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  #21  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:12 PM
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Didn't the Greek Crown Prince use the title Duke of Sparta in the past?
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  #22  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Duke of York is not always second son. It has traditionally been given as such, but not always. Harry wont become Duke of York when his dad is king, Andrew will still be. Louis wont be Duke of York when his dad is king, Andrew will still be alive.
.
And who is Andrew.... The second son of the reigning monarch when he was born. I never implied that Andrew's title would be taken away once his mother died.

@mbruno thank you for the explanation of Spain. I think my confusion came from an article I read that referred to one of Felipe's sisters as a Princess of Austuria. But your explanation helps, so Christina is an Infanta?
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  #23  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
And who is Andrew.... The second son of the reigning monarch when he was born. I never implied that Andrew's title would be taken away once his mother died.

@mbruno thank you for the explanation of Spain. I think my confusion came from an article I read that referred to one of Felipe's sisters as a Princess of Austuria. But your explanation helps, so Christina is an Infanta?
Yes, both Elena and Cristina are Infantas. Leonor is now the Princess of Asturias and her sister , Sofia, is also an Infanta. All of the above are HRHs though.
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  #24  
Old 06-10-2018, 07:54 PM
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In Spain a surname consists of first the paternal and second the maternal surname but I believe parents can choose to change the normal order. A few people, for example the former prime minister Zapatero, choose to be known by their maternal surname but still the first (paternal normally) surname is passed on (Rodríguez in his case).
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  #25  
Old 06-10-2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Shouldn’t her children have their father’s name as last name ? If she marries another royal, I can see her children getting a compound name ,, but, if she marries a commoner, do you think the children will get the maternal name before the paternal one ?
All children of non-British queens regnant in Europe since the 17th century have used their mother's name or the names of both parents if in need of a surname, and gender equality has made significant progress in Europe over the recent centuries. I would be highly surprised if Leonor, Ingrid Alexandra, Elisabeth, Catharina-Amalia, or Estelle did not pass on their names to their legitimate children.

In Spain, because the first surname is the name that is passed on, Leonor's children would need to be de Borbón Rodríguez in order to pass on the Borbón name to Leonor's grandchildren.

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Just to compare, Infanta Elena’s children are “ de Marichalar y Borbón”, not the inverse and, in the short style, they are called only “don/doña xxx de Marichalar”
That's so, but Infanta Elena's children were never expected to ascend the throne. If Felipe and Letizia had never had children, I believe that Felipe de Marichalar y Borbón would have changed the order of his surnames in due course.
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  #26  
Old 06-10-2018, 09:55 PM
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I especially like the title of Dauphine. I like the fact that Dauphine Marie Therese of France, Duchess of Angouleme, had previously been born a French princess.
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  #27  
Old 06-10-2018, 11:01 PM
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I especially like the title of Dauphine. I like the fact that Dauphine Marie Therese of France, Duchess of Angouleme, had previously been born a French princess.
It was common for a French prince to marry a French princess. Especially when the heir to the throne wasn't the son of the king he was succeeding. In Marie's case, she was the only living child of Louis the 16th. Her marriage to the heir of her Uncle Charles, was meant to secure the claim of Charles and his son to the throne. Louis was followed by 2 brothers, Charles being the second, though he and his son of course both had to abdicate.

We see other examples throughout French history. Though dauphine was a newer title. Margaret of Valois, daughter of Henry II and wife of Henry IV is another good example.
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  #28  
Old 06-10-2018, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
And who is Andrew.... The second son of the reigning monarch when he was born. I never implied that Andrew's title would be taken away once his mother died.

@mbruno thank you for the explanation of Spain. I think my confusion came from an article I read that referred to one of Felipe's sisters as a Princess of Austuria. But your explanation helps, so Christina is an Infanta?
Yes but he ceases to be the 2nd son of the monarch when his mother dies. He will be the brother of the monarch, the uncle of the monarch, the great uncle possibly of the monarch.

Duke of York doesn't denote a 2nd son. Yes, it has been customary, but not a rule. You know Prince of Wales is the eldest son/heir of the monarch, plain and simple. We know the Duke of Cornwall is the eldest son of the monarch plain and simple. These titles and who hold them is clear. Duke of York is not. Duke of York is inheritable, though only once has a Duke of York who was the son of a monarch, had a son to pass it to.

If Andrew remarried and had a son. Or Beatice had been Prince Bruce, the 2nd duke of York would never have been a 2nd son of the monarch.


