Arveprins Knud & Arveprinsesse Caroline Mathilde

[norwegianne]

Name: Knud Christian Frederik Michael

Birth: 1900

Child of: King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine

Marriage: In 1933 married Caroline Mathilde of Denmark, at Fredensborg.

Children: Princess Elisabeth of Denmark, Count Christian of Denmark and Count Ingolf of Denmark

Death: 1976


Notes:
Only child with right to the throne is, ironically, his daughter, who didn't have any rights while her father was second in line.

Heir to the throne from 1947 to 1953

Scanned from: "Prins Knud af Danmark - Erindringer"

 

[norwegianne]

Arveprinsesse Caroline Mathilde

Name: Caroline-Mathilde of Denmark

Birth: 1912

Child of: Prince Harald and Princess Helena of Denmark

Marriage: 1933 at Fredensborg to Knud of Denmark

Children: Princess Elisabeth, Count Christian of Rosenborg and Count Ingolf of Rosenborg

Death: 1995

Picture from "Arveprinsesse Caroline Mathildes fotoalbum"

Picture from "Prins Knud - Erindringer"

 

[norwegianne]

Their wedding.

Another picture of them together.

Both scanned from Prince Knud's biography: "Prins Knud af Danmark - Erindringer"

 

[elenaris]

Are they cousins?

My understanding is that thay were first-degree cousins, can you confirm it?
Was it still a usual doing at this time?
Thank you!

 

[Tricota]

My understanding is that thay were first-degree cousins, can you confirm it?
Was it still a usual doing at this time?
Thank you!

In the Royal Familyin 1933? I would say it is not unlikely. But I dont know.

Anyone know if there are some new plans for their estate Sogenfri? I know it was under renovation a few years ago but from what I understod that was only the outside?

 

[norwegianne]

My understanding is that thay were first-degree cousins, can you confirm it?
Was it still a usual doing at this time?
Thank you!

First cousins, yes. Knud's father, Christian X and Caroline-Mathilde's father, Harald, were brothers.

I don't know if it was usual doing, but King Olav of Norway (whose father, Haakon, was also a brother to Christian X and Harald) married his cousin (whose mother was the sister to Christian X, Harald and Haakon.) So, it happened.

 

[Empress]

Why is their daughter a princess whilst the sons are only counts?

 

[Sophus]

Why is their daughter a princess whilst the sons are only counts?

Their sons were also born princes of Denmark but they were created counts of Rosenborg due to marriages of commoners. Princess Elisabeth never married despite the fact that she lived with a man for many many years before he died. In Denmark it is said that she never married because she would then loose her title - the same situation princess Alexandra faces now... Because they were born princes count Christian and count Ingolf are knights of the Elephant and count Ingolf is still on the civil list... Princess Elisabeth worked for many years for the U.N. as she is fluent in many languages...

 

[elenaris]

First cousins, yes. Knud's father, Christian X and Caroline-Mathilde's father, Harald, were brothers.

I don't know if it was usual doing, but King Olav of Norway (whose father, Haakon, was also a brother to Christian X and Harald) married his cousin (whose mother was the sister to Christian X, Harald and Haakon.) So, it happened.

Many thanks for you answer, Norwegianne.

 

[sara1981]

thanks for infomation that story about arveprins knud &Arveprinsesses caroline Mathilde

its old story about couple?

 

[norwegianne]

Their sons were also born princes of Denmark but they were created counts of Rosenborg due to marriages of commoners. Princess Elisabeth never married despite the fact that she lived with a man for many many years before he died. In Denmark it is said that she never married because she would then loose her title - the same situation princess Alexandra faces now... Because they were born princes count Christian and count Ingolf are knights of the Elephant and count Ingolf is still on the civil list... Princess Elisabeth worked for many years for the U.N. as she is fluent in many languages...

