The Princess of Orange, Princesses Alexia and Ariane, News Part 1 (May 2013-Jan 2019)

[HereditaryPrincess]

This is interesting to hear. Studying abroad is indeed not uncommon these days and it has been done before in royal circles. IIRC Infanta Elena's son spent a few months at a military school in America (though I think that was more to correct his behaviour than for academic study). I hope Amalia will enjoy her time in China if this report is true.

 

[Iolanthe]

It sounds really interesting and like a good idea for Amalia IMO.
But I would back Marengo's doubts - it seems more like an unconfirmed rumor at the moment. All articles I can find cite a Telegraaf-article, which is behind a paywall (https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/1668850/amalia-mogelijk-naar-internationaal-college-in-china) but seems to refer to sources in "the heart/inner circle of the royal family" as the only source to back up the story and without any further evidence
Still, the Telegraaf seems to be pretty sure about it and the idea doesn't sound impossible to me.

This video (https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/rtlboulevard/prinses-amalia-vertrekt-naar-china) sums it up surprisingly well IMO, unfortunately it's only available in Dutch.
They look back to Willem-Alexander's time at a Scottish school and speak about the probability of Amalia leaving for the school in Changshu. WA himself went to Atlantic College in Wales - the oldest UWC school. The school in Changshu is the newest UWC school (founded in 2015).
They say that WA and Maxima let their children choose their schools by themselves and that it would be more or less up to Amalia herself to decide if she wants to study abroad (and where). They think it could be nice for Amalia to be so far away from all the attention in the Netherlands, but they also think that China is to far away at this age and that they haven't really spoken about the subject in the family yet and definitely didn't decide anything yet (obviously that's all pure speculation too).

Another aspect they speak about shortly is the language, and I'm glad that they put that a bit more in perspective than some other people/articles:
Amalia may have studied Chinese at her school for a few years, but normally that's not enough to really speak Chinese fluently or even to communicate on a low level- definitely not with the quality of the Chinese lessons in the most Dutch schools (here I have to trust the information in the video- but I can say that it's certainly true for the German Chinese classes I know of). (IMO that is not because Chinese is so terribly complicated (it's not), but because it's so different to European languages, has a terribly complicated (or better learn intensive) writing system and maybe mainly because there is no "teaching and learning tradition" for Chinese in Europe). So typically Amalia may know some words in Chinese and have a vague impression about some grammar aspects, but wouldn't be able to really communicate in Chinese at this point.
Still, that doesn't speak against the plan to study at this school in Changshu IMO. It is an international (and English-speaking) school and while you have to study Chinese while you are enrolled, it seems that you are not required to speak Chinese to get admitted. So it could be a great and unique opportunity for Amalia to improve her Chinese and pursue and deepen her interest in the Chinese culture (if she indeed has this interests).

 

[gerry]

It sounds really interesting and like a good idea for Amalia IMO.
But I would back Marengo's doubts - it seems more like an unconfirmed rumor at the moment. All articles I can find cite a Telegraaf-article, which is behind a paywall (https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/1668850/amalia-mogelijk-naar-internationaal-college-in-china) but seems to refer to sources in "the heart/inner circle of the royal family" as the only source to back up the story and without any further evidence
Still, the Telegraaf seems to be pretty sure about it and the idea doesn't sound impossible to me.

This video (https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/rtlboulevard/prinses-amalia-vertrekt-naar-china) sums it up surprisingly well IMO, unfortunately it's only available in Dutch.
They look back to Willem-Alexander's time at a Scottish school and speak about the probability of Amalia leaving for the school in Changshu. WA himself went to Atlantic College in Wales - the oldest UWC school. The school in Changshu is the newest UWC school (founded in 2015).
They say that WA and Maxima let their children choose their schools by themselves and that it would be more or less up to Amalia herself to decide if she wants to study abroad (and where). They think it could be nice for Amalia to be so far away from all the attention in the Netherlands, but they also think that China is to far away at this age and that they haven't really spoken about the subject in the family yet and definitely didn't decide anything yet (obviously that's all pure speculation too).

