Alexandre & Nicole Coste Current Events Part 3 : May 2006 - July 2008

[magicalt2]

This is very interesting, Louis14. I have wondered how a conflicts of law issue would play out between France and Monaco, because that is precisely the issue that would come into play if Alex (at 18) challenged the law. Could you explain how French law trumps Monaco if they conflict? I would be interested to understand--I don't know much about comparative law.

The french law doesn't trump Monaco. Monaco is a seperate country they are govern by their own laws. They do not follow French laws as they are not citizens of France.

 

[Qsophy]

Monaco is a seperate country they are govern by their own laws.

Obviously. I was referencing Louis14's post (see excerpt below), and asking for clarification:

The concepts of "illegitimate child" and "natural child" were removed from the French law. Under the French law, all the children have the same rights. In case of conflict of laws between France and Monaco concerning Alexandre's filiation, it's the French law which will be applied.

I was asking Louis14 how French law would be applied, instead of Monegasque law (thereby trumping it).

I guess we'll have to wait for Louis14 to answer...

 

[Toledo]

I dropped by to see if we had any news or pictures of the Coste family but we are still on the law thingy in here? Anyway, I'll see if I can google up some news for the thread...

I kind of like that expression, google up a link. The internet and technology has expanded the language with every new thing we have available online.

==========
and I just came back after a couple of minutes and found nothing new. The name Coste only brings up news for the Jazmin Grace thread. So, anyone in France has anything new from the local papers that could be shared with us?

 

[Warren]

I was asking Louis14 how French law would be applied, instead of Monegasque law (thereby trumping it).
I guess we'll have to wait for Louis14 to answer...

I think we should be careful in assuming members are "experts" in particular areas before checking out if there are larger agendas in play.

This question has been discussed at length elsewhere. The short answer is that the Monaco Constitution lays down succession law; children not born of a legal marriage are ineligible to inherit the throne. French law and its "concepts of illegitimate child and natural child" are irrelevant.

 

[Qsophy]

I think we should be careful in assuming members are "experts" in particular areas before checking out if there are larger agendas in play.

This question has been discussed at length elsewhere. The short answer is that the Monaco Constitution lays down succession law; children not born of a legal marriage are ineligible to inherit the throne. French law and its "concepts of illegitimate child and natural child" are irrelevant.

Never said I thought Louis14 was an expert. In fact, I am a lawyer myself. I wanted to know what his/her argument was regarding French/Monegasque conflicts of law. I think by now everyone on this forum knows what the Monegasque constitution says. But anyone familiar with the law knows that even when something seems ironclad, lawyers find all kinds of arguments to dispute it.

I wanted to understand what Louis14 meant, and am still waiting...

 

[Louis14]

Never said I thought Louis14 was an expert. In fact, I am a lawyer myself. I wanted to know what his/her argument was regarding French/Monegasque conflicts of law. I think by now everyone on this forum knows what the Monegasque constitution says. But anyone familiar with the law knows that even when something seems ironclad, lawyers find all kinds of arguments to dispute it.

I wanted to understand what Louis14 meant, and am still waiting...

Nobody disputes the sovereignty of Monaco. But this sovereignty was granted to Monaco by France within the 2002 Treaty, in certain conditions.

Here is the link to the original French version of the Franco-Monegasque Treaty of 2002. Free to everyone to translate it, especially the article 1, in order to form his own opinion.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnTexteDeJorf?numjo=MAEJ0530100D


When PA's lawyer, Mr Thierry Lacoste, who works and lives in France, presented last year Alexandre at the press of the whole world as being a "illegitimate child" while at the same time the concepts of "illegitimate child" and "natural child" had been removed from the French law, all the French lawyers understood that it acted above all of a political declaration intended to alleviate the tensions within the members of Grimaldi House.

Alexandre has many supports in France and in Monaco. We just try to inform people on the real state of the French law of filiation, by indicating the links of the French legislative texts.