It was pointed out to me sometime that without the change in the constitution in 1953, you would currently have Ingolf on the throne - who is childless, and after him his brother, Christian, who has three girls (who wouldn't have had any right to the throne.) After them, the nearest male would be King Harald of Norway.

Of course, who Ingolf and Christian might've married may not have been the same if they'd been more directly in line at the time of marriage.

And since the constitution was changed in '53, and Margrethe's proven to be an excellent monarch, it's just contrafactual thinking...

I was, however, oddly reminded by this situation in Denmark - the king having only girls, when I read a few news-articles on the proposed changes in the Japanese succession rules a few months back. Knud had sons, and Frederik didn't. The Danish monarchy goes way back, like the Japanese, and still the Danes changed their constitutions, even as there were viable male heirs.

 

[MargreteI]

It was pointed out to me sometime that without the change in the constitution in 1953, you would currently have Ingolf on the throne - who is childless, and after him his brother, Christian, who has three girls (who wouldn't have had any right to the throne.) After them, the nearest male would be King Harald of Norway.

Of course, who Ingolf and Christian might've married may not have been the same if they'd been more directly in line at the time of marriage.

And since the constitution was changed in '53, and Margrethe's proven to be an excellent monarch, it's just contrafactual thinking...

I was, however, oddly reminded by this situation in Denmark - the king having only girls, when I read a few news-articles on the proposed changes in the Japanese succession rules a few months back. Knud had sons, and Frederik didn't. The Danish monarchy goes way back, like the Japanese, and still the Danes changed their constitutions, even as there were viable male heirs.

Princes Margrethe was more popular then Prins Knud and the change of the succesion was used to carry other constitutional changes through.

The constitution was not changed solely for that purpose, but the succession issue was used to drag people to the polls. It is extremely difficult to change the danish constitution.

 

[Jose]

Photo on last year Prince Knud and Princess Mathilde on 1970 year? Photo on last year Princess Mathilde 1990? Photo on they funeral 1976 and 1995?

 

[magnik]

Some genealogy http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=263193 and
http://www.geocities.com/henrivanoene/gendenmark5.html (not always visible) and http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Danish_Royal_Family.htm

Some photos http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/royal1a.htm

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

It was pointed out to me sometime that without the change in the constitution in 1953, you would currently have Ingolf on the throne - who is childless, and after him his brother, Christian, who has three girls (who wouldn't have had any right to the throne.) After them, the nearest male would be King Harald of Norway.
It is not tru..the nearest male heir woud be CrownPrince Frederik because he is in direct line of King Christian10. and his wife Queen Alexandrine.
King Harald of Norway is way way out in the line of claim about the Crown her in Denmark that is the same thing for his children.

 

[magnik]

Here you are
http://members.fortunecity.com/successionlines/denmark.html
From 20 Apr 1947-20 Nov 1947
01. HRH Knud Hereditary Prince of Denmark
02. HH Ingold Prince of Denmark
03. HH Christian Prince of Denmark
04. HRH Harald Prince of Denmark
05. HH Gorm Prince of Denmark
06. HH Oluf Prince of Denmark
07. HH Aage Prince of Denmark
08. HH Axel Prince of Denmark
09. HH Georg Prince of Denmark
10. HH Flemming Prince of Denmark
11. HM Paul King of the Hellenes, Prince of Denmark
12. HRH Constantine Crown Prince of Greece, Prince of Denmark
13. HRH George Prince of Greece and Denmark
14. HRH Peter Prince of Greece and Denmark
15. HRH Philip Prince of Greece and Denmark
16. HRH Michael Prince of Greece and Denmark

and from 24 May 1949-27 Mar 1953
01. HRH Knud Hereditary Prince of Denmark
02. HH Ingold Prince of Denmark
03. HH Christian Prince of Denmark
04. HH Gorm Prince of Denmark
05. HH Aage Prince of Denmark
06. HH Axel Prince of Denmark
07. HH Georg Prince of Denmark
08. HM Paul King of the Hellenes, Prince of Denmark
09. HRH Constantine Crown Prince of Greece, Prince of Denmark
10. HRH George Prince of Greece and Denmark
11. HRH Peter Prince of Greece and Denmark
(12. HRH Philip Prince of Greece and Denmark, Duke of Edinburgh
13. HRH Charles Prince of Greece and Denmark, Prince of Edinburgh (since 6 Feb 1952: Prince of Greece and Denmark, Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay )
14/15 HRH Michael Prince of Greece and Denmark

