Hendrik-Jan77
Nobility
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Messages
- 361
- City
- Arnhem
- Country
- Netherlands
Where did the coffin go to after the church service?
According to the gossip, and I must emphasize gossip, even though I find it plausible, is that the Rosenborgs certainly uttered a disapproving "hm!" when Ingolf associated the DRF.
Why exactly they fell out I don't know. But I can come up with a couple of suggestions:
A) Prince Knud didn't feel his brother supported him against the public and political mood back in 1953. Felt betrayed you may say.
B) The disappointment and the pretty open public sentiment that Prince Knud and his children were not only too ugly to represent Denmark, but also too stupid, would of course have hurt deeply. And these feelings needed an outlet. So Knud and his branch of the family vented his anger against Frederik IX's branch. Whether that was justified or rational is besides the point, as it often is when it comes to feelings.
Frederik IX has said that he wasn't that happy with his daughter having to take on the burden of being a monarch, so I don't think he ever "lobbied" in favor of the change. - That would have made a convenient suggestion C.
Was it the same way as Prince Carl-Phipp of Sweden lost the title of Crown Prince?
It was worse in my opinion, because Carl Philip was still a baby at the time whereas Knud was a grown-up man and had been heir presumptive for a while ( six years , I think).
In any case, it was a political decision and a basic tenet of constitutional monarchy is that the King is not responsible for political decisions.
By contrast, there was a clear expectation that Prince Knud and Prince Ingolf would become Kings of Denmark since Queen Ingrid (as written in the article Stefan posted above) was advised by her physicians in 1946 not to have further children.
Why? What happened to her? Any complications during the birth of Anne Marie?
He might still mind had a son been born, but I would imagine that in the time, when daughters didn't commonly inherit, he was bound to be very mch peeved at being displaced by a niece.. and esp if he and his own family were sneered at as too ugly and stupid to be King and Crown prince...
It does sound plausible if different members of Count Ingolf's family did not necessarily start desiring to reconcile simultaneously (though I suspect kbk was asking, and I would also like to know, if the rumors of "the Rosenborgs'" disapproval referred to Count Ingolf's mother, brother, or even the other Rosenborgs, Count Oluf or Prince Waldemar's families for example, if they chose a side).
Ideally, yes. And as I understand it, that’s how the king approached it. But the prince vocally complained that the plebiscite was worded in such a way that he said tricked voters, then he appealed to Stalin (!) based on a clause in an 1814 treaty that theoretically gave Russia a say.
If anything, his actions indicated that, had he become king, he might not have been willing to do as modern kings must and stand back from politics.
He might have been heir presumptive but with a strong emphasis on presumptive. The throne was never Knud's to inherit. In theory, Frederik and Ingrid could have welcomed a son shortly before the succession was changed in 1953 (uncommon but not unheard of – Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was 42 going on 43 when she gave birth to the current Duke) which would've displaced Knud as the heir presumptive – would you have thought it equally as horrible for Knud had a little Prince Christian been born in 1952?
The change was not retroactive, it applied to the issue of King Christian X and in the event that theoretically a son could be born, Margrethe was never Heir apparent but rather heir presumptive.In any case, it was a political decision and a basic tenet of constitutional monarchy is that the King is not responsible for political decisions.
Personally, I think no change in the law should be retroactive, so , from that point of view, it was wrong for Knud to lose the Crown when he was already an adult and had at least an expectation of right. That was, however, the decision of the Danish parliament and was taken following the proper constitutional procedure, so there is no basis to question it.
The change was not retroactive, it applied to the issue of King Christian X and in the event that theoretically a son could be born, Margrethe was never Heir apparent but rather heir presumptive.
However, it is not as if it was a total surprise when as early as 1939 a plebiscite was held and defeated. Add to that the incredible societal changes that happened as Europe came out of the WWII. The entire fabric of life had been forced to change and, while some norms were easy to step back into, others weren't. Women who had worked throughout the war now saw a different future. In fact, the reign of King Frederik IX saw some of the greatest societal changes in Danish history.
The Princess had only one order I believe The Order of the Elephant,does that have to be returned upon death?
That's extremely interesting. Is there any source online to the detailed history of particular chains or elephants?Yes.
Some of the orders are very old, having been recycled for generations.
Especially the porcelain elephants are a story in their own right. They differ in design depending on when they were made. And experts can tell from when a particular order (chain and star) and/or an elephant was made
That's extremely interesting. Is there any source online to the detailed history of particular chains or elephants?
The Princess had only one order I believe The Order of the Elephant,does that have to be returned upon death?
If Princess Elisabeth was a guest at a State Banquet of a visiting Sovereign, it would surprise me if she had no foreign Order. Or did Elisabeth not engage in incoming visits of (in her lifetime) Juliana, Beatrix and Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands? Usually someone as Elisabeth would then receive the House Order of Orange as a personal token of appreciation.
So while she no doubt had many more orders and medals, these two may very well have been the ones she wished to present at her funeral.
That's a very good question!
My (brutal) "definition" is that a generation-event is an event where the DRF don't feel like showing up in force. And as a consequence use this to avoid having to explain why they all attend event A, but only show up in limited numbers for event B.
It would perhaps also be a little bit hypocritical if M&F and J&M showed up. AFAIK hardly ever associated with Elisabeth. QMII and her sisters certainly didn't come knocking on her door very often!
H.H. Prinsesse Elisabeth | Kongehuset
Not according to the official page/bio at kongehuset.dk before she passed away.
"Dekorationer" at the bottom.
The Trond Noren Isaksen article is interesting. I can see how Knud's decision to name his second son Christian (7 years after Fredeik and Ingrid's marriage and 2 years after Margrethe's birth) was not appreciated at all and a clear message to his brother: forget about having a son. It will be my family who will continue the royal line.
I believe the two orders displayed on her coffin defined Elisabeth.
A member of the DRF and the succession and a hardworking trustworthy civil servant with more than 40 years of service behind her.
So while she no doubt had many more orders and medals, these two may very well have been the ones she wished to present at her funeral.
I believe the two orders displayed on her coffin defined Elisabeth.
A member of the DRF and the succession and a hardworking trustworthy civil servant with more than 40 years of service behind her.
However, it is not as if it was a total surprise when as early as 1939 a plebiscite was held and defeated. Add to that the incredible societal changes that happened as Europe came out of the WWII. The entire fabric of life had been forced to change and, while some norms were easy to step back into, others weren't. Women who had worked throughout the war now saw a different future. In fact, the reign of King Frederik IX saw some of the greatest societal changes in Danish history.
Re: Knud appealing to Stalin, etc., I learned about those details via his obituary in the New York Times. As I understand it, the Prime Minister who served at that time is the source of that information.
There’s no way around the fact that Knud was in an uncomfortable position. Many signs point to him not taking it well. Lesser things have fractured relations in far less grand families. Ingolf has clearly worked to mend some bridges, but it sure seems from the outside looking in that Margarethe and Elisabeth probably never spent much time together and were simply never close enough for the Queen to feel a need to overlook tradition and custom for her cousin.