General Questions and Information about the Danish Royal Family

[Muhler]

I think that under the wedding between the then Pss Anne-Marie and King Constantine that the danish royal yacht Dannebrog was considered danish soil and therefor no regent/rigsforstander was apointed as King Frederik IX was on danish soil.

But I´m not sure...

Yes, as a warship Dannebrog is to beconsidered a Danish embassy wherever she sails. But even though the DRF would have been on Danish soil it was not in Denmark, so a Rigsforstander had to have been appointed.
Probably one of the Rosenborgs or secondary princess..
I must admit I don't know who was around back then.

 

[FasterB]

Yes, as a warship Dannebrog is to beconsidered a Danish embassy wherever she sails. But even though the DRF would have been on Danish soil it was not in Denmark, so a Rigsforstander had to have been appointed.
Probably one of the Rosenborgs or secondary princess..
I must admit I don't know who was around back then.

Could it have been Arveprins Knud?

 

[Muhler]

Could it have been Arveprins Knud?

If he wasn't in Greece, he would be the natural choice I'd say.

 

[polyesco]

Not sure what this is
Rottefælden klapper igen | Billed Bladet

but the three "royal ladies" looks hilarious
http://www.billedbladet.dk/sites/bi.../media/article/rottefaelden.jpg?itok=Z8PoFAqh

 

[Muhler]

That's from one of the yearly summer revues, albeit less well known, as the one I wrote about where PH is parodied.

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #26, 2015.
Where Carina Møller would like to know whether Prince Nikolai will lose his title as prince if he marries a commoner.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies yes and no.
It's entirely up to the Monarch to bestow titles within the DRF but also strip people of titles. But as several members of the DRF have married commoners, Jon Bloch Skipper doubts Nikolai will lose his title should he marry a commoner.

However, the Law of Succession §5.3 states that if a person who is in the Line of Succession marries without the Monarch giving his/her consent in the State Council, that person will forfeit his/her place in the Line of Succession and so will the children of such a marriage.

 

[Muhler]

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #42, 2015.

Where a Jane Rasmussen would like to know whether there has been a gay man in the DRF.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies that no one has come out of the closet within the DRF.
Anyway, homosexuality for men (women were not covered by the law) was punishable in DK until the 1930's and officially listed as a mental illness until the early 1980's. So that alone may have been good reasons for some to remain in the closet.
So, no there have never been official gay men in the DRF but there have been rumors about several.
One of them being Prince Harald in particular, who died in 1949. Despite him being married to princess Helena (*) and having a number of children.

(*) Princess Helena was a major scandal within the DRF and Christian X actually banished her for a number of years and only allowed her back to Denmark when her husband died.
Helena was German and when DK was occupied in 1940-45 she was to put it mildly, positive towards the occupation and the occupiers. Apparently it wasn't Harald who wore the trousers in that marriage! And that combined with the fact that he didn't have the most masculine facial features in the world may have led to the rumors.

 

[Muhler]

While going to the baker this morning to pick up bread and pastry I bought the paper edition of BT and it has a very interesting article featuring Mary and Marie in particular.
Including the results of a poll by Gallup.
And let me put it like this: If Mary and our Marie enjoyed an extra snail this morning, it's well deserved!

Below er links to the articles and the polls.
I will later today return and write summaries, in the meantime those who can read Danish have the advantage.

First the results of the poll and a guide:
https://app.box.com/s/x619s5lf8udgnbfyzivjfrzfds0axje0
The questions are from left to right:
Do you believe it was wise or unwise of the DRF when they ask for a correction of the Her & Nu story about the breast-surgery of Princess Marie?
Has the demand of a correction influenced your view on the DRF in a positive and negative direction?
Will it be positive or negative if the DRF increasingly starts to react on the way the media talk/write about the royal family?

https://app.box.com/s/yka2yfbboxa4rvrkhpkw1qrojk7hn26f
From left to right:
Is Crown Princess Mary contributing to the reputation of the DRF in a positive or negative manner?
Is Princess Marie contributing to the reputation of the DRF in a positive or negative manner?
How do you assess the effort by the royal family in representing Denmark on a scale from 1-5, where 5 is very good and 1 is very bad?

Guide to the response:
Positiv = Positive.
Negativ = Negative.
Overvejende positiv = predominantly positive.
Overvejende negativ = predominantly negative.
ved ikke = Don't know.
Uændret = Unchanged.
Klogt = Wise.
Uklogt = Unwise.