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

It says that King Harald and his children woud never be candidate for the crown of Denmark because the heir has to be in direct line from King Christian 10. and his wife Queen Alexandrine. The Law is from 1953 and in that time King Frederik9.,Queen Alexandrine,Prince Knud was alive and Count Ingolf and Christian was still princes of Denmark until their marriede their wifes and became Counts of Rosenborg.


Arverækkefølgen i kongehuset er bestemt i tronfølgeloven (lov nr. 170 af 27. marts 1953)
Tronen nedarves indenfor kong Christian X og dronning Alexandrines efterslægt. Ved en konges død overgår tronen til hans søn eller datter, således at søn går forud for datter, og hvis der er flere børn af samme køn, går den ældste forud for den yngre. Hvis kongen ikke har arveberettigede børn ved sin død, overgår tronen til hans søster eller broder med fortrin for broder. Således ser arverækkefølgen ud i dag:

1. Kronprins Frederik
2. Prins Joachim
3. Prins Nicolai
4. Prins Felix
5. Prinsesse Benedikte
6. Prinsesse Elisabeth

Når kronprins Frederik får børn, vil de automatisk træde ind før prins Joachim og hans børn. Kronprinsens kommende børn vil således komme øverst i tronfølger-rækkefølgen. Derudover kan det læses i tronfølgerloven, som findes nederst i dette dokument, at kronprinsens eventuelle sønner vil have forret til tronen i forhold til hans eventuelle døtre. Dvs. at hvis kronprinsen først får en datter, som efterfølgende får en lillebror, vil det være lillebroderen der bliver kronprins og ikke den ældste datter.

Udover prinsesse Benedikte har Dronning Margrethe en anden søster, prinsesse Anne-Marie. Hun gled dog ud af arvefølgen, da hun giftede sig med eks-kong Konstantin.

Tronfølgerloven:
Vi Frederik den Niende, af Guds Nåde Konge til Danmark, de Venders og Goters, Hertug til Slesvig, Holsten, Stormarn, Ditmarsken, Lauenborg og Oldenborg, Gør vitterligt: Rigsdagen har vedtaget og Vi ved Vort samtykke stadfæstet følgende lov:

§ 1. Tronen nedarves indenfor kong Christian X og dronning Alexandrines efterslægt.

§ 2. Ved en konges død overgår tronen til hans søn eller datter, således at søn går forud for datter, og i tilfælde af, at der er flere børn af samme køn, den ældre går forud for den yngre.

Er et af kongens børn afgået ved døden, træder vedkommendes afkom i dets sted efter linealfølgen og de i stk. 1 fastsatte regler.

§ 3. Dør en konge uden at efterlade sig til tronen arveberettiget afkom, overgår tronen til hans broder eller søster med fortrin for broder. Har kongen flere søskende af samme køn, eller er nogen af hans søskende afgået ved døden, finder reglerne i § 2 tilsvarende anvendelse.

§ 4. Er der ingen arveberettigede i henhold til bestemmelserne i §§ 2 og 3, overgår tronen til den derefter nærmeste sidelinie indenfor kong Christian X og dronning Alexandrines efterslægt efter linealfølgen og med tilsvarende fortrin for mænd fremfor kvinder og for ældre fremfor yngre som fastsat i §§ 2 og 3.

§ 5. Kun børn født i lovligt ægteskab har arveret til tronen.

Til kongens indgåelse af ægteskab udfordres rigsdagens samtykke.

