Costs, Income, Fortune and Expenditures of the Danish Royal Family

[tommy100]

It seems sensible, nobody benefits from Alex struggling for cash if work dries up. What is the amount of the appanage she would get back if she had to claim it? Is it a reduced amount to what it was, there was talk of it being the same as that of a minister or something but I've lost track.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by tommy100

It seems sensible, nobody benefits from Alex struggling for cash if work dries up. What is the amount of the appanage she would get back if she had to claim it? Is it a reduced amount to what it was, there was talk of it being the same as that of a minister or something but I've lost track.

She can claim up to the whole of her current apanage, which is 2.6 million DKK a year or some 400.000 $.
As her apanage is index regulated in the same way as salaries for civil servants are, that amount will increase.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

As this is about apanage, this must belong here.

This month was the last month Alexandra got her apanage.

But there is a clause. Alexandra can at any time get all or part of her apanage back, if she wish to. Also if she has another income.
Also, she has given up her apanage for "so long as she is on the job-market."
That means that when she retires at some point she is entitled to "retirement-apanage" so to speak. - It's an agreement akin to the one former ministers and MPs have.

Experts believe the clause about Alexandra again getting an apanage, should she wish to, is just in case she can't support herself. That is however unlikely, given that her personal economic situation by all accounts seem very sound.

However, should Alexandra request that she be granted an apanage again, she must expect a public sh*tstorm.

All this has been confirmed by the PM's office, Statsministeriet.

https://ekstrabladet.dk/flash/kongel...ttelem/8206872

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Interesting.

That should be indicative in regards to other former and present DRF members. Joachim and our Marie (should Joachim die before her) in particular.
But perhaps also M&F's younger children at some point in the future.

I cannot imagine children of the monarch (Frederik) will be left without an income. Nor will they ever be on welfare. I'm convinced some sort of arrangement will be made, in case they for whatever reason are unable to support themselves.
Not doing so would be risky - it could lead to the royal getting an income by "unfortunate means."
It would also reflect badly on the DRF and the government to have a poor member of the DRF sitting on a bench somewhere or just as bad, leeching on someone rich.

I assume Marie would remain a member of the Danish royal family as a widow?! Imho, a divorcee (no longer member of the royal family) should be treated differently than a widow/widower (remains a member of the royal family); and the DRF treated Alexandra extremely generously (she got a title and lots of money).

Why would apanage be needed (as back-up option) for all members of the larger royal family? Don't they have sufficient private wealth to give them a comfortable life if they go about their lives somewhat prudently?!

[tommy100]

I think long term (hasn't it been said only Christian will receive an apanage in the future) they will have to rethink how the younger children are funded. Does the Danish monarch get a personal allowance out of their income, if so I guess there is nothing to stop a King Frederik and Queen Mary giving their children an allowance out of their own private part of the income. If the children are never going to have an office to ru etc they only need a personal income which can be taken care of by their parents income + any income from a job etc.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by tommy100

I think long term (hasn't it been said only Christian will receive an apanage in the future) they will have to rethink how the younger children are funded. Does the Danish monarch get a personal allowance out of their income, if so I guess there is nothing to stop a King Frederik and Queen Mary giving their children an allowance out of their own private part of the income. If the children are never going to have an office to ru etc they only need a personal income which can be taken care of by their parents income + any income from a job etc.

In the Netherlands the sisters of Princess/Queen Beatrix, the brothers of Prince/King Willem-Alexander, the sisters of Princess/Queen Catharina-Amalia have never received (and will never receive) any income from the State. So far all members of the wide royal family (including the De Bourbon de Parmes, the Van Vlenhovens and the Guillermos) have provided in their own income. The three sisters of Princess (Queen) Beatrix had their own fortune to live on. The rest all have had paid jobs or have own businesses. Not one excluded. This is the proof that royals can very well live without being dependend on allowances.

I fail to see why the siblings of Christian, Ingrid Alexandra or Estelle can not follow that example. After all any Dane, Norwegian or Swede has to work for their living as well.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Muhler

This month was the last month Alexandra got her apanage.

But there is a clause. Alexandra can at any time get all or part of her apanage back, if she wish to. Also if she has another income.
Also, she has given up her apanage for "so long as she is on the job-market."
That means that when she retires at some point she is entitled to "retirement-apanage" so to speak. - It's an agreement akin to the one former ministers and MPs have.

.

Back to Alexandra...

She has been an ex-wife for what? 16 years? Ok, there were young kids at the time and getting the apanage until the youngest is 18 (now) is one thing but having the option to claim it back some time after giving it up "voluntarily" I find odd...

