Death and Cremation of Princess Elisabeth: June 19 and 25, 2018

[Tatiana Maria]

BB will send live from Princess Elisabeth's funeral tomorrow:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-direkte-fra-prinsesse-elisabeths-bisaettelse

They will start at 12.15 when the mourners start arriving at the church. The casket will be carried out from the church around 13.30.

So keep an eye out for the links on BB's site tomorrow.

Thanks, Muhler. Will her funeral be as small and private as Prince Henrik's was?

We don't know if they ever asked permission to marry. Only speculation.

Carina is certainly an exception to the rule, even in modern times. Very rarely would a non-spouse be given such a de-facto position in any royal house. Lilian and Bertil were prime example. In his father's life time, Bertil and Lilian had to be discreet, and Lilian certainly didn't get de-facto status.

Husbands of royal princesses remain private citizens. Even Elizabeth had married with permission, her partner would not have had any role.

Maybe Margrethe wouldn't have allowed it. My point simply is you cant base what would happen off how her brothers were treated. The fact that it was under different reigns makes a very big difference.

I completely agree that Queen Margrethe II was not bound to make the same decisions that her father made. But in light of Princess Elisabeth's comments that she would have lost her title and role if she married her partner, I think she must have known what decision the Queen would have made in her and Claus's case.

My guess is that if she had married with the Queen's permission and kept her role after marriage, her husband would have become part of the Royal House. Princess Benedikte's husband stated that it was his decision to turn down a Danish royal title and continue being a private citizen. Apart from Henrik, he was the only husband of a princess of Denmark with the right of succession since 1853.

Why wouldn't they? She isn't some distant relative they had no contact with. I would expect the queen and a few others, at least her sisters.

Possibly, tommy100 was alluding to the feud between their parents which was caused by the 1953 Act of Succession.

 

[mybags]

If any foreign royal attends, I would expect it to be Princess Astrid of Norway. Princess Astrid was present at the funeral of Princess Caroline-Mathilde in 1995 and also at the funeral of Elisabeth's brother, Count Christian, in 2013.

 

[Muhler]

Here is the video link from BB. - It will be more than an hour before they will show anything https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-direkte-fra-prinsesse-elisabeths-bisaettelse

Thanks, Muhler. Will her funeral be as small and private as Prince Henrik's was?

I think it will be a standard Danish funeral, albeit with considerably more people attending.
So what you will see is pretty much what you would see if an ordinary Dane was to be buried.
However, I'm not sure BB will send from inside the church. That depends on whether they will be allowed.

I think there are a number of considerations to be considered in relations to Elisabeth not marrying.
It's no secret that the relationship between Frederik IX and his brother and nephew was pretty cool. Icy, according to the tribal-gossip.
Count Ingolf has done a lot to mend the relationship, which I believe is amiable today, at least in regards to M&F and certainly in regards to J&M.
Now, back in the 70's the Danish court was still very conservative, some would say downright old-fashioned. QMII was new in the role, and insecure and I doubt she would have reverted a decision that was laid out, so to speak, by her father, whom she adored. And with her mother a new widow. - Not to mention her own feelings for the Rosenborgs, whatever they were at the time (*).
So why QMII in the 1990's might have accepted a Chris O'Neil solution, I doubt very much that would even have been considered in the 70's.

And there is a third matter to consider.
Elisabeth is comparable to Joachim's children. There is a need to keep the members of the DRF relatively low, so it's IMO doubtful whether their wives/husbands will get a royal title. Even though I think they will retain their own title, unless they relinquish it themselves.
Also, in the 70's Queen Ingrid was still very active, so they strictly speaking didn't require a reserve for QMII and PH that much.
That may also have influenced the mindset of QMII and her advisors at the court.

(*) We know that QMII can be pretty stubborn! She refused to visit Greece until the GRF, so to speak, had officially been welcomed home again. That despite some political pressure.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think there are a number of considerations to be considered in relations to Elisabeth not marrying.
It's no secret that the relationship between Frederik IX and his brother and nephew was pretty cool. Icy, according to the tribal-gossip.
Count Ingolf has done a lot to mend the relationship, which I believe is amiable today, at least in regards to M&F and certainly in regards to J&M.
Now, back in the 70's the Danish court was still very conservative, some would say downright old-fashioned. QMII was new in the role, and insecure and I doubt she would have reverted a decision that was laid out, so to speak, by her father, whom she adored. And with her mother a new widow. - Not to mention her own feelings for the Rosenborgs, whatever they were at the time (*).
So why QMII in the 1990's might have accepted a Chris O'Neil solution, I doubt very much that would even have been considered in the 70's.