Indgår en til tronen arveberettiget person ægteskab uden kongens i statsrådet givne samtykke, mister den pågældende arveretten til tronen for sig og de i ægteskabet fødte børn og disses afkom.

§ 6. Bestemmelserne i §§ 2-5 finder tilsvarende anvendelse i tilfælde af, at en konge frasiger sig tronen.

§ 7. Denne lov træder i kraft samtidig med Danmarks Riges Grundlov af 5. juni 1953.

Givet på Amalienborg, den 27. marts 1953.
Under Vor Kongelige Hånd og Segl.
Frederik R.

 

[Princess Robijn]

Here you are
http://members.fortunecity.com/successionlines/denmark.html
From 20 Apr 1947-20 Nov 1947
01. HRH Knud Hereditary Prince of Denmark
02. HH Ingold Prince of Denmark
03. HH Christian Prince of Denmark
04. HRH Harald Prince of Denmark
05. HH Gorm Prince of Denmark
06. HH Oluf Prince of Denmark
07. HH Aage Prince of Denmark
08. HH Axel Prince of Denmark
09. HH Georg Prince of Denmark
10. HH Flemming Prince of Denmark
11. HM Paul King of the Hellenes, Prince of Denmark
12. HRH Constantine Crown Prince of Greece, Prince of Denmark
13. HRH George Prince of Greece and Denmark
14. HRH Peter Prince of Greece and Denmark
15. HRH Philip Prince of Greece and Denmark
16. HRH Michael Prince of Greece and Denmark

and from 24 May 1949-27 Mar 1953
01. HRH Knud Hereditary Prince of Denmark
02. HH Ingold Prince of Denmark
03. HH Christian Prince of Denmark
04. HH Gorm Prince of Denmark
05. HH Aage Prince of Denmark
06. HH Axel Prince of Denmark
07. HH Georg Prince of Denmark
08. HM Paul King of the Hellenes, Prince of Denmark
09. HRH Constantine Crown Prince of Greece, Prince of Denmark
10. HRH George Prince of Greece and Denmark
11. HRH Peter Prince of Greece and Denmark
(12. HRH Philip Prince of Greece and Denmark, Duke of Edinburgh
13. HRH Charles Prince of Greece and Denmark, Prince of Edinburgh (since 6 Feb 1952: Prince of Greece and Denmark, Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay )
14/15 HRH Michael Prince of Greece and Denmark

I didn't kwow HRH The Prince Charles also holds the titles Prince of Greece and Denmark

 

[MargreteI]

I didn't kwow HRH The Prince Charles also holds the titles Prince of Greece and Denmark

I would think so is William and Harry. Not 100% sure, but allmost.

 

[auntie]

Thanks for the info! Gosh I can see who Elizabeth looks like, after seeing pictures of her mother.

 

[Princess Robijn]

I would think so is William and Harry. Not 100% sure, but allmost.

I don't think Phillip - Charles - William - Harry - Andew - Beatrice - Eugenie - Edward - Louise hold the title Prince(ss) of Greece and Denmark

From: http://www.royal.gov.uk/OutPut/Page413.asp


BACKGROUND

Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich, was born Prince of Greece and Denmark in Corfu on 10 June 1921.

He was born the only son of Prince Andrew of Greece. His paternal family is of Danish descent - Prince Andrew was the grandson of King Christian IX of Denmark.

His mother was Princess Alice of Battenberg, the eldest child of Prince Louis of Battenberg and sister of Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Prince Louis became a naturalised British subject in 1868, joined the Royal Navy and rose to become an Admiral of the Fleet and First Sea Lord in 1914.

During the First World War Prince Louis changed the family name to Mountbatten and was created Marquess of Milford Haven. Prince Philip adopted the family name of Mountbatten when he became a naturalised British subject and renounced his Royal title in 1947.
Prince Louis married one of Queen Victoria's granddaughters. Thus, The Queen and Prince Philip both have Queen Victoria as a great-great-grandmother. They are also related through his father's side. His paternal grandfather, King George I of Greece, was Queen Alexandra's brother

 

[Furienna]

Knud sure looks like his brother Frederik.