Alexandre was born and lives in France with his mother. Under the French law, he is the legitimate heir of his father. According to article 311-15 of the French Civil Code whose link is below, in the case of conflict of laws relating to Alexandre's filiation, it's the French law which applies to him even if the other elements of filiation could have depended on a foreign law.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/VisuArticleCode?commun=&h0=CCIVILL0.rcv&h1=2&h3=121


In France, I say in France, Alexandre can enjoy all his rights as the oldest son of the Reigning Prince of Monaco. All the noble titles hold by PA, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French noble titles and can be legally hold in France by Alexandre.
The article 310 of the French Civil Code clearly specifies that: "All the children whose filiation is legally established have the same rights and the same duties in their relationship with their father and mother. They enter in the family of each one of them ".

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/VisuArticleCode?commun=&h0=CCIVILL0.rcv&h1=2&h3=91

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/VisuArticleCode?commun=&h0=CCIVILL0.rcv&h1=2&h3=156


Par la Grâce de Dieu, louis-le-14ème.

 

[Neat2912]

Magicalt2 Thanks. I feel a song coming on-The Way we were (at least that day. ) Just to be catty and nosey-I wonder what year that was ?!! Someday Alexandre will be proud of this-they represent his background. There are many pics around. What did you think of the fat-cheeked bambino above?

 

[Grace]

Just a precisation: sovereignty cannot be granted by any State or international entity. It's a prerogative a State either has or not, and Monaco, according to the majority of the doctrine, now has it. (I don't know if I have to qualify myself, but I recently graduated in international law).

 

[magicalt2]

Magicalt2 Thanks. I feel a song coming on-The Way we were (at least that day. ) Just to be catty and nosey-I wonder what year that was ?!! Someday Alexandre will be proud of this-they represent his background. There are many pics around. What did you think of the fat-cheeked bambino above?

I think he looks so sweet! Alexandre is a really cute litte boy in all his pictures.

 

[Grace]

I know that racism sadly still exists, but I fear any criticism of NC's behaviour is being labeled as racism and hence forbidden...
I would like to keep the right to voice my opinion, positive or negative, of NC, TR and particularly or Albert, because I didn't approve of many of the things they did lately, and while I agree that the colour of skin should not be a factor in these opinions, I think it shouldn't become a "shield" or a justification either. Just my opinion...

 

[magicalt2]

I know that racism sadly still exists, but I fear any criticism of NC's behaviour is being labeled as racism and hence forbidden...
I would like to keep the right to voice my opinion, positive or negative, of NC, TR and particularly or Albert, because I didn't approve of many of the things they did lately, and while I agree that the colour of skin should not be a factor in these opinions, I think it shouldn't become a "shield" or a justification either. Just my opinion...

Just to be clear are you saying NC is using racism as a shield? I don't think racism is a shield even though it does surround her. If you take the color of her skin out of the equation is she acting any different then any woman in that particular circumstance? I think not

 

[Neat2912]

To Grace--I really see no one using anything as a "shield" or a justification [for what?] of all of us hitting, guessing into two women's lives? The foregoing discussions speak for themselves and imo they went fine. People taking positions as a result of their life experiences and education as do we all. My experiences on these royal forums now a year,plus has shown me the (on this particular one I'll address) unbelieveable double-standard abusive remarks leveled at NC. (All anyone has to do is read back through NC & Alex Current Events #1 and on.They are still being done only cloaked in superficiality. And I care not to go back over this. For me its tiring, I just stated my commitment.

To Suonymona - You might want to go back to Royal Archives or somewhere and reread some of those old run an d rerun accounts of that PA/NC "denied","..so she could file for support" types of statements. NC has stated why she did the coming out thing and that wasn't what she said. Again and again, she already had the home being readied, and was working out the rest of the agreements. And as to when he would "recognize" the baby: On GMA he stated"....[child] was my private business and was meant to be kept that way for a long time..." Sorry to be so boring, but she has a right to be quoted correctly. All of those many May-June stories in interviews are on Royal Archives And really that whole thing likely is quite complicated than admitted and probably is pretty settled, at least the big part by now.