And there is a third matter to consider.
Elisabeth is comparable to Joachim's children. There is a need to keep the members of the DRF relatively low, so it's IMO doubtful whether their wives/husbands will get a royal title. Even though I think they will retain their own title, unless they relinquish it themselves.
Also, in the 70's Queen Ingrid was still very active, so they strictly speaking didn't require a reserve for QMII and PH that much.
That may also have influenced the mindset of QMII and her advisors at the court.

(*) We know that QMII can be pretty stubborn! She refused to visit Greece until the GRF, so to speak, had officially been welcomed home again. That despite some political pressure.

Thanks, Muhler. That is a good consideration of the circumstances in the 1970s and 1980s.

It is worth noting though that in the 1990s, the Queen accepted Alexandra Manley, a commoner, as a princess, and nevertheless, she obviously did not change her decision regarding Claus Hermansen, who was alive then.

Yes, setting limits on the increase of the royal house and Princess Elisabeth's position as a mere cousin of the monarch certainly could have influenced the Queen. I guess we will only know in case one of Prince Joachim's children marries during her reign. (If she allows Prince Nikolai to retain his title after marrying a commoner, it suggests other influences in her earlier decisions, as Nikolai's position is the same as Elisabeth's and the royal house is already larger than it was in the 1990s.)

 

[Mbruno]

Here is the video link from BB. - It will be more than an hour before they will show anything https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...-direkte-fra-prinsesse-elisabeths-bisaettelse



I think it will be a standard Danish funeral, albeit with considerably more people attending.
So what you will see is pretty much what you would see if an ordinary Dane was to be buried.
However, I'm not sure BB will send from inside the church. That depends on whether they will be allowed.

I think there are a number of considerations to be considered in relations to Elisabeth not marrying.
It's no secret that the relationship between Frederik IX and his brother and nephew was pretty cool. Icy, according to the tribal-gossip.
Count Ingolf has done a lot to mend the relationship, which I believe is amiable today, at least in regards to M&F and certainly in regards to J&M.
Now, back in the 70's the Danish court was still very conservative, some would say downright old-fashioned. QMII was new in the role, and insecure and I doubt she would have reverted a decision that was laid out, so to speak, by her father, whom she adored. And with her mother a new widow. - Not to mention her own feelings for the Rosenborgs, whatever they were at the time (*).
So why QMII in the 1990's might have accepted a Chris O'Neil solution, I doubt very much that would even have been considered in the 70's.

And there is a third matter to consider.
Elisabeth is comparable to Joachim's children. There is a need to keep the members of the DRF relatively low, so it's IMO doubtful whether their wives/husbands will get a royal title. Even though I think they will retain their own title, unless they relinquish it themselves.
Also, in the 70's Queen Ingrid was still very active, so they strictly speaking didn't require a reserve for QMII and PH that much.
That may also have influenced the mindset of QMII and her advisors at the court.

(*) We know that QMII can be pretty stubborn! She refused to visit Greece until the GRF, so to speak, had officially been welcomed home again. That despite some political pressure.

The Queen didn’t have to reverse a decision made by her father, which by the way she couldn’t do ianyway. She just had to make a different decision with respect to Princess Elisabeth’s marriage. That would be like the Swedish case where King Carl Gustaf consented to Prince Bertil’s marriage even though his grandfather did not consent to Bertil’s brother’s marriages and stripped them of their royal titles and styles. I don’t see why it would be impossible to treat Elisabeth differently from her brothers, especially considering that there was a change of reign.

 

[Muhler]

Indeed we shall, Tatiana.

However while Elisabeth is a mere cousin, Joachim is after all the son of the Monarch, that's a big difference. Especially sine Frederik was unmarried - and at the time many considered Joachim more suited as the next king than Frederik.

Okay, BB will resume transmission from outside the church at 13.25.

QMII and Benedikte was there. I don't know if Queen Anne-Marie was there as well.
The DRF consider this a generation event. That means they will only be represented by members of the DRF of the same generation as Princess Elisabeth.

The Queen didn’t have reverse a decision made by her father, which by the way she couldn’t do ianyway. She just had to make a different decision with respect to Princess Elisabeth’s marriage. That would be like the Swedish case where King Carl Gustaf consented to Prince Bertil’s marriage even though his grandfather did not consent to Bertil’s brother’s marriages and stripped them of their royal titles and styles. I don’t see why it would be impossible to treat Elisabeth differently from her brothers, especially considering that there was a change of reign.

It wasn't impossible.

What I am suggesting is that QMII might have been reluctant to go against a precedence set by her father - especially when she was new in the job.