Your point was you know automatically- Duke of York equals 2nd son of the monarch. That isn't true, it currently is, but not permanently.
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  #29  
Old 06-11-2018, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Yes but he ceases to be the 2nd son of the monarch when his mother dies. He will be the brother of the monarch, the uncle of the monarch, the great uncle possibly of the monarch.

Duke of York doesn't denote a 2nd son. Yes, it has been customary, but not a rule. You know Prince of Wales is the eldest son/heir of the monarch, plain and simple. We know the Duke of Cornwall is the eldest son of the monarch plain and simple. These titles and who hold them is clear. Duke of York is not. Duke of York is inheritable, though only once has a Duke of York who was the son of a monarch, had a son to pass it to.

If Andrew remarried and had a son. Or Beatice had been Prince Bruce, the 2nd duke of York would never have been a 2nd son of the monarch.


Your point was you know automatically- Duke of York equals 2nd son of the monarch. That isn't true, it currently is, but not permanently.
Now this explanation makes sense, the earlier one was lacking. The title would have passed to his sons if he had them.
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  #30  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:05 AM
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In Monaco
The heir is indeed The hereditary Prince of Monaco, but has the Title of Marquis des Baux, A title belonging to the Prince Souverain (Reigning Prince, but that is when possible passed to the first male heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Monegasque throne.

In France, the heir, was Dauphin of France, more precisely the title is Dauphin of Viennois

In Greece, the Heir was The Diadochos

As for the Duke of York, indeed it is traditionally the title of the second son of the monarch in England, and Duke of Albany in Scotland.
I think to solve the issues with these titles, they should be linked, Duke of York and Albany, they should work once linked be like the title Princess Royal. Not transferable, and once the holder is deceased, it reverts to the crown, and then it would be available again to be issued to the second son of the monarch at that moment
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  #31  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:20 AM
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Prince Royal of Portugal was used by the Portuguese Monarchy .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Royal_of_Portugal
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  #32  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Prince Royal of Portugal was used by the Portuguese Monarchy .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Royal_of_Portugal
Didn’t the Portuguese heir use the title of Prince of Brazil at some point ? I think Prince Royal started to be used after Brazil became independent.
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  #33  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
In Monaco
The heir is indeed The hereditary Prince of Monaco, but has the Title of Marquis des Baux, A title belonging to the Prince Souverain (Reigning Prince, but that is when possible passed to the first male heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Monegasque throne.
Isn't that a recent practice that commenced when Prince Albert II was the Hereditary Prince of Monaco? The heirs to the Monegasque throne were known as Duke/Duchess of Valentinois for centuries until it became more common to title them Hereditary Prince/Princess. I think Hereditary Prince Albert was given the title Marquis des Baux instead of Duke of Valentinois because his grandmother, ex-Hereditary Princess Charlotte, was still alive and held the title Duchess of Valentinois at the time of his birth.

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Didn’t the Portuguese heir use the title of Prince of Brazil at some point ? I think Prince Royal started to be used after Brazil became independent.
While the article does not state what its source is, it says the title "Prince Royal of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarves" was not created until 1815, which is consistent with Brazil's elevation from a colony to a kingdom the same year, and the fact that the future Emperor Pedro I of Brazil was referred to as Prince Royal when he became heir to the Portuguese and Brazilian thrones, whereas his father was referred to as Prince of Brazil until he became Prince Regent (when Brazil was still a colony).

Here is Spain's announcement of the court mourning for José, Prince of Brazil (Pedro's uncle) in 1788.

https://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1...0714-00714.pdf

"Con motivo de la muerte del Príncipe del Brasil tomará esta Corte luto por 15 dias contados desde 24 del corriente."
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  #34  
Old 06-11-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Isn't that a recent practice that commenced when Prince Albert II was the Hereditary Prince of Monaco? The heirs to the Monegasque throne were known as Duke/Duchess of Valentinois for centuries until it became more common to title them Hereditary Prince/Princess. I think Hereditary Prince Albert was given the title Marquis des Baux instead of Duke of Valentinois because his grandmother, ex-Hereditary Princess Charlotte, was still alive and held the title Duchess of Valentinois at the time of his birth.



While the article does not state what its source is, it says the title "Prince Royal of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarves" was not created until 1815, which is consistent with Brazil's elevation from a colony to a kingdom the same year, and the fact that the future Emperor Pedro I of Brazil was referred to as Prince Royal when he became heir to the Portuguese and Brazilian thrones, whereas his father was referred to as Prince of Brazil until he became Prince Regent (when Brazil was still a colony).