In one way, it's sad, that Knud and his sons were put aside in favor of Margarethe. In one way, I understand it, as Margarethe was the oldest child of a monarch. But it's also sad, that the family line from Christian IX will cease to inherit the thrown. (Margarethe belongs to his blood line, but her sons and grandsons don't.)

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Knud sure looks like his brother Frederik.

In one way, it's sad, that Knud and his sons were put aside in favor of Margarethe. In one way, I understand it, as Margarethe was the oldest child of a monarch. But it's also sad, that the family line from Christian IX will cease to inherit the thrown. (Margarethe belongs to his blood line, but her sons and grandsons don't.)

After we had this "bloodline" discussion in the Japan-forum, I checked the information about DNA and it says that you can trace the maternal grandfather's DNA down to the grandson. Thus, one could trace Christian IX.'s DNA-material down to Frederick. What is this if not a "blood line"?

For me it is discriminating to concentrate on male line inheritance only when it is proven that both mother and father add DNA-details inherited from their ancestors to their child's DNA.

 

[auntie]

Hypothetically thinking, if only men could reign, and Prince Knud's sons were knocked off the list for marrying morgonatically, who would be the king today?

 

[UserDane]

But it's also sad, that the family line from Christian IX will cease to inherit the thrown. (Margarethe belongs to his blood line, but her sons and grandsons don't.)

Since I have a great respect for warnings from the admins I won't even put down in writing what I really think of this statement

So now the bloodlines in Norway, Belgium and Holland and perhaps Spain will cease when the firstborn princess take over from their fathers....???
​

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

Hypothetically thinking, if only men could reign, and Prince Knud's sons were knocked off the list for marrying morgonatically, who would be the king today?

It woud either be CP Frederik of Denmark or Prince Gustav of Berleburg.

 

[auntie]

It woud either be CP Frederik of Denmark or Prince Gustav of Berleburg.

Let me rephrase, if the monarch would be only from the male line, who would reign today?

 

[Furienna]

Hypothetically thinking, if only men could reign, and Prince Knud's sons were knocked off the list for marrying morgonatically, who would be the king today?

I think the law would be changed, so that woman could reign, but males would still come before females, so that Margarethe would have become queen anyway. Or maybe prince Knud's sons would still have been allowed to inherit the thrown if they were "real" heirs and wasn't just "dead weight".

Since I have a great respect for warnings from the admins I won't even put down in writing what I really think of this statement

So now the bloodlines in Norway, Belgium and Holland and perhaps Spain will cease when the firstborn princess take over from their fathers....???


​

So just because you don't agree with me, and that you wish for a feminist shangri-la with only female monarchs, I'm wacko? Well, I'm glad you respect the admins, because you sure don't respect me. And yes, every time a ruling queen has to leave her thrown to her children, a blood line ceases to to sit on the thrown.

 

[Furienna]

Let me rephrase, if the monarch would be only from the male line, who would reign today?

As I said, I think the law would have been changed anyway. They would have had to.

 

[auntie]

I think the law would be changed, so that woman could reign, but males would still come before females, so that Margarethe would have become queen anyway. Or maybe prince Knud's sons would still have been allowed to inherit the thrown if they were "real" heirs and wasn't just "dead weight".



So just because you don't agree with me, and that you wish for a feminist shangri-la with only female monarchs, I'm wacko? Well, I'm glad you respect the admins, because you sure don't respect me. And yes, every time a ruling queen has to leave her thrown to her children, a blood line ceases to to sit on the thrown.

2 Questions:

1)What do you mean by dead weight?
2)I agree with you, if there's no choice, only girls, than let her reign, but if there is boys, I think the boys should reign, not because they are better, but because it causes more personal conflicts for a woman to rule.