 

[kbk]

Anne-Marie came with Benedikte. I also saw Toshiro Suzuki, the Japanese ambassador, entering the church not so long before the royals arrived.
A bit too short and cold greeting by the Queen with Ingolf, Sussie and their nieces, IMO.

 

[Mbruno]

It wasn't impossible.

What I am suggesting is that QMII might have been reluctant to go against a precedence set by her father - especially when she was new in the job.

Maybe I did not understand what you were saying, but there is no provision in the Danish constitution that allows a monarch to reinstate the succession rights of a person who forfeited them by marrying without royal consent. So, in my humble opinion, the decisions that were made regarding Ekusabeth’s brothers could not be legally reversed,, However, there is no reason why QMIi could not have made a different decision in Elisabeth’s case. Again, the situation looks analogous to me to what happened in Sweden involving King Carl Gustaf and Prince Bertil.

As for Prince Knud allegedly not getting along well with his brother, that would be understandable if true.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

QMII and Benedikte was there. I don't know if Queen Anne-Marie was there as well.
The DRF consider this a generation event. That means they will only be represented by members of the DRF of the same generation as Princess Elisabeth.

That seems a fitting way to honor the oldest member of the Royal House. Just to clarify, which kinds of events are usually generation events in the Danish royal family?

On another note, given that you referred earlier to the coolness "between Frederik IX and his brother and nephew", did King Frederik IX and Hereditary Prince Knud draw their respective children into their feud? It is rather unfortunate if that happened, but I am glad that Count Ingolf managed to mend the relationship.

And thank you for updating us - I hope we will see more of the guests.

Anne-Marie came with Benedikte. I also saw Toshiro Suzuki, the Japanese ambassador, entering the church not so long before the royals arrived.
I saw a bit too short and cold greeting by the Queen with Ingold, Sussie and their nieces, IMO.

Interesting. Did Princess Elisabeth work at the Danish embassy in Japan?

 

[kbk]

Interesting. Did Princess Elisabeth work at the Danish embassy in Japan?

She was the patron (protektor) of the Danish-Japanese Society. She was also patron of the Brazilian one but dont' know if their amb's also attending. Would have to re-watch the video. During her time in the Foreign Service, she was posted in Washington, D.C. and Geneva.

The Japanese Imperial Household Agency maintains a list of "Distinguished guests from overseas such as State Guests, official guests" on its website, and it includes the visit of Princess Elisabeth of Denmark and Klavs Helweg-Larsen (an architect, according to a source I found, her partner in 2000-2004) in July 2001, when they were received by the Emperor and Empress. What was the purpose of this visit? Don't know, but interested.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She was the patron (protektor) of the Danish-Japanese Society. She was also patron of the Brazilian one but dont' know if their amb's also attending. Would have to re-watch the video. During her time in the Foreign Service, she was posted in Washington, D.C. and Geneva.

The Japanese Imperial Household Agency maintains a list of "Distinguished guests from overseas such as State Guests, official guests" on its website, and it includes the visit of Princess Elisabeth of Denmark and Klavs Helweg-Larsen (an architect, according to a source I found, her partner in 2000-2004) in July 2001, when they were received by the Emperor and Empress. What was the purpose of this visit? Don't know, but interested .

Thank you! I wonder why those were amongst the few patronages that she retained until the end (I assume she had many more of them when she was younger).

I don't believe the IHA normally invites unmarried partners, so that is indeed very interesting.

 

[iceflower]

.

Here are some photos of today's ceremony:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 ** ppe gallery **


** dr.dk: Prinsesse Elisabeth bisat: Dronningen sagde farvel til sin kusine **


** dailymail: Queen Margrethe II of Denmark, 78, leads sombre mourners at the funeral of her cousin..**

 

[kbk]

Count Ingolf and two of Christian of Rosenborg's grandsons, Julius and Ludwig I assume, seemed very moved. They were crying when the coffin left the church.
Princess Benedikte's resemblance with the late Princess Elisabeth and Count Ingolf is striking. The Queen has also many similarities, while Anne-Marie does not!

 

[FasterB]

I'm surprised to read the "Kongernes konge" (King of all kings) were one of the songs at Pss Elisabeth's funeral.

LINK: http://kongehuset.dk/nyheder/salmer-ved-hh-prinsesse-elisabeths-bisaettelse

 

[An Ard Ri]

Looks like a small intimate funeral for the late Princess and the only sound was the tolling of the mourning bell as her coffin departed.Was so nice to see the 3 sisters together at the funeral.

 

[Muhler]

I'm surprised to read the "Kongernes konge" (King of all kings) were one of the songs at Pss Elisabeth's funeral.

LINK: Salmer ved H.H. Prinsesse Elisabeths bisættelse | Kongehuset

Why is that?

