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  #101  
Old 06-26-2018, 05:51 AM
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I saw the video.
There is real love between the late Count Christian's 3 daughters and her late Aunt Elisabeth and their Uncle Ingolf.
Prince Knud's Chlldren had a good life , did what they wanted ,free from press etc..
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  #102  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:16 AM
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The change was not retroactive, it applied to the issue of King Christian X and in the event that theoretically a son could be born, Margrethe was never Heir apparent but rather heir presumptive.

However, it is not as if it was a total surprise when as early as 1939 a plebiscite was held and defeated. Add to that the incredible societal changes that happened as Europe came out of the WWII. The entire fabric of life had been forced to change and, while some norms were easy to step back into, others weren't. Women who had worked throughout the war now saw a different future. In fact, the reign of King Frederik IX saw some of the greatest societal changes in Danish history.
The law applied to people who were born before it came into effect, so it was retroactive in that sense.
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  #103  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:44 AM
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The Princess had only one order I believe The Order of the Elephant,does that have to be returned upon death?
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  #104  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:59 AM
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Besides the Elephant order, only the medal she received for her work in diplomacy was displayed at her funeral. That was, I believe, to emphasize her service to the public.
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  #105  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
The Princess had only one order I believe The Order of the Elephant,does that have to be returned upon death?
Yes.

Some of the orders are very old, having been recycled for generations.
Especially the porcelain elephants are a story in their own right. They differ in design depending on when they were made. And experts can tell from when a particular order (chain and star) and/or an elephant was made
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  #106  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:32 AM
kbk kbk is offline
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Yes.

Some of the orders are very old, having been recycled for generations.
Especially the porcelain elephants are a story in their own right. They differ in design depending on when they were made. And experts can tell from when a particular order (chain and star) and/or an elephant was made
That's extremely interesting. Is there any source online to the detailed history of particular chains or elephants?
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  #107  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:49 AM
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There are lots of details and lots of photos of individual elephants, but I don't know of any specific site.
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  #108  
Old 06-26-2018, 12:16 PM
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Re: Knud appealing to Stalin, etc., I learned about those details via his obituary in the New York Times. As I understand it, the Prime Minister who served at that time is the source of that information.

There’s no way around the fact that Knud was in an uncomfortable position. Many signs point to him not taking it well. Lesser things have fractured relations in far less grand families. Ingolf has clearly worked to mend some bridges, but it sure seems from the outside looking in that Margarethe and Elisabeth probably never spent much time together and were simply never close enough for the Queen to feel a need to overlook tradition and custom for her cousin.
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  #109  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
That's extremely interesting. Is there any source online to the detailed history of particular chains or elephants?
This site might be a little bit useful, but I think its mostly on the coat of arms.
Våbenbøger | Kongehuset
On the links towards the bottom of the page it takes you to the actual books.
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  #110  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
The Princess had only one order I believe The Order of the Elephant,does that have to be returned upon death?

The Royal Orders of Chivalry | The Danish Monarchy - Front Page
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  #111  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:57 PM
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If Princess Elisabeth was a guest at a State Banquet of a visiting Sovereign, it would surprise me if she had no foreign Order. Or did Elisabeth not engage in incoming visits of (in her lifetime) Juliana, Beatrix and Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands? Usually someone as Elisabeth would then receive the House Order of Orange as a personal token of appreciation.
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  #112  
Old 06-26-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
If Princess Elisabeth was a guest at a State Banquet of a visiting Sovereign, it would surprise me if she had no foreign Order. Or did Elisabeth not engage in incoming visits of (in her lifetime) Juliana, Beatrix and Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands? Usually someone as Elisabeth would then receive the House Order of Orange as a personal token of appreciation.
I believe the two orders displayed on her coffin defined Elisabeth.
A member of the DRF and the succession and a hardworking trustworthy civil servant with more than 40 years of service behind her.
So while she no doubt had many more orders and medals, these two may very well have been the ones she wished to present at her funeral.
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  #113  
Old 06-26-2018, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
So while she no doubt had many more orders and medals, these two may very well have been the ones she wished to present at her funeral.

H.H. Prinsesse Elisabeth | Kongehuset


Not according to the official page/bio at kongehuset.dk before she passed away.



"Dekorationer" at the bottom.
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  #114  
Old 06-26-2018, 03:49 PM
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The Trond Noren Isaksen article is interesting. I can see how Knud's decision to name his second son Christian (7 years after Fredeik and Ingrid's marriage and 2 years after Margrethe's birth) was not appreciated at all and a clear message to his brother: "forget about having a son; it will be my family who will continue the royal line."