Another aspect they speak about shortly is the language, and I'm glad that they put that a bit more in perspective than some other people/articles:
Amalia may have studied Chinese at her school for a few years, but normally that's not enough to really speak Chinese fluently or even to communicate on a low level- definitely not with the quality of the Chinese lessons in the most Dutch schools (here I have to trust the information in the video- but I can say that it's certainly true for the German Chinese classes I know of). (IMO that is not because Chinese is so terribly complicated (it's not), but because it's so different to European languages, has a terribly complicated (or better learn intensive) writing system and maybe mainly because there is no "teaching and learning tradition" for Chinese in Europe). So typically Amalia may know some words in Chinese and have a vague impression about some grammar aspects, but wouldn't be able to really communicate in Chinese at this point.
Still, that doesn't speak against the plan to study at this school in Changshu IMO. It is an international (and English-speaking) school and while you have to study Chinese while you are enrolled, it seems that you are not required to speak Chinese to get admitted. So it could be a great and unique opportunity for Amalia to improve her Chinese and pursue and deepen her interest in the Chinese culture (if she indeed has this interests).

The Telegraaf is most definitely not a reliable Dutch news source; some consider it a Dutch version of the Daily Fail However, because the King attended Atlantic College, I am certain that the Princess of Orange will follow his lead and choose a similar Round Square school!

 

[Countessmeout]

Perhaps some half truth Like maybe not a full transfer, simply an exchange program?? It would certainly be a good experience for her, and a great way for her to learn Chinese. She is definitely a good age for an exchange year and it is quite common now a days. And has been for royals in the past, to spend time studying abroad, even before college. While boarding schools have become less common for royals now a days, exchange programs for commoners certainly becoming more popular. I always wanted to when I was in school but because of dental issues, couldn't be over seas for months at a time. Got the opportunity in University to spend a semester in Cuba.

The UWC has 17 locations (every continent but Australia well and Antarctica). The one in the Uk her dad attended was started by the same man who started Gordonstoun, and the Queen and Charles are both presidents of the school.

A few royals who did it before the university level:
-WA as said in Wales
-Prince Charles spent two terms at a school in Australia
-Andrew went to school for part of a year in Ontario
-Felipe attended the same school in Canada as Andrew
-Elena's daughter Victoria went to boarding school in London
-Frolian did both school in London and the US
-the three oldest Lux princes all went to school in Switzerland, Sebastian attended two schools in the UK.
-Fred and Joachim spent time at a boarding school in Normandy

I think its great for her to get a chance to be like other students, as well as to really experience another country and learn the language. It is good for most people, but would be good for a future queen.

 

[kathia_sophia]

I really hope it turns out to be true. It will be a great opportunity for Amalia, she'll get new friends, learn about another culture, learn to speak fluent chinese and, of course, live the life of a commoner for a period of time. I support going to another country to study, I will try to do the same as well, I intend to enroll a Japanese University for a Master's degree this year.
I wonder if Alexia and Ariane have been studying chinese as well, or if they choosen a different language. I think Leonor and Sofia of Spain have chinese classes as well.
BTW, Amalia is studying mandarin or cantonese?

 

[Countessmeout]

I really hope it turns out to be true. It will be a great opportunity for Amalia, she'll get new friends, learn about another culture, learn to speak fluent chinese and, of course, live the life of a commoner for a period of time. I support going to another country to study, I will try to do the same as well, I intend to enroll a Japanese University for a Master's degree this year.
I wonder if Alexia and Ariane have been studying chinese as well, or if they choosen a different language. I think Leonor and Sofia of Spain have chinese classes as well.
BTW, Amalia is studying mandarin or cantonese?

A few articles I have seen said 'turning their head to mandarin'.

Not sure if her sisters are studying Chinese as well. I have seen no mention.

And yes, Leonor is said to be learning Mandarin as well.

 

[Marengo]

The Telegraaf, which revealed the news earlier, now checked the website of the school in Changshu. It seems that after the news was made public, the school posted a message in Dutch on their website, saying:
’de aanmelding voor de schooljaren 2018-2020 is gesloten' (the application for the school year 2018-2020 has been closed).

The king and queen also kept the choice of secondary school secret for as long as possible.

**
It is handy that the princess learns Chinese, it is nice that she will get some experience of being on herself, it is nice that she does so in an international environment.

