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  #61  
Old 07-22-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Daniel might not have cared that much. Children getting their mother's surname is not unusual and since 2018 surnames aren't received by default anymore, but something the parents have to chose and report to the authorities in the same way that they do a first name.
If Amalia marries a man with an old name - patrician, noble or royal - is not to farfetched for him to want to pass it and any eventual titles to his children.
It's not far-fetched indeed but the surname of any children is determined by parliament as it is part of the law passed to approve the marriage. So, while he can surely state his preferences and those might be taken into account (especially if the monarch of that time endorses his wish), it will not be up to him to decide.

That's part of marrying a (future) queen; your wife will take precedence in most things, including passing on titles and surname. If your not willing to sacrifice these things, you shouldn't marry a future queen. Clearly, Daniel feels comfortable in his supporting role and that's what any future queen would want. And Amalia will know the importance of her future husband being truly ok with that role based on the history of prince consorts in previous generations.
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  #62  
Old 07-22-2019, 08:21 PM
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For so far all male consorts have had their name and/or title included for their children: Albert von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Félix de Bourbon de Parme, Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, Philip Mountbatten, Claus von Amsberg, Henri de Laborde de Monpezat. The only two exceptions were Pierre de Polignac (he took the surname Grimaldi) and Daniel Westling. When Amalia marries, for an example, a Graf von Waldburg-Zeil und Hohenems, it would surprise me not to see his title, surname and arms returning in his children. It had always been done so. After all these are as much his children as hers
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  #63  
Old 07-22-2019, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The only two exceptions were Pierre de Polignac (he took the surname Grimaldi) and Daniel Westling.
Daniel actually added the name Bernadotte to Westling and is now known as Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte in the Civil registry
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  #64  
Old 07-22-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Daniel actually added the name Bernadotte to Westling and is now known as Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte in the Civil registry

But he didn't pass the name Westling to his descendants, which was Duc's point I guess.


By contrast, the descendants in male line of Prince Philip or Prince Claus who are not HRHs use the names respectively Mountbatten-Windsor and van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.
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  #65  
Old 07-23-2019, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
But he didn't pass the name Westling to his descendants, which was Duc's point I guess.

By contrast, the descendants in male line of Prince Philip or Prince Claus who are not HRHs use the names respectively Mountbatten-Windsor and van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.
Yes, that was the point ideed.

The children of Prince Claus bear his predicate and surname. His arms is used as a heartshield in those of his children: picture

The children of Prince Henrik bear his title and surname. His arms is used as a heartshield in those of his children: picture

I can not imagine that an eventual title or arms of a future spouse to Princess Elisabeth, Princess Amalia, etc. would be left aside in the titulature of their children. That would be an end to tradition. After all, the children are as much his as hers.
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  #66  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:26 AM
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I got the point but just wanted to point out that the situation wasn´t exactly the same in the cases of Pierre Polignac and Daniel Westling. Neither could it have been the same since atleast the children of the Swedish monarch and the children of the heir doesn´t carry any surnames.
Although only speculation I wonder how they would have solved it if Daniel had a Swedish noble title that he quite understandably wanted to pass on to his children since these titles are connected to the surname and the King seems adamant that Estelle and Oscar are part of the Bernadotte Dynasty. You´re not the Count of Oxenstierna, but Count Oxenstierna so to add that to the titles would in effect give them a surname.
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  #67  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I got the point but just wanted to point out that the situation wasn´t exactly the same in the cases of Pierre Polignac and Daniel Westling. Neither could it have been the same since atleast the children of the Swedish monarch and the children of the heir doesn´t carry any surnames.
Although only speculation I wonder how they would have solved it if Daniel had a Swedish noble title that he quite understandably wanted to pass on to his children since these titles are connected to the surname and the King seems adamant that Estelle and Oscar are part of the Bernadotte Dynasty. You´re not the Count of Oxenstierna, but Count Oxenstierna so to add that to the titles would in effect give them a surname.
This might be brought up once the Crown Princess ascends the throne or else even through 'titles of nobility' like Prince Henrik's (Count of Monpezat) that was added by Queen Margrethe in 2008 to their sons and their legitimate patrilineal descendants of both sexes, the Westling name will only be forgotten.
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  #68  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
This might be brought up once the Crown Princess ascends the throne or else even through 'titles of nobility' like Prince Henrik's (Count of Monpezat) that was added by Queen Margrethe in 2008 to their sons and their legitimate patrilineal descendants of both sexes, the Westling name will only be forgotten.
I realised that I might be wrong. There are members of the Swedish nobility that for different reasons go by other surnames than that of their family. Though I'm not sure how that would work in titled families. Could you be f ex Count Andersson when the name of your family really is Count Ekeblad. Anyway having a Prince XX, Duke of XX, Count Ekeblad who's still a Bernadotte would seem possible.
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  #69  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I realised that I might be wrong. There are members of the Swedish nobility that for different reasons go by other surnames than that of their family. Though I'm not sure how that would work in titled families. Could you be f ex Count Andersson when the name of your family really is Count Ekeblad. Anyway having a Prince XX, Duke of XX, Count Ekeblad who's still a Bernadotte would seem possible.