Maybe I did not understand what you were saying, but there is no provision in the Danish constitution that allows a monarch to reinstate the succession rights of a person who forfeited them by marrying without royal consent. So, in my humble opinion, the decisions that were made regarding Ekusabeth’s brothers could not be legally reversed,, However, there is no reason why QMIi could not have made a different decision in Elisabeth’s case. Again, the situation looks analogous to me to what happened in Sweden involving King Carl Gustaf and Prince Bertil.

As for Prince Knud allegedly not getting along well with his brother, that would be understandable if true.

Elisabeth retained her place in the succession because she remained unmarried.
While QMII cannot reinstate anyone into the Line of Succession once kicked out, the Parliament can. - But that's an academic discussion because that will only happen if there is a lack of heirs.
As for why QMII did not offer Princess Elisabeth the option of remaining a princess once she married: The only one who can answer that question with certainty is QMII. I merely offered a number of IMO plausible possibilities.

That seems a fitting way to honor the oldest member of the Royal House. Just to clarify, which kinds of events are usually generation events in the Danish royal family?

On another note, given that you referred earlier to the coolness "between Frederik IX and his brother and nephew", did King Frederik IX and Hereditary Prince Knud draw their respective children into their feud? It is rather unfortunate if that happened, but I am glad that Count Ingolf managed to mend the relationship.

That's a very good question!
My (brutal) "definition" is that a generation-event is an event where the DRF don't feel like showing up in force. And as a consequence use this to avoid having to explain why they all attend event A, but only show up in limited numbers for event B.
It would perhaps also be a little bit hypocritical if M&F and J&M showed up. AFAIK hardly ever associated with Elisabeth. QMII and her sisters certainly didn't come knocking on her door very often!

They probably did, whether they intended to or not. Children tend to side with their children, also against their cousins.
That Count Ingolf, at least after the death of his father, chose to and succeeded in stretching an arm out and build up a good, personal relationship with the DRF is of course a good thing.
But according to the tribal gossip, that was frowned a bit upon among the Rosenborgs.

 

[JR76]

I'm surprised to read the "Kongernes konge" (King of all kings) were one of the songs at Pss Elisabeth's funeral.

LINK: http://kongehuset.dk/nyheder/salmer-ved-hh-prinsesse-elisabeths-bisaettelse

Well it is a very patriotic song. I've sung it at a few Danish services and can gladly say that it's one of a few hymns that fits my dark, low voice.

 

[FasterB]

Why is that?

Well it is a very patriotic song. I've sung it at a few Danish services and can gladly say that it's one of a few hymns that fits my dark, low voice.

And add to that that the song is not a psalm in our Church Hymn book.

 

[JR76]

And add to that that the song is not a psalm in our Church Hymn book.

It isn't? It's the one called Hærens salme right? Maybe it's military connection is the clue to why it was sung at the funeral.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Was the officiating priest a Court Chaplain or the Parish Priest? (Not sure if Lutherans have Parish Priests).

 

[FasterB]

It isn't? It's the one called Hærens salme right? Maybe it's military connection is the clue to why it was sung at the funeral.

Nope, the song is not in "Den danske Salmebog". Yes, it is the now called "Hærens salme". I know that it is song/played when fallen soldiers return to Denmark. But not in the church. It is song in the hangar when the coffin has left the plane and are placed on Danish soil.

​

Was the officiating priest a Court Chaplain or the Parish Priest? (Not sure if Lutherans have Parish Priests).

He is the former bishop over Copenhagen, Erik Normann Svendsen. He is also the former priest for the DRF.

 

[kbk]

But according to the tribal gossip, that was frowned a bit upon among the Rosenborgs.

Do you mean that his brother, mother (she died in 1995, outliving Knud for 19 years) and sister were not good with Ingolf re-establishing familial relations with the core of the RF?

Anyway, its interesting, this breach right in the two sides of a family. I mean, they were really close family, brothers, in-laws and first cousins! That's strange... All because of Knud really wanted to become a king? Or maybe he really believed in traditional rules governing succession? And who was isolating from who?
Offtop: what was the popular support for the changes, allowing the daughters to succeed?
Again: I wonder about family relations of the Queen with the more remote lines of the RH, the Rosenborgs from Prince Valdemar's side and, for example, Prince George Valdemar and Princess Anne. What about Prince Gorm?

 

[Stefan]

Do you mean that his brother, mother (she died in 1995, outliving Knud for 19 years) and sister were not good with Ingolf re-establishing familial relations with the core of the RF?