 

[magicalt2]

To Grace--I really see no one using anything as a "shield" or a justification [for what?] of all of us hitting, guessing into two women's lives? The foregoing discussions speak for themselves and imo they went fine. People taking positions as a result of their life experiences and education as do we all. My experiences on these royal forums now a year,plus has shown me the (on this particular one I'll address) unbelieveable double-standard abusive remarks leveled at NC. (All anyone has to do is read back through NC & Alex Current Events #1 and on.They are still being done only cloaked in superficiality. And I care not to go back over this. For me its tiring, I just stated my commitment.

To Suonymona - You might want to go back to Royal Archives or somewhere and reread some of those old run an d rerun accounts of that PA/NC "denied","..so she could file for support" types of statements. NC has stated why she did the coming out thing and that wasn't what she said. Again and again, she already had the home being readied, and was working out the rest of the agreements. And as to when he would "recognize" the baby: On GMA he stated"....[child] was my private business and was meant to be kept that way for a long time..." Sorry to be so boring, but she has a right to be quoted correctly. All of those many May-June stories in interviews are on Royal Archives And really that whole thing likely is quite complicated than admitted and probably is pretty settled, at least the big part by now.

You speak the truth

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

If Nicole Coste is playing the race card (and I don't know if she is because I haven't read any of the things being quoted here) then I think she needs to look at her life and realize how lucky she is. The same goes for Albert. Both of them are blessed people. They really don't have much to complain about. They are both in the 1% of the population who don't have to worry where the next meal comes from, so to speak. They are set for life. Nicole has got what she wanted. Her son will never have to worry about what consumes most people day-to-day: money. She has way, way, way more than most people can dream of. So I think that is all that needs to be said. If she is whining about people being unfair because of her race, she needs to get over herself.

 

[magicalt2]

If Nicole Coste is playing the race card (and I don't know if she is because I haven't read any of the things being quoted here) then I think she needs to look at her life and realize how lucky she is. The same goes for Albert. Both of them are blessed people. They really don't have much to complain about. They are both in the 1% of the population who don't have to worry where the next meal comes from, so to speak. They are set for life. Nicole has got what she wanted. Her son will never have to worry about what consumes most people day-to-day: money. She has way, way, way more than most people can dream of. So I think that is all that needs to be said. If she is whining about people being unfair because of her race, she needs to get over herself.

Ok help me to understand. How is she playing the race card? This isn't a job she's trying to get or keep. Its about 2 kids one being treated better than the other. does money gurantee happiness? I would think love is a gurantee which this kid want get from his dad or aunts unless they do a complet 180. let's see I have money, but I'm not wanted or love by my paternal family, let alone half of Monaco/France. I hope money does make the both of kids happy they'll need it.

PS. NC is complaining about the situation of her child.

Does anyone know of the settlment arrangements from PA for Jazmine?

 

[Neat2912]

Casiraghitrio. Noone has said NC was "complaining as such, but that what was reported in the mag that she was unhappy. That, is not complaining. But if she does, we know that's her privilege. And you're so right about all of the blessings she has. And what Alex has (Not perse NC, she's,imo the caretaker who happens to be the mother )This is the father's way of showing his support. He just has more, so he gives more. His rights are also his inherited rights. And actually the topic went off subject as magicalt2 said.

And magicalt2 thanks we'll have to stop this. People want to say what they want to say. I bid you lovely ones, good night.