If she decides to not be "on the job-market", she can again claim it for the rest of her life...?

As someone said, being a widow who remains a member of the DRF would be one thing but an ex-wife...

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

[...]
That should be indicative in regards to other former and present DRF members. Joachim and our Marie (should Joachim die before her) in particular.
But perhaps also M&F's younger children at some point in the future.

Originally Posted by Somebody

I assume Marie would remain a member of the Danish royal family as a widow?! Imho, a divorcee (no longer member of the royal family) should be treated differently than a widow/widower (remains a member of the royal family); and the DRF treated Alexandra extremely generously (she got a title and lots of money).

I don't think Muhler was suggesting that a widowed Marie and/or Frederik's younger children might be forced to leave the royal house (although based on previous convention Frederik's and Joachim's daughters would be forced to leave if they married commoners), but that they might not be granted the same level of state income that previous widows/younger children were granted.

[muriel]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

In the Netherlands the sisters of Princess/Queen Beatrix, the brothers of Prince/King Willem-Alexander, the sisters of Princess/Queen Catharina-Amalia have never received (and will never receive) any income from the State. So far all members of the wide royal family (including the De Bourbon de Parmes, the Van Vlenhovens and the Guillermos) have provided in their own income. The three sisters of Princess (Queen) Beatrix had their own fortune to live on. The rest all have had paid jobs or have own businesses. Not one excluded. This is the proof that royals can very well live without being dependend on allowances.

I fail to see why the siblings of Christian, Ingrid Alexandra or Estelle can not follow that example. After all any Dane, Norwegian or Swede has to work for their living as well.

Its a tricky one. The Dutch royal family are very wealthy, and have been able to provide independent funding for the lifestyles of younger children of each generation.

The same is not true for the Danish, so the matter has to be dealt with some thought. As most monarchies move to a smaller working royal family, state financing will increasingly be limited to the direct heirs, and perhaps one "supporting act". I suspect Fred & Mary's children, barring Christian (and possibly Isabel?), will need to develop careers for themselves independent of the DRF.

It was less of an issue for the last two generations, as QM II only had 2 sons, one of whom was the heir, and the other played the role of supporting role. One generation up from there, QM II had two sisters, who married well, and did not necessarly need to be provided for financially.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

In the Netherlands the sisters of Princess/Queen Beatrix, the brothers of Prince/King Willem-Alexander, the sisters of Princess/Queen Catharina-Amalia have never received (and will never receive) any income from the State. So far all members of the wide royal family (including the De Bourbon de Parmes, the Van Vlenhovens and the Guillermos) have provided in their own income. The three sisters of Princess (Queen) Beatrix had their own fortune to live on. The rest all have had paid jobs or have own businesses. Not one excluded. This is the proof that royals can very well live without being dependend on allowances.

I fail to see why the siblings of Christian, Ingrid Alexandra or Estelle can not follow that example. After all any Dane, Norwegian or Swede has to work for their living as well.

In the countries you name criticisms have already been voiced over certain business ventures of members or former members of the families. That is the negative side of allowing or requiring members of royal families to work for their living.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by muriel

Its a tricky one. The Dutch royal family are very wealthy, and have been able to provide independent funding for the lifestyles of younger children of each generation.

The same is not true for the Danish, so the matter has to be dealt with some thought. As most monarchies move to a smaller working royal family, state financing will increasingly be limited to the direct heirs, and perhaps one "supporting act". I suspect Fred & Mary's children, barring Christian (and possibly Isabel?), will need to develop careers for themselves independent of the DRF.

It was less of an issue for the last two generations, as QM II only had 2 sons, one of whom was the heir, and the other played the role of supporting role. One generation up from there, QM II had two sisters, who married well, and did not necessarly need to be provided for financially.

Prince Joachim’s children have access to the best schools if they are willing to take that opportunity. They can have a career and earn.a living like everybody else.

CP Frederik’s younger children have the same opportunities too and could be financially independent if they so wished. As children of the monarch, I suspect however that they will be working royals and will be indirectly funded by the King’s apanage as Prince Joachim is today.

[Muhler]

IMO this clause is a "just in case" option.

I can't imagine Alexandra investing her fortune so badly that she can't make ends meet, but just in case there is another 1929, or she is subjected to serious fraud, marry an unfortunate husband who squander all her money or for whatever reason is unable to dispose over her fortune, civil war or whatever then she can request an apanage.
Of course it's Alexandra who must request the apanage, the state cannot and will not go in and assess whether she is able to support herself.