Now for the articles.
The first one is basically explaining why Mary and Marie are popular and respected and to some extent comparing them.
https://app.box.com/s/ise1pvowkn8lsdl8jyo6dykflrzfyp3s
https://app.box.com/s/c7s1zavoljpxkpcog7gjkqwc7c5jig88

The next article is about why Joachim and Frederik are trailing behind their wives:
https://app.box.com/s/ww6nymrlork0qxm2ggpve09lqhcp75ax

The last article are reactions on how the press and communications experts got it wrong in regards to the public reaction to Breastgate:
https://app.box.com/s/zj2qq5us2tb8kns4y60wzjl66y93bje4

- More on all that later.

And mods, perhaps we should consider have a thread about the public and press perception on the DRF, both in DK and abroad?

 

[Muhler]

Summary of article in BT, 18th October 2015.
Written by Mads Korsager Nielsen.

Why are Mary and our Marie so popular?

Thomas Larsen from the serious paper, Berlingske, says: "If one looks at their very big popularity it's the acknowledgement of the Danes that they have taken on large tasks and use their position to promote important issues like for example social issues and bullying among children".

Branding expert, Helene Bak Hansen says: "They have taken on and involved themselves in other issues than was done beforehand (in DK that is). Like for example their work against bullying or obesity. It's very present and current. The two women have the finger on the pulse".

Why do 94 % believe Mary is an asset and 87 % believe Marie is a positive asset?
The explanation from a number of people BT has asked is: intelligence. They are smart women.

Anna Johannesen from BB tells about her very first encounter with Mary: "She was professional and mildly disarming. She explained in friendly manner that she respected the job as journalist, but she couldn't say anything. Already back then she obviously understood what she was a part of.
She thinks before she leaps into something. And if she decides to do something, she commits herself fully. She goes all in, as you say.
She's beautiful, bright and knows what she is doing. On top of that she has a fantastic influence on the Crown Prince".

Something that was confirmed by Frederik himself to BT during his visit to Nepal: "It makes me so glad and proud to see how Crown Princess Mary follow that track. She's the kind of person who is attentive of the well-being of people - especially those who need a hand". Here he also added that he is learning a lot from Mary.

However, the surface sometimes get a scratch, like when it emerged that Mary owns a handbag by Hermes, which according to PETA is made from animals being skinned alive and being worth 221.000 DKK.

But how about Marie?
Martin Berner, who races with Joachim has told about Marie's influence on Joachim: "There is no doubt that she has her own opinions about things and (she) gives him the counterplay/resistance that is needed".

Something that is confirmed by Joachim: "My wife (informal word) should have the credit for all the areas where I have improved". He adds that she picked him up after the divorce where he had his issues in coping with it.
"My best coach is my wife. When there are others who try and coach me, I have a tendency to struggle/become stubborn".

John Lindskog has written a book about Marie and describes her as "a strong woman, who won't put up with anything".
"She has been very willing to adapt to a new situation for a Frenchman and (she) has learned Danish quickly. At the same time she's a fantastically sweet girl who takes good care of Joachim's sons from the previous marriage as well as her own children. And on top of that she looks smashing".

Privately Mary and Marie probably don't see each other that much, says Annelise Weimann. "They are very different types. Mary is very controlled and perfectionistic, while Marie is more laid back. Then she isn't to be queen one day, but only make sure to have a good life in a big Klampenborg-villa. That's why it's an open question as how much they deal with each other".
Probably no more that the wives of two ordinary Danish brothers see each other, she says.

However, Mary and Marie are not 100 % perfect. They for instance don't seem to have QMII's artistic talents.
Helen Bak Jensen: "Queen Margrethe is artistically creative. She paints, make dresses and create performances. That brand is very important and you should not underestimate that she has reached far along that way, when you like she, has to mingle across cultures and countries. It's a pity the Princesses haven't got that one as well".

- The next post will be about why Joachim and Frederik are not as relatively popular as their wives.

 

[Muhler]

Now, why are both Mary and Marie more popular than their respective husbands?

Thomas Larsen, who is the author of a number of books on the DRF, says: "They are household-masters because they have taken their new track very seriously. All have seen that they both have put in a tremendous effort from the arrival to Denmark. Both in regards to learning the language but also very much so by taking on long row of important tasks.
If you are to put it very directly then the Crown Prince is a very accomplished sportsman. There are many Danes who are impressed when he does an ironman or the Swedish Classic. But it's not something that is being acknowledged in the same way as with Mary".

And for Joachim: "You have seen more pictures of him in a racing suit, than where he is doing something serious. It may seem unfair that it doesn't when they (Joachim and Frederik) take part in charity. But it's challenge the DRF has to take seriously. There is a quid pro quo agreement with the people, and if they don't abide by it, the support drops".