 

[Grace]

Ok, let me clarify, I know nothing about Nicole more than you do, so I have absolutely no idea if she is "using" or suffering any discrimination due to her skin.
In my post I was referring to some people on the forum (and not only) that tend to label all the criticisms Nicole riceives as "racist".
That's why I talked of a shield: if all criticisms are brushed off as prejuice, the result is that you cannot voice your opinion of a person if you don't want to be accused of racism.
Personally, I didn't like some things NC has done, as I don't like some things Tamara has done, and I particularly don't like the things Albert has done, and I woud like to be able to voice my opinion of the three people involved, not prejudiced towards Nicole for the color of her skin, but not censored in my criticisms for fear of beign accused of racism either.
Hope it is clearer...

BTW, I haven't followed this thread in a while; do we know what Nicole does for a living? I assume she hasn't gone back being an hostess; do we know something from mags and interviews?

 

[paca]

BTW, I haven't followed this thread in a while; do we know what Nicole does for a living? I assume she hasn't gone back being an hostess; do we know something from mags and interviews?

I believe sometime last year her lawyer said that it would be impossible for her to go back to her old work after maternity leave due to her notority. And thus he also wanted to secure the welfare and security of the mother (hence bodyguards, nanny etc.). I haven't heard of any changes in that matter, but I don't think she needs to worry about working. She has free housing and 10 000 Euro net per month, wheras most people here call themselves lucky if they make more than 1500 euro net (which is probably what she would have received in her job as hostess).

 

[altagrace]

Let us look at facts, just the facts:
When the story about Nicole Coste came out the immediate criticisms can be summarized as follows: gold digger, she only wants publicity, she is self-centered, she trapped him, who dees she think she is etc...
When the Jazmin/Tamara story broke out, the reaction was much more subdued: Wow! really! nice girl, she was right all along.
WHy such a different reaction in what are really 2 very similar situations? (In fact you could argue Nicole was on more solid grounds having had a relationship with Albert on and off for 5 years, while Tamara was like a one-night stand or a 1 week stand) The only difference -other than race- in the situations I see is that Nicole -aided by the French media- was much more effective at making her case public than Tamara -& american lawyers- was.
So what is the explanation then why Two women in a similar situation, doing more or less the same thing are judged so differently?

You have to admit just may be Racism IS the explanantion! This is not open racism, but the worse, more subtle form, the one which hides as "criticism".

 

[Ariel]

Let us look at facts, just the facts:
When the story about Nicole Coste came out the immediate criticisms can be summarized as follows: gold digger, she only wants publicity, she is self-centered, she trapped him, who dees she think she is etc...
When the Jazmin/Tamara story broke out, the reaction was much more subdued: Wow! really! nice girl, she was right all along.
WHy such a different reaction in what are really 2 very similar situations? (In fact you could argue Nicole was on more solid grounds having had a relationship with Albert on and off for 5 years, while Tamara was like a one-night stand or a 1 week stand) The only difference -other than race- in the situations I see is that Nicole -aided by the French media- was much more effective at making her case public than Tamara -& american lawyers- was.
So what is the explanation then why Two women in a similar situation, doing more or less the same thing are judged so differently?

You have to admit just may be Racism IS the explanantion! This is not open racism, but the worse, more subtle form, the one which hides as "criticism".

I dont agree with this, but maybe you are right. I dont have any prejudice toward Nicole and dont have any preference for her or for Tamara. According to what i read from the forums is that people critize both of them, Tamara was more critiziced before JG was recognized and probably the way people reacted more calm with her could be that she was attacked a lot for 13 years until PA decided to recognize JG, so people understood she was right all the time, in any case she has been criticized a lot anyway for being golddigger, having extramarital relationship, giving photos of JG to the press for having more publicity and so on. In the case of NC, it has been wider as she has giving people more chance by giving interviews and doing photo shoots, im sure if TR do similar things, she will be criticized the same way.

Racism probably play a role for some people and that is a shame, the most important thing is that for their father and his family it doesnt look like a factor of relevance.