Another reason for this clause must also be to prevent Alexandra from "selling her story" simply to get money. Or if she was younger, de facto sell herself to a rich husband.

I believe it is very likely that Joachim in three years time will do an Elisabeth and live off his salary (and fortune) while at the same time cease being an active member of the DRF. (The apanage seems to granted to working members of the DRF only.) Joachim's apanage also cover his wife. There is no percentage set aside for our Marie, as there is for Mary and PH.
So should Joachim die first and even die within a relatively short time, then we have a Danish citizen and full member of the DRF without an income so to speak. With two children under the age of eighteen.
I think in that case there would be a good chance of her moving back to DK and getting an apanage, while doing some work on behalf of the DRF.
It would IMO be a very odd royal family who would just abandon her. Even if she is fully able to live a comfortable life from their fortune.
So I think Marie would at the very least be offered an apanage.

Also, there has to be some sort of closure in regards to Joachim and his apanage. Because the public have problems with Joachim having a career in a foreign country while getting an apanage that is admittedly a good deal higher than the salary he would otherwise get. All that while having very little time to work for the DRF.
So yes, I think he will do an Elisabeth and perhaps in some years return to working full time again for the DRF. (That will IMO no doubt be seen in a very negative light by the public, and not least large segments of the press.)
Or Joachim will return, if something serious happens to Mary or Frederik, say cancer. In that case I think it will be only natural for Joachim to get an apanage again.

It may also be how they will handle Isabella some time in the future, because there is no doubt in my mind that she will be at least a part time working member of the DRF, a new Benedikte.
But it may be necessary for her to become a full time working member of the DRF, at least for a period.

I think the more options there are, the better.

Of course I imagine the clause that is presented to Alexandra comes with conditions, even unmentioned conditions. I can hardly see Alexandra being granted an apanage if she has lost her fortune investing in an Austrian brothel (they are legal there) or in a factory producing landmines.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Muhler

IMO this clause is a "just in case" option.

I can't imagine Alexandra investing her fortune so badly that she can't make ends meet, but just in case there is another 1929, or she is subjected to serious fraud, marry an unfortunate husband who squander all her money or for whatever reason is unable to dispose over her fortune, civil war or whatever then she can request an apanage.
Of course it's Alexandra who must request the apanage, the state cannot and will not go in and assess whether she is able to support herself.

Another reason for this clause must also be to prevent Alexandra from "selling her story" simply to get money. Or if she was younger, de facto sell herself to a rich husband.

I believe it is very likely that Joachim in three years time will do an Elisabeth and live off his salary (and fortune) while at the same time cease being an active member of the DRF. (The apanage seems to granted to working members of the DRF only.) Joachim's apanage also cover his wife. There is no percentage set aside for our Marie, as there is for Mary and PH.
So should Joachim die first and even die within a relatively short time, then we have a Danish citizen and full member of the DRF without an income so to speak. With two children under the age of eighteen.
I think in that case there would be a good chance of her moving back to DK and getting an apanage, while doing some work on behalf of the DRF.
It would IMO be a very odd royal family who would just abandon her. Even if she is fully able to live a comfortable life from their fortune.
So I think Marie would at the very least be offered an apanage.

Also, there has to be some sort of closure in regards to Joachim and his apanage. Because the public have problems with Joachim having a career in a foreign country while getting an apanage that is admittedly a good deal higher than the salary he would otherwise get. All that while having very little time to work for the DRF.
So yes, I think he will do an Elisabeth and perhaps in some years return to working full time again for the DRF. (That will IMO no doubt be seen in a very negative light by the public, and not least large segments of the press.)
Or Joachim will return, if something serious happens to Mary or Frederik, say cancer. In that case I think it will be only natural for Joachim to get an apanage again.

It may also be how they will handle Isabella some time in the future, because there is no doubt in my mind that she will be at least a part time working member of the DRF, a new Benedikte.
But it may be necessary for her to become a full time working member of the DRF, at least for a period.

I think the more options there are, the better.

Of course I imagine the clause that is presented to Alexandra comes with conditions, even unmentioned conditions. I can hardly see Alexandra being granted an apanage if she has lost her fortune investing in an Austrian brothel (they are legal there) or in a factory producing landmines.

You only mentioned Isabella, but is there any reason for Vincent and Josephine not to be expected to be working royals too? Other than princesses who married into foreign royal families, isn’t the norm in Denmark that children of the monarch take up royal work ?