 

[polyesco]

thank you Muhler
Roskilde had posted the poll in another thread, under general news for the DRF, Maybe we can join them together.

I think both Frederik and Joachim can be quite proud of their wives. Adapting to a new country and culture and taking on their new roles in the royal family

they obviously have different roles and pressures on them, but both have done well. And of course, young beautiful women will always bring more attention then boring suits (no matter how handsome Frederik is)

But hopefully the press and the DRF PR highlight Frederik and Joachim's events more. They are certainly both very experience and knowledgeable, plus Frederik always adds his natural charm and down to earth approach.
Joachim adds his colorful fashion statements

 

[Muhler]

BT has written a number of articles lately based on a book by Søren Jakobsen, a former Ekstra Bladet journalist.
The book and a former similar book is about the most wealthy families in DK, families that are very discreet, do not belong to the jetset and who shun attention.
A number of these families, including the Lego-family, are also close to the DRF, but discreet.

And typical of wealthy and as such influential families they are also close to the royals, who in return bestow titles on members of these families. Like the title of chamberlain, which ranks above supreme court judge.

I haven't got time to go in details about this.
But it has come up before that the DRF are close to, and some would claim too close, to these very rich families.
It's no big issue IMO because the royals have always been close to the rich and powerful in any country at any time. Beforehand that was members of the nobility and as long as it doesn't influence the DRF it's no big deal.
And of course there are cases of "I rub your back, you rub mine".

Also in regards to the sale of Schackenborg, where all sides got a very good deal. - Joachim is now very wealthy and those who bought into Schackenborg got a good (tax deductible) price and the gratitude of the DRF.

Kongehuset smykker danske rigmænd med titler: Sådan er det at være kammerherre - og så vanvittig dyr er uniformen - Danmark | www.bt.dk
Den inderste cirkel: Derfor er Danmarks rigeste så tætte på de kongelige - Danmark | www.bt.dk

 

[LeDerius]

Highness?

Hi,

Does anyone know the formal reason the grandchildren fo Queen Margrethe from her second son are highness instead of royal highness? Is this their way of maintaining the dignity of a royal prince and princess, while making the working royal family smaller?

 

[Muhler]

Hi,

Does anyone know the formal reason the grandchildren fo Queen Margrethe from her second son are highness instead of royal highness? Is this their way of maintaining the dignity of a royal prince and princess, while making the working royal family smaller?

AFAIK there has never been an official explanation from QMII, but you pretty much nailed it.
Felix, Nikolai, Henrik and Athena are de facto one generation away from being commoners. I.e. they shall not expect their children to have a royal title.
The same thing will most likely be the case for Isabella, Vincent and Josephine's grandchildren.

A qualified guess from me would be that there will be a lot of Count/esses of Montepezat around over the next generation or two.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

In what year did the rigsforstander first begin in the Danish monarchy?

 

[Muhler]

In what year did the rigsforstander first begin in the Danish monarchy?

The concept of a Rigsforstander goes back to at least the 1100's.

The word "forstander" means a headmaster or rather leader of a specific institution. Like a school, lunacy asylum, leprosy hospital, prison, house for poor and so on.
So when you add "rigs" to "forstander" you get headmaster/manager of the realm.
The first time the title of Rigsforstander is mentioned officially, with special flag and all, is in 1504.

 

[Muhler]

Summary of three Q&A in Billed Bladet #17, 2017.

Here a Stine Gotfredsen would like to know how you become countess and baroness.

Jon Bloch Skipper explains that you either inherit the title or marry into the title. - Or as in the case with Countess Alexandra it's bestowed honorary and personally (it can't be inherited) by the Monarch.

- In DK the titles are empty, there are no privileges for nobles.

-------------------------

Lars Holstein Jensen would like to know why Joachim's children are HH and not HRH, despite being in the line of succession.

Jon Bloch Skipper explains that HRH are in DK used by the Heir, the Heir's spouse. Younger children of the Monarch and their spouses. The husband of a reigning queen and the children of the Heir and their spouses.
Everybody else are titled HH.

--------------------

Tom Kaalund Sixhoi would like to know the title of Queen Ingrid after the death of Frederik IX.

Jon Bloch Skipper explains that her full title was Her Majesty Queen Ingrid of Denmark.
Queen Ingrid was not keen on the title of Enkedronning = Dovager. It reminded her of the widow of Frederik VIII, Dovager louise and such she requested being addressed as Enkedronning i.e. Dovager.