I am really confused about how those titles work in Sweden and, in all those years, I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer.

From what I understand, nobility is no longer regulated by law in Sweden and new nobility cannot be conferred. Moreover, it appears that titles are neither part of someone's legal name nor appear in any official document like passports or birth certificates. On the other hand, however, the House of Nobility still exists as a private civic association and the families represented therein are still privately referred to by their titles, which, I guess, is not forbidden by law.


If the Crown Princess or any other Princess of Sweden for that matter married a member of the Swedish nobility whose title passed automatically by birth to all male-line descendants, I suppose that her children could use their father's family title in the same way that some members of the Royal Family who are not members of the Royal House (e.g. Princess Désirée) are referred to by the Royal Court by their husbands' titles . In fact, the Court has a systematic habit, in guest lists for example, of using titles of nobility..
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  #70  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:22 AM
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Heirs, Spares and marriages

I know the names I'm going to mention are children and the days of Dynastic/arranged marriages are long gone but it's just hypothetical

So, as we know that two heirs to the thrones cannot marry as they're supposed to be king/Queen of their respective countries eg.

Prince George/Princess Estelle
Prince Christan/Princess Leonor
Prince Constantine/Princess Ingrid

But what about the second child(ren) aka the Spare. Who are also in line of succession but behind their parents (if grandparents are the Monarchs), older siblings and future children of their siblings. Can two Spares get married like
Princess Charlotte/Prince Oscar
Princess Sofia/Prince Achileas-Andreas
Prince Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway/Princess Isabella ?

Again, it's just a hypothetical question
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  #71  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by QueenEmpath View Post
I know the names I'm going to mention are children and the days of Dynastic/arranged marriages are long gone but it's just hypothetical

So, as we know that two heirs to the thrones cannot marry as they're supposed to be king/Queen of their respective countries eg.

Prince George/Princess Estelle
Prince Christan/Princess Leonor
Prince Constantine/Princess Ingrid

But what about the second child(ren) aka the Spare. Who are also in line of succession but behind their parents (if grandparents are the Monarchs), older siblings and future children of their siblings. Can two Spares get married like
Princess Charlotte/Prince Oscar
Princess Sofia/Prince Achileas-Andreas
Prince Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway/Princess Isabella ?

Again, it's just a hypothetical question
I can't see any reason why they could not. Although they are the spares, the chances of two spares, who married each other, coming to the throne of their individual countries would be quite remote.

The only issue I can see is that, as we all know, many of the Royal Families are related, albeit more distantly nowadays. Nevertheless, concerns about inherited genetic problems would no doubt be looked into. I don't think anyone wants a return to the sad days of dynastic marriages producing children with serious health problems because genetics was not understood or poorly understood.
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  #72  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
And even before that , Lord Mountbatten reportedly tried to match King Carl Gustaf with Princess Anne, but apparently Carl Gustaf was not interested.

Those British/Swedish matches are recurrent because members of the two royal houses really match very well in terms of age and religion. Madeleine for example would have been perfect for William.

I like the idea of Gabriel and Leonor, or Elisabeth and a Lichtenstein Prince. After the fall of the monarchy in France, Italy, Portugal , Bavaria and Austria, there are few reigning Catholic royal families and An interdynastic marriage between those who are left would be great. I guess the last one involving ruling families was between GD Jean and Princess Josephine Charlotte and that was a long time ago.

EDIT: It has just occurred to me that , if Elisabeth of Belgium married one of the younger sons of Prince Alois, for example Nikolaus who is about her age I think, then her children, including the possible future King or Queen of the Belgians , would also be in the Jacobite line of succession to the British throne, wouldn’t they ? That would be an interesting development !
This is so true. There's just a few remaining Catholic royal families and yes, Leonor and Gabriel would be a great match.

Actually the last interdynastic marriage to date was with Prince Nikolaus of Liechtenstein and Princess Margaretha of Luxembourg (m. 1982)

As with Elisabeth marrying Nikolaus, it's a beautiful combination too. The Jacobite line of succession will surely be a great point of topic if that's the case.

Any Princesses for Pablo Nicolás Urdangarin? He is growing up so fast and is very handsome too.
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  #73  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The children of Prince Henrik bear his title and surname. His arms is used as a heartshield in those of his children: picture
Yes, but only in the arms of Prince Joachim. The heartshield in Crown Prince Frederik's arms uses the Oldenburg arms only.
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  #74  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post

As with Elisabeth marrying Nikolaus, it's a beautiful combination too. The Jacobite line of succession will surely be a great point of topic if that's the case.
Maybe on this board and maybe they might be interested in Belgium and Lichtenstein, butI'm thinking in the UK (or at least England, Wales and N. Ireland) people would a) have to be reminded what the Jacobite claim is and b) be reminded that Belgium has a Royal Family. Not much news gets reported on other royal families at all.
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  #75  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post

Any Princesses for Pablo Nicolás Urdangarin? He is growing up so fast and is very handsome too.
Maybe Elisabeth von Lattorf, daughter of Princess Tatiana of Liechtenstein?

Also Crown Prince Moulay Hasan of Morocco and Princess Salma bint Abdullah of Jordan would be a great match.
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