Anyway, its interesting, this breach right in the two sides of a family. I mean, they were really close family, brothers, in-laws and first cousins! That's strange... All because of Knud really wanted to become a king? Or maybe he really believed in traditional rules governing succession? And who was isolating from who?
Offtop: what was the popular support for the changes, allowing the daughters to succeed?
Again: I wonder about family relations of the Queen with the more remote lines of the RH, the Rosenborgs from Prince Valdemar's side and, for example, Prince George Valdemar and Princess Anne. What about Prince Gorm?

Here is some Information about what happened at the time fo the change of the succession law in 1953 and it's consequences for the Family realtionships. Trond Norén Isaksen: The man who would be king

 

[Muhler]

Do you mean that his brother, mother (she died in 1995, outliving Knud for 19 years) and sister were not good with Ingolf re-establishing familial relations with the core of the RF?

Anyway, its interesting, this breach right in the two sides of a family. I mean, they were really close family, brothers, in-laws and first cousins! That's strange... All because of Knud really wanted to become a king? Or maybe he really believed in traditional rules governing succession? And who was isolating from who?
Offtop: what was the popular support for the changes, allowing the daughters to succeed?
Again: I wonder about family relations of the Queen with the more remote lines of the RH, the Rosenborgs from Prince Valdemar's side and, for example, Prince George Valdemar and Princess Anne. What about Prince Gorm?

According to the gossip, and I must emphasize gossip, even though I find it plausible, is that the Rosenborgs certainly uttered a disapproving "hm!" when Ingolf associated the DRF.

Why exactly they fell out I don't know. But I can come up with a couple of suggestions:
A) Prince Knud didn't feel his brother supported him against the public and political mood back in 1953. Felt betrayed you may say.
B) The disappointment and the pretty open public sentiment that Prince Knud and his children were not only too ugly to represent Denmark, but also too stupid, would of course have hurt deeply. And these feelings needed an outlet. So Knud and his branch of the family vented his anger against Frederik IX's branch. Whether that was justified or rational is besides the point, as it often is when it comes to feelings.

Frederik IX has said that he wasn't that happy with his daughter having to take on the burden of being a monarch, so I don't think he ever "lobbied" in favor of the change. - That would have made a convenient suggestion C.

 

[FasterB]

Frederik IX has said that he wasn't that happy with his daughter having to take on the burden of being a monarch, so I don't think he ever "lobbied" in favor of the change. - That would have made a convenient suggestion C.

Maybe that King Frederik IX didn't lobby in favor of change, but word has it that Queen Ingrid did ...

 

[polyesco]

pictures from the DRF website
Prinsesse Elisabeths bisættelse | Kongehuset
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bkc396cgSMA/?taken-by=detdanskekongehus
https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.ne...=aa6e7d6169137de868e87a9e993dd076&oe=5B9FCFF1

the flower arrangement says "Daisy" lovely
http://kongehuset.dk/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow/public/b3_002.jpg?itok=mihH76Ut

 

[Mbruno]

Maybe that King Frederik IX didn't lobby in favor of change, but word has it that Queen Ingrid did ...

In any case, it was a political decision and a basic tenet of constitutional monarchy is that the King is not responsible for political decisions.

Personally, I think no change in the law should be retroactive, so , from that point of view, it was wrong for Knud to lose the Crown when he was already an adult and had at least an expectation of right. That was, however, the decision of the Danish parliament and was taken following the proper constitutional procedure, so there is no basis to question it.

 

[Biri]

In any case, it was a political decision and a basic tenet of constitutional monarchy is that the King is not responsible for political decisions.

Personally, I think no change in the law should be retrioactive, so , from that point of view, it was wrong for Knud to lose the Crown when he was already an adult and had at least an expectation of right. That was, however, the decision of the Danish parliament and was taken following the proper constitutional procedure, so there is no basis to question it.

Was it the same way as Prince Carl-Phipp of Sweden lost the title of Crown Prince?

 

[Mbruno]

Was it the same way as Prince Carl-Phipp of Sweden lost the title of Crown Prince?

It was worse in my opinion, because Carl Philip was still a baby at the time whereas Knud was a grown-up man and had been heir presumptive for a while ( six years , I think).

 

[JR76]

Regarding the comparison between Princess Elisabeth and Prince Bertil it was clearly communicated at the time that he was allowed to keep his title and place in the succession because of his great sacrifice for Sweden. The King chose to treat his sister Christina the same way as their other sisters had been treated by their grandfather by removing the Royal status of those three that married non-royals. I think this is a clue to why Elisabeth's marriage would have been treated differently than those of Joachim and Frederik, by removing her status she would've been treated like her brothers according to unofficial guidelines laid down by Queen Margrethe's father.