However, I do hope that this boarding school is not succeeded by an immediate x-year university study abroad as well. An extended education abroad may be normal for the internationalist jetset friends of the king and queen. It may be great training for a future UN-carreer as well. But for the vast majority of the population it is not relatable at all. I still remember the king and queen being critisized by -of all things- the Orange associations, for living an international jetset life.

Some international experience can come in handy, but for her future task it is absolutely vital that she knows her own country through and through. In the end most of her duties will be cutting ribbons at noble causes in towns and villages all over the country. I understand that for the royals themselves the UN-jobs are far more interesting, but we do not have a royal family to provide Dutch UN-ambassadors. The civil service will be more than capable of doing that.

Furthermore, what does it say about our education system if it is not good enough for our own crown princess? From her 18th birthday she will receive 1,5 million euros per year from the Dutch state. Attending a few public events would be nice. As China is not next-door, I wonder if we will see the princess as King's Day in the next years.

 

[Countessmeout]

Even if she is enrolled, is it assured she is going to do her entire schooling there, or perhaps only go for a year or so? I don't see her disappearing off to China for three years and never being seen.

Studying abroad is not only for 'the children of jet setters'. Many royals, including heirs, have studied abroad both at her age and college. While certainly we should expect her to do some events when she is 18 and getting money, her focus should still be on her schooling. Even if she spent a term, or a year of her university, abroad she could easily be back for events.

Perhaps a route like Felipe would be considered if she would like to study abroad further. He did his first degree in Spain before doing his masters in foreign studies in the US. Victoria spent time at university in France and Yale, while also completing a degree at Upsala and a diplomacy program.

I am sure a balance will be found for the future queen. Like her father, she will not have as much freedom of school choice as her sisters. Friso studied at Berkley (though he also did degrees in the Netherlands). Constantijn did his masters degree in France.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Amalia's father studied at Leyden University (History).
Amalia's uncle Friso studied at the Technical University Deflt (Aeronautics) and the Erasmus University Rotterdam (Economics).
Amalia's uncle Constantijn studied at Leyden University (Law).

But all the three of them have had pre- and post- academical schooling in foreign countries, which undoubtedly helped them. I think Princess Amalia will follow the footsteps of her father and uncles and study in the Netherlands as well.

 

[pinolovertje]

Princess Ariane broke her wrist last sunday when she was ice skating the RVD announced this morning. It was diagnosed durinv a hospital check-up. She will have 3 weeks of plaster. Probably she will be able to ski in Lech during the spring break her doctor says.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Poor Ariane. Katie Couric would label it "typically Dutch": Making a nasty fall during ice skating. ;-)

Get well soon, Ariane.

 

[Muhler]

Poor girl. Didn't her older sister pull a similar stunt a couple of years ago?

Well, the great thing about being a child is that you recover easily and quickly from injuries we adults would take months to recover from.

 

[pinolovertje]

I thought Princess Alexia broke her leg during ski holidays a few years ago

 

[Marengo]

Even if she is enrolled, is it assured she is going to do her entire schooling there, or perhaps only go for a year or so? I don't see her disappearing off to China for three years and never being seen.

Studying abroad is not only for 'the children of jet setters'. Many royals, including heirs, have studied abroad both at her age and college. While certainly we should expect her to do some events when she is 18 and getting money, her focus should still be on her schooling. Even if she spent a term, or a year of her university, abroad she could easily be back for events.

Perhaps a route like Felipe would be considered if she would like to study abroad further. He did his first degree in Spain before doing his masters in foreign studies in the US. Victoria spent time at university in France and Yale, while also completing a degree at Upsala and a diplomacy program.

I am sure a balance will be found for the future queen. Like her father, she will not have as much freedom of school choice as her sisters. Friso studied at Berkley (though he also did degrees in the Netherlands). Constantijn did his masters degree in France.

I suppose it is a 2-year program, so the idea is to finish the secondary school in China? The RVD has not confirmed anything yet, so we will see. We only see the princess three times per year: at winter- and holiday photo sessions and at King's Day, so it can not decrease so much . It would be nice if she was able to continue to attend those things, so people do not forget that we do have a crown princess.