 

[Grace]

I've stated my personal opinion several times on this board, but I'll repeat it, hoping noone gets bored...
In both situation in my opinion the one to blame is primarly Albert, who was not mature enough and man enough to admit his responsibilities, and hiding and lieing sort of pushed both women to go to the press. This said, I really think both mothers should have dealt with the paternity thing in a more private way, in the sole interest of their children who didn't ask and didn't deserve to be put in the spotlight, open to criticisms of all sort and invasions of privacy...
In my personal opinion Nicole has been a little more "open" to the press, telling in several interviews everything about personal details of Alex's conceivement, the idea of an abortion, etc (a thing I found completely unnecessary) and several photoshops sessions, and I didn't like this behaviour.
Tamara has kept a slightly lower profile, and has been treated worse by Albert, who publicly denied over and over again Jazmin's paternity for 13 year, making Tamara look like a crazy woman, whereas, if I'm not mistaken, he never denied Alex's paternity.
So in conclusion, Albert did wrong (in my opinion), but both NC and TR could have done better in the interest of their children. And, if Nicole is really living on Albert's money, living on the money of a man only because you had a child together, brings women and their battle for equality and indipendence back 30 years.

This is my personal opinion, which has got nothing to do with race. And anyway, you probably didn't follow the Grimaldis 13 years ago, when Tamara first sued ALbert...I can tell you she was treated much worse (because Al denied) than Nicole has been, whereas now, at least in Italy, NC's and TR's treatment by the press is quite similar.

Kisses

 

[Ariel]

I agree with you Grace, wanting to make this whole story a problem or racism is not objective, as we can see that Albert in first person is not racist. The view of the people and the press can be different according to our own prejudices and the information we have available.

 

[sashajones]

Nicole should have known that her being black and a flight attendent from Togo of all places and having a sexual relationship with a white prince was not going to be well received in the royal social circle. If she and the child is experiencing any racism, she has only herself to blame. When you make your bed you have to lay in it!

 

[Neat2912]

Wanted to offer a thought that's current -I would think that PA worked with his lawyer,etc on the support,care money he gives to Alex and his mother and thus certainly feels ok about what they get to run their lives. I don't know a lot about royal father s legit or otherwise, but I would imagine it would be to at least a credit for the father to include the mother in the care of the child. What kind of image would that be for a rich father,certainly a prince?

But I wanted to give a couple of quotes just for fair information purposes:

From Royal Archives: 10/10 /2005 Craig Smith, N Y Times: He said [PA] he has "seen Alexandre only once, briefly...because of the mother's attitude toward me...not a pleasant situation....My only concern now is the well being of the kid." [not a word at any time re refusal ,but apparently uncomfortable,but it took off like wildfire and has stuck,was never corrected.]

----------------From Royal Archive: In VSD Magazine 11/19/2005
VSD."..In the NY Times, 10/10/2005 issue...and that you refuse to let him see Alexandre."" NC:"...as far as Alexandre is concerned, I am delighted when he sees him."

There is also a lengthy info piece posted by Toledo ? above in Nicole & Alex Part 3,probably about page 6 or 7.These two situations above have been thrown around for a long time, as witnessed recently, so maybe someone would like to root their opinions at least in some interviews given by the subjects in question.

 

[Toledo]

Nicole should have known that her being black and a flight attendent from Togo of all places and having a sexual relationship with a white prince was not going to be well received in the royal social circle. If she and the child is experiencing any racism, she has only herself to blame. When you make your bed you have to lay in it!

Well, on her defense, she did not create prejudice nor can be blamed for how is used against her. Prejudice be it race, religion, politics is a whole different monster of an issue too long to discuss.
As time goes by and I get to know more (thanks to the news links posted here) I've come to change my initial strong opinions and be a little more open. I put more weight on him than her in matters of responsibility, not that she is exempt of any but he is the one whose descision everyone waits for. He is the one whose acceptance of the(se) kid(s) will decide their future.

