The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #201  
Old 07-22-2019, 08:21 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,560
For so far all male consorts have had their name and/or title included for their children: Albert von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Félix de Bourbon de Parme, Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, Philip Mountbatten, Claus von Amsberg, Henri de Laborde de Monpezat. The only two exceptions were Pierre de Polignac (he took the surname Grimaldi) and Daniel Westling. When Amalia marries, for an example, a Graf von Waldburg-Zeil und Hohenems, it would surprise me not to see his title, surname and arms returning in his children. It had always been done so. After all these are as much his children as hers
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 07-22-2019, 08:26 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The only two exceptions were Pierre de Polignac (he took the surname Grimaldi) and Daniel Westling.
Daniel actually added the name Bernadotte to Westling and is now known as Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte in the Civil registry
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 07-22-2019, 09:29 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Daniel actually added the name Bernadotte to Westling and is now known as Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte in the Civil registry

But he didn't pass the name Westling to his descendants, which was Duc's point I guess.


By contrast, the descendants in male line of Prince Philip or Prince Claus who are not HRHs use the names respectively Mountbatten-Windsor and van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 07-23-2019, 04:51 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
But he didn't pass the name Westling to his descendants, which was Duc's point I guess.

By contrast, the descendants in male line of Prince Philip or Prince Claus who are not HRHs use the names respectively Mountbatten-Windsor and van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.
Yes, that was the point ideed.

The children of Prince Claus bear his predicate and surname. His arms is used as a heartshield in those of his children: picture

The children of Prince Henrik bear his title and surname. His arms is used as a heartshield in those of his children: picture

I can not imagine that an eventual title or arms of a future spouse to Princess Elisabeth, Princess Amalia, etc. would be left aside in the titulature of their children. That would be an end to tradition. After all, the children are as much his as hers.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:26 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,169
I got the point but just wanted to point out that the situation wasn´t exactly the same in the cases of Pierre Polignac and Daniel Westling. Neither could it have been the same since atleast the children of the Swedish monarch and the children of the heir doesn´t carry any surnames.
Although only speculation I wonder how they would have solved it if Daniel had a Swedish noble title that he quite understandably wanted to pass on to his children since these titles are connected to the surname and the King seems adamant that Estelle and Oscar are part of the Bernadotte Dynasty. You´re not the Count of Oxenstierna, but Count Oxenstierna so to add that to the titles would in effect give them a surname.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:44 AM
theroyalfly's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: N/A, Australia
Posts: 1,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I got the point but just wanted to point out that the situation wasn´t exactly the same in the cases of Pierre Polignac and Daniel Westling. Neither could it have been the same since atleast the children of the Swedish monarch and the children of the heir doesn´t carry any surnames.
Although only speculation I wonder how they would have solved it if Daniel had a Swedish noble title that he quite understandably wanted to pass on to his children since these titles are connected to the surname and the King seems adamant that Estelle and Oscar are part of the Bernadotte Dynasty. You´re not the Count of Oxenstierna, but Count Oxenstierna so to add that to the titles would in effect give them a surname.
This might be brought up once the Crown Princess ascends the throne or else even through 'titles of nobility' like Prince Henrik's (Count of Monpezat) that was added by Queen Margrethe in 2008 to their sons and their legitimate patrilineal descendants of both sexes, the Westling name will only be forgotten.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:01 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
This might be brought up once the Crown Princess ascends the throne or else even through 'titles of nobility' like Prince Henrik's (Count of Monpezat) that was added by Queen Margrethe in 2008 to their sons and their legitimate patrilineal descendants of both sexes, the Westling name will only be forgotten.
I realised that I might be wrong. There are members of the Swedish nobility that for different reasons go by other surnames than that of their family. Though I'm not sure how that would work in titled families. Could you be f ex Count Andersson when the name of your family really is Count Ekeblad. Anyway having a Prince XX, Duke of XX, Count Ekeblad who's still a Bernadotte would seem possible.
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:56 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I realised that I might be wrong. There are members of the Swedish nobility that for different reasons go by other surnames than that of their family. Though I'm not sure how that would work in titled families. Could you be f ex Count Andersson when the name of your family really is Count Ekeblad. Anyway having a Prince XX, Duke of XX, Count Ekeblad who's still a Bernadotte would seem possible.

I am really confused about how those titles work in Sweden and, in all those years, I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer.

From what I understand, nobility is no longer regulated by law in Sweden and new nobility cannot be conferred. Moreover, it appears that titles are neither part of someone's legal name nor appear in any official document like passports or birth certificates. On the other hand, however, the House of Nobility still exists as a private civic association and the families represented therein are still privately referred to by their titles, which, I guess, is not forbidden by law.


If the Crown Princess or any other Princess of Sweden for that matter married a member of the Swedish nobility whose title passed automatically by birth to all male-line descendants, I suppose that her children could use their father's family title in the same way that some members of the Royal Family who are not members of the Royal House (e.g. Princess Désirée) are referred to by the Royal Court by their husbands' titles . In fact, the Court has a systematic habit, in guest lists for example, of using titles of nobility..
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:22 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: New Delhi, India
Posts: 74
Heirs, Spares and marriages

I know the names I'm going to mention are children and the days of Dynastic/arranged marriages are long gone but it's just hypothetical

So, as we know that two heirs to the thrones cannot marry as they're supposed to be king/Queen of their respective countries eg.