The average tuition fee for the school is 320.000,- Yuan, which is 40.000 euros. Per year. Not money that most people can miss easily.
Fees | UWC Changshu China

I agree that studying abroad can be a very nice thing to do and that it is more common these days, though an exception still. The vast majority of the population does not even go to university, let alone do so abroad. However, I do not argue that the princess should not go abroad at all. Or that she should do everything the way that 'the average Dutch person' would do. She is in a special position and from an affluent family after all.

It would be nice and IMHO necessary that the most important part of her higher education will be done in this country - which has excellent universities too. From her 18th birthday she will be expected to join more formal events, she will become a member of the Counsel of State and from her 18th birthday she can be called to the throne without a regency.

As you say, a Dutch degree first and a limited master/post master program abroad would be logical & the most tested approach indeed (not for the King though). A gap year of 'looking for herself' in South America or Asia also is a regular thing to do for many students these days. It will be something that I am sure most people would not mind. A continuum of 8-10 years abroad should however be -and probably is- out of the question.

--

BTW apparently Nelson Mandela was a honorary president of the UWC school group.

Princess Ariane broke her wrist last sunday when she was ice skating the RVD announced this morning. It was diagnosed durinv a hospital check-up. She will have 3 weeks of plaster. Probably she will be able to ski in Lech during the spring break her doctor says.

Thanks for the update. A painful thing indeed, let's hope it is not the wrist of the side with which she writes.

 

[Somebody]

I really hope it turns out to be true. It will be a great opportunity for Amalia, she'll get new friends, learn about another culture, learn to speak fluent chinese and, of course, live the life of a commoner for a period of time. I support going to another country to study, I will try to do the same as well, I intend to enroll a Japanese University for a Master's degree this year.
I wonder if Alexia and Ariane have been studying chinese as well, or if they choosen a different language. I think Leonor and Sofia of Spain have chinese classes as well.
BTW, Amalia is studying mandarin or cantonese?

Chinese is offered at their secondary school starting in year 2. So, Amalia only started attending classes a year and a half ago. Alexia might decide to take these classes from next year.

And of course, like all other Dutch students at the gymnasium level, both Amalia and Alexia have English, German and French classes. Chinese is additional, not instead of other languages.

Linked to the three regular language courses the school offers exchange programs in 4th grade (most like short programs) for France, Germsny and the USA - according to their website.

Furthermore, we have to keep in mind that Willem-Alexander went to boarding school because he had issues at home. It didn't go well between him and his parents at that point, so far, we've seen no sign that something similar is going on with Amalia. So, of course, she might like to attend a school abroad but there seems to be less need and the Dutch gymnasium program with a plus program is very high level, so no reason to opt for a more general education elsewhere.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]

And of course, like all other Dutch students at the gymnasium level, both Amalia and Alexia have English, German and French classes. Chinese is additional, not instead of other languages.

[...]

Plus the obligatory classic Latin and classic Greek languages, which are part of the traditional curriculum of a Gymnasium. (A similar curriculum but without the classic languages is given at an Atheneum.)

 

[Mbruno]

Now I understand the high frequency of the visits between President Xi Jinping and the King (in 4 years time meetings betwee the two at the Chinese State Visit to the Netherlands, the Chinese visit to the The Hague Nuclear Summit, the Dutch State Visit to China and the Dutch Official Visit to China)



It is a challenging choice for the Princess of Orange but a very good one. To learn Chinese and to study in the world's upcoming superpower and to make friends for life there is never a bad idea!

Is English the language of instruction at UWC Changsu ?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Is English the language of instruction at UWC Changsu ?

Yes, it is a British college in China. But undoubtedly she will improve her Chinese language, simply because she will be surrounded by more than a billion Chineses...

 

[Iolanthe]

Yes, it is a British college in China. But undoubtedly she will improve her Chinese language, simply because she will be surrounded by more than a billion Chineses...

and all students are required to take at least a 2 year Chinese Class, while they are enrolled. (http://www.uwcchina.org/en/ib-diploma-programme)

more information about the Chinese programmes of the school:

UWC常熟世界联合学院

 

[Somebody]

Plus the obligatory classic Latin and classic Greek languages, which are part of the traditional curriculum of a Gymnasium. (A similar curriculum but without the classic languages is given at an Atheneum.)