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That's a very good question!
My (brutal) "definition" is that a generation-event is an event where the DRF don't feel like showing up in force. And as a consequence use this to avoid having to explain why they all attend event A, but only show up in limited numbers for event B.
It would perhaps also be a little bit hypocritical if M&F and J&M showed up. AFAIK hardly ever associated with Elisabeth. QMII and her sisters certainly didn't come knocking on her door very often!
That's exactly what I was thinking. It is a generational event because the others weren't sufficiently interested in coming and the sisters felt they had to pay their respect. Margrethe as the head of the royal family of which the deceased was a member and Benedikte and Anne Marie probably because it was easy to combine and they knew it would be appreciated by their cousin Ingolf.
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  #115  
Old 06-26-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
H.H. Prinsesse Elisabeth | Kongehuset


Not according to the official page/bio at kongehuset.dk before she passed away.



"Dekorationer" at the bottom.
Not even that many medals.
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  #116  
Old 06-26-2018, 04:07 PM
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The Trond Noren Isaksen article is interesting. I can see how Knud's decision to name his second son Christian (7 years after Fredeik and Ingrid's marriage and 2 years after Margrethe's birth) was not appreciated at all and a clear message to his brother: forget about having a son. It will be my family who will continue the royal line.
I’ve finally had time to read it and not, is it ever. Given the Danish tradition of alternating king’s names between Frederick and Christian, that was a pretty bold, clear (and presumptious) move on Knud’s part.
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  #117  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I believe the two orders displayed on her coffin defined Elisabeth.
A member of the DRF and the succession and a hardworking trustworthy civil servant with more than 40 years of service behind her.
So while she no doubt had many more orders and medals, these two may very well have been the ones she wished to present at her funeral.
When I think about Princess Astrid of Norway, she seems to have a lot of Orders. Maybe it is really the position. Princess Astrid is a sister to the King and Princess Elisabeth was " only" a cousin to the Queen. But it remains strange that she did not even had a Norwegian or Swedish Order.
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  #118  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I believe the two orders displayed on her coffin defined Elisabeth.
A member of the DRF and the succession and a hardworking trustworthy civil servant with more than 40 years of service behind her.
This was mentioned in the sermon, that each decoration represented a distinctive side to the Princess. She kept to old-fashioned ideals of devotion to the monarchy and pride in being a royal princess, yet in her career she was a trailblazer and a public servant.

How lovely that her nieces were always welcome to come to her house for coffee after school and that they were present to support her by her bedside. I can remember her poignant comments regarding feelings of loneliness in her final years.

Tale ved H.H. Prinsesse Elisabeths bisættelse | Kongehuset

Salmer ved H.H. Prinsesse Elisabeths bisættelse | Kongehuset

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
However, it is not as if it was a total surprise when as early as 1939 a plebiscite was held and defeated. Add to that the incredible societal changes that happened as Europe came out of the WWII. The entire fabric of life had been forced to change and, while some norms were easy to step back into, others weren't. Women who had worked throughout the war now saw a different future. In fact, the reign of King Frederik IX saw some of the greatest societal changes in Danish history.
The Isaksen article states that the succession question was solely introduced in the 1953 plebiscite, for the sake of increasing the turnout compared to 1939. In 1939 it was likely hoped still that Crown Prince Frederik (King Frederik IX) would have a son.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
Re: Knud appealing to Stalin, etc., I learned about those details via his obituary in the New York Times. As I understand it, the Prime Minister who served at that time is the source of that information.

There’s no way around the fact that Knud was in an uncomfortable position. Many signs point to him not taking it well. Lesser things have fractured relations in far less grand families. Ingolf has clearly worked to mend some bridges, but it sure seems from the outside looking in that Margarethe and Elisabeth probably never spent much time together and were simply never close enough for the Queen to feel a need to overlook tradition and custom for her cousin.
Thank you very much for that information. The New York Times obituary is an interesting read. (He was held by the Nazis for two days due to his involvement with the Danish resistance!) Considering the Prime Minister also told about Hereditary Prince Knud's attempt to stop the law from being signed, he clearly did not condone the prince's actions. It's very regrettable that Knud's children, and their relations with the core royal family, suffered for such a long period from his resentment and his conflicts with his brother.
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  #119  
Old 06-27-2018, 06:32 AM
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Never a Princess wil have a decoration for 40 years service. Well done !
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  #120  
Old 06-28-2018, 03:01 PM
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Summary of articles in Billed Bladet #26, 2018.

I will not go into details about the funeral, only add a few details.

Instead I will focus more on what BB, and Count Ingolf has to say about Princess Elisabeth's life.