[tommy100]

I thought it had already been announced that only Christian would get an allowance? Obviously this doesn't preclude his siblings from working for the RF as well but I thought the Court had announced this already.
This report certainly seems to suggest that: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7057586.html

Speaking to the state broadcaster DR, Royal House spokeswoman Lene Balleby said only Crown Prince Frederik’s son, Prince Christian, will receive a salary when he comes of age.

“It is not the expectation, nor has it ever been, that anyone other than Prince Christian should have the salary when the time comes,” she said, according to a translation by the Danish edition of The Local.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

You only mentioned Isabella, but is there any reason for Vincent and Josephine not to be expected to be working royals too? Other than princesses who married into foreign royal families, isn’t the norm in Denmark that children of the monarch take up royal work ?

Given how much the world has changed, I'm not sure that we can fall back on the 'norm' - as previously they were expected the princesses were expected to marry into royal families.

That last reign in which the Danish royal family had more than one spare within the family was with Frederick VIII who had 8 children. The eldest two became kings of Denmark and Norway respectively, two daughter married foreign princes, so that leaves us with;
- prince Harald (dedicated his life to the military)
- prince Gustav (unmarried; wikipedia provides little information on his life),
- princess Thyra (unmarried; again little information)
- princess Dagmar (married to a commoner - I doubt she continued royal service but who knows)

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

You only mentioned Isabella, but is there any reason for Vincent and Josephine not to be expected to be working royals too? Other than princesses who married into foreign royal families, isn’t the norm in Denmark that children of the monarch take up royal work ?

Well, it has been stated that as a rule only Christian will get an apanage.
(And as such the only working royal among M&F's children.)
It is not expected that all M&F's children will be fully working royals.

However, I firmly believe there will also be at least a part time spare, Isabella, who as such will also get a good deal of training in being a working royal and acting head of state.
While Vincent and Josephine will focus more on getting an education of their own choosing enabling them to make a living on their own.

Isabella of course because she is next in line.

But - should Isabella not wish to be a working royal, or settle in Australia (not unlikely) then the next one will take her place as the spare. I.e. Vincent.
Because Isabella is only a tragic accident away from being the next crown princess.
And it simply makes more sense for me to have a spare in place, who has training and routine in working as a royal, rather than dragging Vincent or Josephine out of the university taking on the role as crown prince/ss.

Also, while Vincent and Josephine can pursue a career pretty much freely, Isabella cannot.
Isabella can't own a strip-club or do like Märtha-Louise and still be the spare. Forget it, will never be accepted.
There will severe limitations on her choice of career.

There will also be the possibility that Christian wont have children, in that case the children of the spare moves up.
And that means their parents will become fully active royals and get an apanage.

Joachim is as I see it on the verge of opting/retiring out of the DRF - something he may have been looking forward to perhaps.
And only because M&F sit safely in the saddle and have plenty of children who can take over. With the oldest being close to turning eighteen.
There has to be a spare, be that Isabella, Vincent or Josephine, until Christian is in the same situation as M&F is in now.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Given how much the world has changed, I'm not sure that we can fall back on the 'norm' - as previously they were expected the princesses were expected to marry into royal families.
[...]
- princess Dagmar (married to a commoner - I doubt she continued royal service but who knows)

Dagmar had to leave the Royal House due to her marriage to an untitled nobleman (not a commoner) and lost her titles, becoming Mrs. Dagmar Castenskiold (see the Danish court calendar from the time).

[Susan D]

If Crown Princess Mary gets about $8,000, what is she to do with so little money? Is the 8 Gs for hairdressing and gifts to others?

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Susan D

If Crown Princess Mary gets about $8,000, what is she to do with so little money? Is the 8 Gs for hairdressing and gifts to others?

8.000?

She gets 10 % of Frederik's apanage. That's much more - not as much as what Alexandra got though.

The money are to pay her personal staff, secretary, stylist etc. As well as personal expenses for representation, clothes, make up and so on.
I don't think gifts are covered by Mary's apanage, unless it's got something directly to with her staff, protections and so on, and only of they are fairly small.

It was PH who got this through, so that the consort shouldn't go hat in hand and ask for money, which he found demeaning and he had a point there IMO.

J&M on the other hand has opted not to have a part of Joachim's apanage allocated specifically for our Marie. But their court was much smaller and is now pretty much non existing.

[tommy100]

Doesn't Mary get about $300,000? I guess while many of their office costs will be shared or taken care of my the remaining Mary will use it to pay for her not inexpensive wardrobe, hairdressers, a maid, secretary and any costs her own activities incur. Its just like Maxima who got an allowance of her own for official costs as the wife of the heir and now as Queen. Better IMO to give them their own budget.