There is also a lengthy info piece posted by Toledo ? above in Nicole & Alex Part 3,probably about page 6 or 7.These two situations above have been thrown around for a long time, as witnessed recently, so maybe someone would like to root their opinions at least in some interviews given by the subjects in question.

my post # 6 was just an observation on how the Grimaldis keep us, Royal Watchers, entertained through out the years as well as an imaginary time travel to think what would the future be like for the child:

I think Albert and Nicole are one of the most interesting couple-non-couple around these days. Their lives are like a scripted TV series: surprise turns, a lot of family affairs, quarrels and family secrets, etc. Wish also we had a time machine to see how Alexandre will develop those family connections as he matures in age and becomes less dependent from his mother. Maybe one day we will see him with the whole Grimaldi clan, side by side with his cousins.

 

[Neat2912]

Re this extensive on and on interest in the racism- In my post #166 I directed my thoughts on the matter,relating to her post to Grace. May I say often double standards can be actually racist without the speaker being aware they are being so. And I really abhor the discussion because you start to feel you've totally abused someone or think someone thinks that. And folks, its really not a big thing. It was just discussion, actually for all its worth. Most people don't even read carefully what someone is expressing in their hearts and that goes for every thing we talk about on this forum. And I think I could say for Nicole, she is least likely to come out unnecessarily or at all and I personally haven't seen any word from her on that subject except that People Magazine re her being unhappy. As someone said, all three of her children are biracial.

 

[Grace]

Interesting; so having a kid with a rich person grants that you are going to be rich...what if it is the other way around? Should Steph support financially the fathers of her kids?
As for Albert not objecting, it's not the father that should object, but the sense of pride and self-respect of the mother! Of course the kids have every right to child support, but the mothers...I don't think so (and this behaviour just fuels the opinions of those who consider her a gold digger, because she really found a gold mine whether by chance or not!)

ETA: you haven't answered me: were you aware that 13 years ago TR was treated probably worse than NC when she came out? Why is that?

 

[Toledo]

Re this extensive on and on interest in the racism- In my post #166 I directed my thoughts on the matter,relating to her post to Grace. May I say often double standards can be actually racist without the speaker being aware they are being so. And I really abhor the discussion because you start to feel you've totally abused someone or think someone thinks that. And folks, its really not a big thing. It was just discussion, actually for all its worth. Most people don't even read carefully what someone is expressing in their hearts and that goes for every thing we talk about on this forum. And I think I could say for Nicole, she is least likely to come out unnecessarily or at all and I personally haven't seen any word from her on that subject except that People Magazine re her being unhappy. As someone said, all three of her children are biracial.

Often when we express ourselves many of the things placed in our minds during our own growth and they come out in the open when least expected. Sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes quite strong. That's why I'm glad that we have that Edit button and the delete button in here as well as I'm glad that when I post things I regret there is a moderator out there keeping and eye and deleting posts I would rather change. And I don't take it personal because someone has to keep us within topic or we will ramble about everything forerever and ever.

But you are right, there are times we don't express what we feel on the subject, in this case Nicole's background, but what is expressed is what was placed in our heads by society as we grew up. And we don't even notice until we put it in writing and regret about it.
A friend of mine from work, that I lost touch with when she retired ages ago, told me once never to put in writing anything that could come back to haunt you, and it always comes back...
And that's when we have to put our pride aside use the Delete or Edit option a little bit more than what we would admit to

 

[Neat2912]

Hi up there. You're a very wise person. you used my quote, but I imagine you got some of your own personal stuff in. Actually I personally am glad the moderators delete some things I say-really am. Sometimes I am very angry especailly where children are concerned. And so its ok. I really don't like offending anyone. It takes me a very long time to post several serious paragraphs, so I am conscientious. I've been around what to me is a long time, words and ideawise, but I expressed today things that I felt pertinent to something that someone has,imo, alluded to-everything. NC's background is known by certainly all of the old timers and has often been discussed. We're done with this.

 

[Neat2912]

Grace, so sorry. If you Private Message, so we don't get too heated over some body else's business. If you care to pm me. There are several Graces all with prefixes and I don't know which one. Thanks. Kisses (as you say)