Count Ingolf who is now the last surviving of three siblings, gave in and sobbed when the hearse drove away.
After the ceremony at the church the family and others present at the ceremony were served coffee at a restaurant not far away, as is customary in DK. Among those going to the "gravøl = grave-beer" as it is also called, were Princess Benedikte and Queen Anne-Marie.
The restaurant was a favorite of Princess Elisabeth.
In the meantime the flowers and wreaths were placed on the grave of her brother Count Christian and his wife Countess Anne Dorte, who lie at Lyngby Cemetery.

A number of representatives for Elisabeth's protections and associates were represented as well. Like the Japanese ambassador. The Danish-Brazilian Society.
Prince Wilhelm of Schaumburg-Lippe was there as well, and his wife, Princes Ilona.

Prince Ingolf said later on (perhaps on the phone?):
"Elisabeth's death was not a surprise, because she has been struggling for a long time. Since when she fell ill in May we could tell what way it would go, but she was stubborn and it was like she wouldn't let go of life. Finally Elisabeth fortunately found peace and that was good. But it is still hard nevertheless. It's hard because now I'm the last one left.
We have very, very close. And Elisabeth... yes, she was alright." (Jutlandic understatement.)

Q from Trine Larsen: Alright? What does the Count mean by that?
Ingolf: "Well, yes, I mean she was a fantastic older sister. She was always sweet and cozy and very helpful and as a child she was also a role model. Elisabeth often took the blame, even though it was us boys who did the mischief.
There has never been any hostility and sibling-rivalry between us. Fortunately. We have on the contrary always supported each other in everything and we did that right to the end.
That's a great joy."

He goes on to say that Elisabeth certainly had her opinions and that she liked to get her way.
Count Ingolf lives in Jutland, so he didn't see his sister very often, but the daughters of his brother, live in and around Copenhagen and they saw Elisabeth on a daily basis.

Princess Elisabeth was born in 1935, and as BB puts it, "her birth was, if not a disappointment, then not a cause for big jubilation either."
She was the firstborn in a dynasty where until 1953, only boys could be heirs.
Her very strict father, Prince Knud referred to her as: "her, the gal" (*)
And until she became an adult she feared her father very much.
So it was not that happy a childhood, but it helped a little when Ingolf was born in 1940 and Prince Christian in 1942.
Even she was the one who often got the blame, she loved her brothers.
She went to Lyngby Private School near Sorgenfri Manor, where she lived with her parents. And she hated going to school. Partly because she was bullied and partly because book-learning was not something she was good at.
Being a girl she wasn't destined to go to high school, so after finishing middle-school (Doesn't exist today, back then it was a preparation for high school.) in 1952 she went to the boarding school, Brillantmont in Lausanne in Switzerland. To learn cooking and languages.
She then went for a year at a housekeeping school and took a course at a fashion and design school as well. - All aimed to prepare her to become a good housewife.

Actually Elisabeth dreamed about becoming an ocean-biologist but during a course a friend told her about a job in the archive of the Foreign Ministry. She applied and got the job and worked for the ministry in 45 years.
For seven years she was stationed at the Danish embassy in Washington and for four years at the Danish UN mission in Geneva.

At some point she met the love of her life, Claus Hermansen and the two of them lived together for more 20 years until his death in 1997. The two of them agreed never to have children and they also agreed on never marrying.
"I would have become Mrs. Hermansen and that we both found a bit silly considering that were not to have children. That was a decision we were in total agreement about."

While never having children of her own she nevertheless became a much loved aunt for her brother's three daughters and their children as well, being called "tante Beth = aunt Beth" (**)

Despite living very different lives, Elisabeth maintained a good relationship with QMII and her sisters, even though they certainly did not see each other on a daily basis. Nor phoned on a daily basis either. But she was always invited to major events.
"We have never been particular close in our family, but apart from that it's probably mostly Daisy and Princess Benedikte I'm closest to. I'm also very fond of Anne-Marie, but she is so much younger."

Elisabeth was fond of handiwork and for many years she made her own gala-dresses.

In the last couple of years of her life she moved back to Sorgenfri Manor, where QMII put the Ladies Building at Elisabeth's disposal.
She fell ill in May and despite struggling she wasn't strong enough and she spend the last weeks of her life in a nursing home and here she died in her sleep, surrounded by her nearest and dearest.

(*) Difficult to translate directly. Tøs = a pretty derogatory word for a girl and depending on the context it can also mean something that is almost as derogatory as the the word "slut".

(**)
She was actually faster Beth.
Faster = father's sister.
Moster = mother's sister.
Tante = aunt in general or aunt who has married into the family.

The scans for this week here:
https://app.box.com/s/ejnumbrzmtrrtelfwn7m6lt0iv0svhys
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