding their share. Just as they were preparing to settle for a payment of £1m each, negotiations broke down and Ned served a High Court writ, designed to clarify some outstanding legal issues.
 
:previous:

The Law of Property Act 1925 facilitated barring the entail, but entailed estates were not abolished with it.

Law of Property Act 1925

Without making use of entails, the British aristocracy still is able to effectively preclude women from the inheritance of properties, as Marg's article illustrates. In most instances, the family home is left to the male heir to the peerage.

But it has nothing to do with laws. British laws allow to leave all estate to daughters.
 
But it has nothing to do with laws. British laws allow to leave all estate to daughters.

I think that Marg's post was referring to the British laws of succession to aristocratic titles, which are put as justification for bypassing daughters and leaving the family property and fortune to male heirs.
 
Danish New Ceremonial Events.

I read in the Biography of Princess Mary, 2005, that QM11 had introduced many new ceremonial events to the Danish National Calendar. Can anybody comment of this?
 
One of QMII's four LiWs is retiring from duty.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/dronningen-udnaevner-ny-hofdame

It is Ane Vibeke Foss, who after many years has requested being relieved of her duties. (*)
Ane Vibeke Foss is 80 years old and a close personal friend of QMII since their youth.

Replacing her from 1. July is Henriette Obel, chamberlain.
Henriette Obel has had a very distinguished career in private businesses.

She joins the three other LiWs QMII has, Annette de Scheel (nobility), Annelise Wern (nobility) and Jette Nordam.

A Lady in Waiting is a personal assistant that is even more personal, than a hired personal assistant. Apart from assisting the Queen in various matters on duty and in sorting through the more personal letters to QMII a LiW is also a close confidante with an intimate knowledge of the royal lady they serve, they have to in order to help. That can be anything from acquiring very personal sanitary articles to picking up the signals when their royal lady needs to be "rescued" from a bore. A LiW will often also go to a place that will have a longer royal visit, to ensure that say personal facilities are in place and contain what is required, that bouquets and the attire of their lay will match and a multitude of other personal matters.
A LiW is expected to always be discreetly presentable. She must never outshine her lady, like the bodyguards, always close but unnoticed.

A LiW does not resign or get fired. They either ask to be relieved of their duties. Or if having made a transgression, they are dismissed.
That's because a LiW is not a paid member of the staff, and as such is outside the staff-hierarchy.
A LiW is requested to serve her lady/Monarch and it is an honor, privilege and duty to serve. One certainly does not get paid as if one was a mere maid!

Apart from the honor (also to your family, because you are not chosen if your family has a history of being controversial or having done shady things) the job contains a good deal of perks and privileges. You are sure to retire with stars and orders and a personal reputation and integrity that is considered above reproach. - And if you are married to such an esteemed being, it rubs off on you as well... ;)

Traditionally it was members of the nobility only who served as Ladies in Waiting, but today that is no longer a requirement, even though most are still from noble families.
Today they are selected for their high integrity, personal relationship with their lady and for high intelligence and education, often in leadership positions, giving them added authority when needed.

Follow up.

Here is a photo of Henriette Obel.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/dronningen-udnaevner-ny-hofdame

She is very well educated business women, who has lived for a number of years in England with her husband, who was an investor there.
Her mother-in-law, Ulla Obel, is a personal friend of QMII and a former LiW herself.
The family is friends with both QMII and M&F.
It's a very discreet family. It's hard to fidn photos of the family members and even photos of the place they live, Haxholm Estate, in Jutland are hard to find. https://www.kroneborg.dk/images/show_images/54/2017/5/hagsholm---haxholm_1494786505727.png
The estate is from the 1500s, but the current main building is from 1909. It has been owned by the Obel family since 1926.

- I wonder if she has daughters? In that case they might be of interest to Mary when she becomes queen.
This is the ebst I could find:
 
Last edited:
How wonderful that the whole family know her, no chance of Courtiers overstepping themselves and interfering in the family dynamics.
 
According to BT QMII's LiWs share the year between them, so that each LiW is on duty for three months at a time.

- That is nevertheless a long time, because QMII constantly has a LiW around, also at dinner, where her adjutant on duty is also present. As well as on holidays. (A majesty is never on her own.)

Also, I have to correct my previous post. Ladies in Waiting nowadays receive a salary.
- Come to think of it, I do seem to recall that this was introduced some 10-20 years ago, after some controversy regarding the LiWs working for free.
The salary can IMO hardly amount to much more than pocket money for the ladies, as they all seem to be wealthy in their own rights.
 
Very interesting! Does Mary or all senior Royal ladies have LiW or Just the Queen?
 
Very interesting! Does Mary or all senior Royal ladies have LiW or Just the Queen?

Mary has one LiW. And always have.
When she becomes queen I imagine she will have at least two, pretty much full time LiWs.

Our Marie used to have a LiW as well.
But now she use a relative of Prince Henrik as a personal assistant when on the job in DK at least. Can't remember his name off hand. He is a nephew of PH,, lives in DK and IIRC is married to a Dane.
And when abroad she is typically teamed up with members of the court or government and ministerial civil servants or people from the embassy.

Joachim at least used to have a permanent adjutant, who doubled as part time secretary, court-liaison officer and sometimes a kind of adjutant/gentleman-in-waiting when on the job.
Because that adjutant pretty much constituted the entire staff of Joachim.

QMII has a Staff of Adjutants and they cover the entire DRF. Today that's mainly M&F and sometimes Joachim and Benedikte.
They rotate and often serve for only a few years. So say Mary's adjutant on the job on a Tuesday may not be the same as the one on Thursday.
That is in contrast to say Crown Princess Victoria, who AFAIK do not have a LiW, but instead a permanently attached female adjutant, who perform pretty much the same tasks as an adjutant and LiW. - But of course without being a close personal friend.
 
Back
Top Bottom