Indeed, although most students take final exams only in either greek or latin (I did both but that there were only a few of us and according to my sister-in-law who teaches these subjectsit is still uncommon for students to kerp both subjects until the end of highschool).

I don't expect UWC to offer these classes so from a Dutch perspective she would receive a 'lower' secondary degree although both atheneum and gymnasium give access to university studies.

 

[Iolanthe]

I don't expect UWC to offer these classes so from a Dutch perspective she would receive a 'lower' secondary degree although both atheneum and gymnasium give access to university studies.

They seem to teach English, French, Spanish, German and Chinese in Changshu. So indeed no Greek or Latin, but Amalia could at least continue to study all the other languages she speaks/learns.

 

[Mbruno]

They seem to teach English, French, Spanish, German and Chinese in Changshu. So indeed no Greek or Latin, but Amalia could at least continue to study all the other languages she speaks/learns.

If it is a standard IB Diploma program, I understand students have to take two languages, Mathematics, a natural science, and a social science, plus one additional subject, which can be either an arts subject, a second natural science or social science subject, a third language, or Further Mathematics.

 

[Somebody]

They seem to teach English, French, Spanish, German and Chinese in Changshu. So indeed no Greek or Latin, but Amalia could at least continue to study all the other languages she speaks/learns.

Most students would quit studying either German or French at some point (obligated in the first three years but not in the second three years). Given her position she might be encouraged or decide to keep all. However, the only thing that distinguishes the atheneum from the more highly regarded gymnasium diploma is latin and greek. And she picked gymnasium for secondary school (at a high school that only offers this type of education; it would also have been possible to study at the gymnasium stream at a school that also offers atheneum and HAVO the middle level of secondary education) but she preferred this specific school/stream.

The IB program offers fewer subjects than her Dutch high school.

 

[Iolanthe]

If it is a standard IB Diploma program, I understand students have to take two languages, Mathematics, a natural science, and a social science, plus one additional subject, which can be either an arts subject, a second natural science or social science subject, a third language, or Further Mathematics.

That's more or less how it's described on the UWC Changshu website.
I am never sure what to think about IB programs. Six subjects doesn't seem much to me (at least compared to the Netherlands or Germany, the systems I am most familiar with), but it seems to work out as the IB diplomas are recognized almost everywhere and I'm not aware of much criticism of the concept.
And of course it's actually more about the quality of the subjects and not so much about the sheer amount...

Most students would quit studying either German or French at some point (obligated in the first three years but not in the second three years). Given her position she might be encouraged or decide to keep all. However, the only thing that distinguishes the atheneum from the more highly regarded gymnasium diploma is latin and greek. And she picked gymnasium for secondary school (at a high school that only offers this type of education; it would also have been possible to study at the gymnasium stream at a school that also offers atheneum and HAVO the middle level of secondary education) but she preferred this specific school/stream.

So would you think it would be an odd decision by Amalia to discontinue her study of Greek/Latin, because she initially choose a school that stands out because of Greek/Latin?

I obviously don't know, but maybe she picked that specific school not because of Latin and/or Greek but because she likes languages in general and they offered more than other schools? Or she just liked the overall atmosphere there? Or maybe a friend went there and that's why she choose it too - that's how the most children I know choose there school

Does a gymnasium count more than an atheneum in the Netherlands today? Officially it obviously doesn't, but is it regarded as something "better" by many Dutch people? (And if so, would you think that's because of Latin and Greek or maybe more because some people think that because of Greek and Latin other people/better students choose for gymnasiums and so the education is better in general?)

Speaking about gynmasium/atheneum etc.: Do we know if Willem-Alexander learned Greek/Latin at his Dutch schools eg. if he went to the atheneum or gymnasium branches of his schools?

 

[Lee-Z]

Does a gymnasium count more than an atheneum in the Netherlands today? Officially it obviously doesn't, but is it regarded as something "better" by many Dutch people?

imo not really, it offers the same chances in further education and job choice. Taken classical languages is more a matter of interest and interest in learning of the pupil.
For me this explanation sums it up pretty well:
https://www.luzac.nl/voortgezet-onderwijs/over-luzac/onderwijsvisie/onderwijsniveaus/

translate.google.com/translate

I took a couple of years of Latin in high school and enjoined it mainly because of the basis it gave for other languages and sciences, but eventually dropped it (more of a science person )

 

[Iolanthe]

Thank you Lee-Z! I had always about the same impression (but I only went to University in the Netherlands, so I am not an expert in the rest of the Dutch education system).
But reading your link I get the impression that a Gynmasium is nevertheless regarded as something at least a bit better or more difficult than Atheneum?