 

[Mbruno]

Summary of three Q&A in Billed Bladet #17, 2017.

Here a Stine Gotfredsen would like to know how you become countess and baroness.

Jon Bloch Skipper explains that you either inherit the title or marry into the title. - Or as in the case with Countess Alexandra it's bestowed honorary and personally (it can't be inherited) by the Monarch.

Can the Danish monarch grant new, hereditary titles of nobility ?

 

[Muhler]

Can the Danish monarch grant new, hereditary titles of nobility ?

Yes. She made PH Count of Montepezat and their children and grandchildren inherit that title.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The queen created her sons Count of Monpezat, hereditary for their male-line descendants:

Pressemeddelelse

Amalienborg, den 30. april 2008

Hendes Majestæt Dronningen har besluttet, at Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsen samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim tillægges titel af ’greve af Monpezat’. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachims kommende ægtefælle frk. Marie Cavallier vil som følge heraf føre titlen ’grevinde af Monpezat’.

Titlen føres endvidere af efterkommere født i lovligt ægteskab, i overensstemmelse med de almindelige regler, der gælder herom, hvilket vil sige, at titlen ’greve af Monpezat’ videreføres af mandlige descendenter, medens kvindelige descendenter fører titlen ’komtesse af Monpezat’.

Der er tale om en ny, yderligere titel der kan anvendes i tilknytning til de eksisterende. Titlen berører ikke de nugældende prædikater. Navn og titel vil herefter i kort form eksempelvis kunne være:

. Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprins Frederik, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary, grevinde af Monpezat
. Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Isabella, komtesse af Monpezat

Eventuelle henvendelser på denne pressemeddelelse bedes rettet til Kabinetssekretariatet på telefon 3340 2484.


Henning Fode
Hendes Majestæt Dronningens Kabinetssekretær

Princess Dagmar (1890-1961), daughter of King Frederik VIII married the untitled nobleman Jørgen Castenskjold in 1922 without him or any of their descendants receiving any titles and without her being stripped of her royal title (atleast as far is I can tell).

Princess Dagmar was indeed stripped of her royal title, becoming Mrs. Castenskiold. Princess Elisabeth did not marry her partner Claus Hermansen for the reason that she would have become Mrs. Hermansen.

 

[MidwestMom]

The actor Sir Roger Moore died today. Apparently he was a friend of the DRF - I remember seeing a picture of him and his wife at Mary and Frederik's wedding. According to the news report I read, the funeral will be in Monaco. I wonder if any of the DRF will attend.

 

[Muhler]

The actor Sir Roger Moore died today. Apparently he was a friend of the DRF - I remember seeing a picture of him and his wife at Mary and Frederik's wedding. According to the news report I read, the funeral will be in Monaco. I wonder if any of the DRF will attend.

I don't think so.
It was more his wife, who mingled in circles around the DRF. I think a wreath is about the most to be expected.

 

[Curryong]

I hope the Crown Prince do attend Sir Roger's funeral as he was an invited guest at their wedding.

However, I've also got a question. The offspring of the monarch and the children of the heir are all HRHs at the moment, I understand. Does that styling ever drop back to HH? For instance are Isabella, Vincent and Josephine HRHs for life or, after the death of their father King Frederik, do they automatically then become His or Her Highnesses, giving way to Christian's children? I just think if Christian himself has four or five children there are going to be quite a lot of HRHs still buzzing around for the next seventy to eighty years.

 

[Countessmeout]

No unlike the Dutch, degree to the throne doesn't effect ones title or place. Like in UK, once a HrH always. The children of the monarch, and children of their heir apparent. Even when Christian is king, his siblings will still be the children of the former king. Their kids, like Joachims, will be HH. Like Joachim won't be HH when his brother is king. Princess benedikte is still hrh even though her sister is queen. If she outlives her sister, and her nephew is king, nothing will change.

Roger attended the weddings of both Joachim and Fred. But it's not uncommon to see celebrity guests. His wife is a very wealthy Danish-Swedish socialite, thanks to the fortunes of her first two husbands. I'd be surprised if either prince attended though it would be nice to see. They attended events at the Monaco palace. A Grimmauld presence, considering the funeral is in Monaco, may be more likely.

 

[Lady Ingahild]

Does anyone knows what is the event that shows at 51:05?

Sorry, this is the video I was referring to.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Right here.
But it's written in archaic Danish though:
https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=45894

And summarized very briefly and simplified:
§1 - In case the Monarch is absent (sick, insane, away from the country or disappeared, held captive and so on) the Heir takes over as Regent.
If the Heir is a minor, or also absent or otherwise unable to take over, the State Council will immediately call a session in the Parliament in order to appoint a Rigsforstander.
The Parliament will also be called in to determine whether the Heir should take over as Regent on a more permanent basis.