Prince George/Princess Estelle
Prince Christan/Princess Leonor
Prince Constantine/Princess Ingrid

But what about the second child(ren) aka the Spare. Who are also in line of succession but behind their parents (if grandparents are the Monarchs), older siblings and future children of their siblings. Can two Spares get married like
Princess Charlotte/Prince Oscar
Princess Sofia/Prince Achileas-Andreas
Prince Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway/Princess Isabella ?

Again, it's just a hypothetical question
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:01 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Top End, Australia
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenEmpath View Post
I know the names I'm going to mention are children and the days of Dynastic/arranged marriages are long gone but it's just hypothetical

So, as we know that two heirs to the thrones cannot marry as they're supposed to be king/Queen of their respective countries eg.

Prince George/Princess Estelle
Prince Christan/Princess Leonor
Prince Constantine/Princess Ingrid

But what about the second child(ren) aka the Spare. Who are also in line of succession but behind their parents (if grandparents are the Monarchs), older siblings and future children of their siblings. Can two Spares get married like
Princess Charlotte/Prince Oscar
Princess Sofia/Prince Achileas-Andreas
Prince Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway/Princess Isabella ?

Again, it's just a hypothetical question
I can't see any reason why they could not. Although they are the spares, the chances of two spares, who married each other, coming to the throne of their individual countries would be quite remote.

The only issue I can see is that, as we all know, many of the Royal Families are related, albeit more distantly nowadays. Nevertheless, concerns about inherited genetic problems would no doubt be looked into. I don't think anyone wants a return to the sad days of dynastic marriages producing children with serious health problems because genetics was not understood or poorly understood.
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:22 AM
theroyalfly's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: N/A, Australia
Posts: 1,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
And even before that , Lord Mountbatten reportedly tried to match King Carl Gustaf with Princess Anne, but apparently Carl Gustaf was not interested.

Those British/Swedish matches are recurrent because members of the two royal houses really match very well in terms of age and religion. Madeleine for example would have been perfect for William.

I like the idea of Gabriel and Leonor, or Elisabeth and a Lichtenstein Prince. After the fall of the monarchy in France, Italy, Portugal , Bavaria and Austria, there are few reigning Catholic royal families and An interdynastic marriage between those who are left would be great. I guess the last one involving ruling families was between GD Jean and Princess Josephine Charlotte and that was a long time ago.

EDIT: It has just occurred to me that , if Elisabeth of Belgium married one of the younger sons of Prince Alois, for example Nikolaus who is about her age I think, then her children, including the possible future King or Queen of the Belgians , would also be in the Jacobite line of succession to the British throne, wouldn’t they ? That would be an interesting development !
This is so true. There's just a few remaining Catholic royal families and yes, Leonor and Gabriel would be a great match.

Actually the last interdynastic marriage to date was with Prince Nikolaus of Liechtenstein and Princess Margaretha of Luxembourg (m. 1982)

As with Elisabeth marrying Nikolaus, it's a beautiful combination too. The Jacobite line of succession will surely be a great point of topic if that's the case.

Any Princesses for Pablo Nicolás Urdangarin? He is growing up so fast and is very handsome too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:40 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 2,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The children of Prince Henrik bear his title and surname. His arms is used as a heartshield in those of his children: picture
Yes, but only in the arms of Prince Joachim. The heartshield in Crown Prince Frederik's arms uses the Oldenburg arms only.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:14 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post

As with Elisabeth marrying Nikolaus, it's a beautiful combination too. The Jacobite line of succession will surely be a great point of topic if that's the case.
Maybe on this board and maybe they might be interested in Belgium and Lichtenstein, butI'm thinking in the UK (or at least England, Wales and N. Ireland) people would a) have to be reminded what the Jacobite claim is and b) be reminded that Belgium has a Royal Family. Not much news gets reported on other royal families at all.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:09 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 9,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post

Any Princesses for Pablo Nicolás Urdangarin? He is growing up so fast and is very handsome too.
Maybe Elisabeth von Lattorf, daughter of Princess Tatiana of Liechtenstein?

Also Crown Prince Moulay Hasan of Morocco and Princess Salma bint Abdullah of Jordan would be a great match.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
future, marriage, royal children


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abu dhabi american history anastasia once upon a time ancestry armstrong-jones baptism british royal family british royals cht commonwealth countries countess of snowdon cover-up customs daisy dutch royals family life family tree games gustaf vi adolf haakon vii history imperial household interesting introduction israel jack brooksbank jacobite jewelry jumma kent kids movie king willem-alexander książ castle line of succession list of rulers mailing maxima nepal nepalese royal family plantinum jubilee popularity prince charles prince charles of luxembourg prince constantijn princess ariane princess catharina-amalia princess chulabhorn princess elizabeth pronunciation queen consort queen maud queen maxima royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royal wedding russian court dress spain speech startling new evidence taiwan thailand tradition united kingdom videos wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:54 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×