> Een gymnasiumleerling vindt leren leuk en uitdagend (Gymnasium students love to learn)
This implies imo that Atheneum students don't like to learn?!
>> Bovendien kiest een gymnasiumleerling er bewust voor om harder te werken dan een vwo-leerling (Gymnasium students intentionally choose to work harder than (other) VWO students).
So while they state that Gnymasium and Atheneum educations are at the same level, they still say that a Gynmasium is harder (and that makes an atheneum easier). Isn't that a bit weird?
(BTW as a linguist I have to say that I always find it odd and definitely wrong to attach so much meaning to specific languages or language talent in general as all languages have their own kind of complexities and it's really pretty individual and subjective which languages you find more easy/difficult to learn and why (and often its because you like or dislike the teacher)).

(I never could and still can't handle reading/writing Dutch and English at the same time, sorry for all the mistakes...)

 

[Somebody]

Latin and Greek is not only about the languages. Nowadays it alsp includes the subject 'Classical Cultural Education', so these students are seen as more broadly educated. Choosing a categorical gymnasium (as Amalia and Alexia did) even more so as all there peers apparently have the same high level and broad interest.

In the earlier years latin and greek are additional subjects, so more difficult in that respect. Furthermore, they are considered to be among the harder subjects, so students need a good study ethic to complete these subjects successfully.

Another difference between atheneum and gymnasium is that you might find former HAVO students in the final 2 years at the atheneum level but not at the gymnasium level, so there is a clear difference in terms of peers. You won't choose to do gymnasium unless you are sufficiently motivated to do the extra work.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Princess Ariane broke her wrist last sunday when she was ice skating the RVD announced this morning. It was diagnosed durinv a hospital check-up. She will have 3 weeks of plaster. Probably she will be able to ski in Lech during the spring break her doctor says.

Oh dear. I hope Ariane will get better soon.

 

[Somebody]

That's more or less how it's described on the UWC Changshu website.
I am never sure what to think about IB programs. Six subjects doesn't seem much to me (at least compared to the Netherlands or Germany, the systems I am most familiar with), but it seems to work out as the IB diplomas are recognized almost everywhere and I'm not aware of much criticism of the concept.
And of course it's actually more about the quality of the subjects and not so much about the sheer amount...

IB is internationally recognized and offers certain experiences that a Dutch gymnasium education wouldn't but the overall level would imo by higher at the gymnasium. There are far fewer students who are able to complete it successfully compared to the IB programme.

So would you think it would be an odd decision by Amalia to discontinue her study of Greek/Latin, because she initially choose a school that stands out because of Greek/Latin?

I obviously don't know, but maybe she picked that specific school not because of Latin and/or Greek but because she likes languages in general and they offered more than other schools? Or she just liked the overall atmosphere there? Or maybe a friend went there and that's why she choose it too - that's how the most children I know choose there school

Not completely odd but something to consider as the general level is lower; although most IB programs offer many electives, so she will learn other things that might interest her.

Does a gymnasium count more than an atheneum in the Netherlands today? Officially it obviously doesn't, but is it regarded as something "better" by many Dutch people? (And if so, would you think that's because of Latin and Greek or maybe more because some people think that because of Greek and Latin other people/better students choose for gymnasiums and so the education is better in general?)

Speaking about gynmasium/atheneum etc.: Do we know if Willem-Alexander learned Greek/Latin at his Dutch schools eg. if he went to the atheneum or gymnasium branches of his schools?

I believe he did atheneum. Never heard of him doing gymnasium but the school did offer the gymnasium stream.

 

[Lee-Z]

Oh dear. I hope Ariane will get better soon.

Hope so too; 3 weeks of plaster will mean that she is still wearing it at the time of the annual photoshoot in Lech (26th of feb, if i'm not mistaken)