§2 - If there is a risk of the Monarch dying before the Heir comes of age, the Monarch will together with the Parliament appoint a Rigsforstander, who will act on behalf of the Heir until he/she comes of age.

§3 - The same thing applies if the Heir dies while still being a minor, but while a Rigsforstander is appointed. The the oldest child of the Heir will become King. (Monarch).
(The old system with the king is dead, long live the king still applies. The Heir automatically becomes king, but cannot rule until he/she is an adult.)

§4 - If the Heir is abroad when the Monarch dies, the Parliament will state a certain time period within which the Heir must return and at the same time decide whether a Rigsforstander is to be appointed.
(Beforehand it could take weeks even months to return to DK. Nowadays Frederik can be back in DK within 24 hours. If not the Parliament will simply appoint Joachim as Rigsforstander until Frederik returns.)

§5 - The Rigsforstander must be a Prince in line to the throne or an adult man, who belongs to the Lutheran church and is a Danish citizen.
(Today a Rigsforstander can be a woman.)

§6 - No one can act as Rigsforstander until he/she adheres to the §7 in the Constitution. - That means signing a pledge to obey the Constitution.

§7 - Constitutionally speaking a Rigsforstander acts as the monarch in anything but name and also enjoys the same immunity as the monarch. The ministers are responsible for the country being run by a government.

§8 - If the Rigsforstander cannot, is unable to, will not act or steps down, the Parliament will immediately appoint a new Rigsforstander.

§9 - In case there is no Rigsforstander in place or in periods where the Rigsforstander no longer functions, the State Council will temporary acts on behalf of a Rigsforstander until a new one is appointed.
(Denmark must never be without a head of state or someone acting on behalf of the head of state - not even for a minute. Because constitutionally speaking all authority is enacted on behalf of the Monarch or on behalf of the Regent or Rigsforstander who acts on behalf of the King. That includes the government who govern on behalf of the Monarch. No Monarch, no government. That's why there is always the Regent or Rigsforstander in place when QMII is abroad for more than a day - and it gets interesting when her plane is grounded due to bad weather as we experienced recently.)

Muhler, thank you for summarizing the statute.
Could a Prince(ss) who is not a Lutheran or not a Danish citizen act as Rigsforstander?
How was the appointment of women as Rigsforstander authorized, as the statute states that only men may act as Rigsforstander?

 

[Muhler]

Muhler, thank you for summarizing the statute.
Could a Prince(ss) who is not a Lutheran or not a Danish citizen act as Rigsforstander?
How was the appointment of women as Rigsforstander authorized, as the statute states that only men may act as Rigsforstander?

The amendment to this legislation about women were added later than 1871. Not sure when, perhaps when women got the right to vote or with the latest change of the Constitution in 1953.
I think (not 100 % sure though, will have to check) that you still have to be a member of the State Church, i.e. a Lutheran in order to act as Rigsforstander, because the Monarch is also head of the state Church, and since a Rigsforstander act as monarch in anything but name, that would be a necessity IMO.

But back to your question. The princess in question would have to be a Danish citizen, be a member of the State Church (PH, mind you, is also a member of the State Church, but he seems to be leaning towards a kind of Buddism. So it need not have much to do with your personal belief.) she would have to sign a pledge to obey the Constitution. - And of course be of sound mind and worthy (so no criminals here) and that's it.
So our Marie and Mary can act as Rigsforstander. It would be very unlikely for Marie IMO, but certainly a possibility for Mary.

 

[Queen Claude]

What will be the surname for the descendants who are not princes? Monpezat?

Do we know yet if the children of Frederik's daughters will be princes or princesses?

 

[Muhler]

What will be the surname for the descendants who are not princes? Monpezat?

Do we know yet if the children of Frederik's daughters will be princes or princesses?

To the second question:
They are in line for the throne, and pretty close to the throne at that, so they are likely to remain princes/princesses unless they drop the title due to marriage or simply wish to opt out.
Ultimately it will be Frederik's decision. The only title and status he cannot change is Christian's.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think it is only tradition that the heir apparent is known as Crown Prince, so that Christian's title would technically be King Frederik's decision as well.

 

[Muhler]

No, the Law of Succession states very clearly that the Monarch cannot change the title of or bypass the crown prince/ss.
Everybody else, yes. But not the crown prince.

- Presumably that was to avoid a future civil war, in case there was a dispute about who was to get on the throne.