Here is Spain's announcement of the court mourning for José, Prince of Brazil (Pedro's uncle) in 1788.

https://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1...0714-00714.pdf

"Con motivo de la muerte del Príncipe del Brasil tomará esta Corte luto por 15 dias contados desde 24 del corriente."



My understanding is that "Príncipe do Brasil" was the title of the heir to the Crown. ( “ o herdeiro da Coroa” ) between 1645 and 1815, while Brazil was still a colony. Between 1815 and 1822, the heir became "o Príncipe Real do Reino Unido do Brasil, Portugal e Algarves" and, after 1822, when Brazil became independent, he became only "o Príncipe Real de Portugal". The heir to the Crown also held, from birth, the title of "Duque de Bragança".



Maybe the Portuguese members could verify that information.
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  #35  
Old 06-11-2018, 11:56 AM
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In Spain a surname consists of first the paternal and second the maternal surname but I believe parents can choose to change the normal order. .

Yes the order of the names can be changed. That was done for example by the current Duke of Alba nad some of his siblings but not all. He is now Fitzjames Stuart y Martinez de Irujo instead of Martinez de Irujo y Fitzjames Stuart.
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  #36  
Old 06-11-2018, 01:06 PM
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In Monaco


In France, the heir, was Dauphin of France, more precisely the title is Dauphin of Viennois

I find it interesting that the word Dauphin derives from the nickname of an early Count of Albon who was named Delfinus ("dolfin") and used a dolfin in his Coat of Arms. His heirs stuck to it and as their county, Albon, in the 11th century was formed as part of the lands of the bishop of Vienne, it became known as the "Dauphiné" and the Count of Albon as "the Dauphin de Viennoise". When the last Count of Albon Humbert II. died in 1349, he wanted to leave his lands and title to the French king. But the problem was that the Dauphin de Viennoise was a vasal to the Roman Emperor, so the French king did not want it for himself but took title and lands for his heir.


Till 145, it was lands that belonged to the heir of the French king and was actually reigned by him. But when Dauphin Louis fought with his father Charles VII. once to often on using the Dauphiné as his military base the king's troops annected the Dauphiné and put the county under French rule. From then on the title Dauphin de Viennoise (and later: de France) was just the title the heir to the throne was known by. BTw. the Roman Emperor did not react to the loss of this vasalship.
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  #37  
Old 11-17-2019, 06:49 PM
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The heir to the Prince of Thurn und Taxis is referred to as Hereditary Prince of Thurn und Taxis.
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  #38  
Old 11-18-2019, 03:43 PM
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I find it interesting that the word Dauphin derives from the nickname of an early Count of Albon who was named Delfinus ("dolfin") and used a dolfin in his Coat of Arms. His heirs stuck to it and as their county, Albon, in the 11th century was formed as part of the lands of the bishop of Vienne, it became known as the "Dauphiné" and the Count of Albon as "the Dauphin de Viennoise". When the last Count of Albon Humbert II. died in 1349, he wanted to leave his lands and title to the French king. But the problem was that the Dauphin de Viennoise was a vasal to the Roman Emperor, so the French king did not want it for himself but took title and lands for his heir.
Sadly the title of Dauphin de France was abolished during the Revolution on 1st of October 1791 and was restyled Prince Royale de France.
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  #39  
Old 11-18-2019, 05:32 PM
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I believe it had a short re-introduction when the Duke of Angoulême was named Dauphin de Viennois from 1824 to 1830.

The prince royal was used from 1830 to 1842 for the heir of the then reigning house of Orléans, Prince Ferdinand, Duke of Orleans. I am not sure if after his death the title 'Prince Royal' was used by his eldest son the Comte de Paris.

I do not think that at the moment the title is used for the Comte de Clermont or for Don Luis de Borbon y Vargas, though I did see it used once in a while for the late Prince François d'Orléans -elder brother of the present count of Paris. IIRC it was mentioned in communications of either the then duke de Vendôme or his father about their quarrel in setting up a regency if Prince François would outlive his father.
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  #40  
Old 11-18-2019, 05:42 PM
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I believe it had a short re-introduction when the Duke of Angoulême was named Dauphin de Viennois from 1824 to 1830.
Yes the title was indeed briefly restored by during the Restoration but sadly Louis Antoine, Duke of Angoulême was the last title Dauphin of France.
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