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  #121  
Old 09-11-2018, 03:50 PM
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I get the picture. I mainly wondered why you think the decision would turn out differently nowadays (or in the future) as over the last 20 years we've seen that almost anyone will be approved of. Within the SRF I am still surprised thst there was apparently so much oppossition against Daniel and so little against Sofia. Probably she profitted from the king's earlier decision on Daniel?!
That also surprises me, because AFAIK he had a fine background, no problems there. And he has turned out to be fine support for Victoria.
Perhaps he wasn't glamorous enough? Not academic enough? Too ordinary? Too Swedish?

As for Sofia. Okay, some of you will see red now, so be it.
Just as women can be horrible and totally unforgiving towards women/princesses who are otherwise suitable. In the same way women in particular can rally around a woman who is being criticized. The criticism being seen as an attack on the female gender, rather than the individual person and regardless of the validity of that criticism. There is IMO a lot of that these days...
And Sweden is a feminist country, where criticism of a woman cannot and must not be tolerated, - unless it's by the feminists themselves.

Now shoot me.
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  #122  
Old 09-11-2018, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I'm sure that Sofia benefited from the trailblazing Daniel, but they were generally treated the same. Both had to wait a few years to get scrubbed up and improve their public image. What Sofia had working for her was that Carl Philip isn't the heir while, according to Victoria, the doubts her parents had about Daniel was if he would be able to cope with being the husband of the future Head of State.

I think Sofia was much more generously treated then Daniel. She was allowed to attened official Events like the christening of Estelle and the Wedding of Madeleine without beeing engaged. This was certainly not the case for Daniel.
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  #123  
Old 09-11-2018, 04:21 PM
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I completely agree with you.

But not according to Sofia herself...she says she was "bullied" and treated MOST unfairly.
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  #124  
Old 09-11-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Elisabeth would have lost her title and become a Rosenborg had she married her lifetime partner. She said as much in an interview posted somewhere in the Elisabeth thread.
And since they were determined not to have any children and it was back in 70's and 80's it really didn't matter, so they just lived together.
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According to Elisabeth herself she would've lost her title upon marriage so since the couple had no intentions of having children they decided not to marry.
Indeed (though she said that she would have become a Hermansen, rather than a Rosenborg), but my understanding of what Princess Elisabeth meant is that she would have lost her title because her marriage would not have received the Queen's approval in Council of State, just as her brothers lost their titles because their marriages were not given the King's approval in Council of State.

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It's worth noting that, according to Prince Christian himself, his uncle had nothing personal against neither him marrying a commoner nor Anne-Dorthe herself, but felt that he had to obey the law.
Perhaps he meant the traditions? The Danish Constitution did not impose a requirement to marry equally, only to obtain the approval of the King.

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The two Scandinavian monarchs have generally accepted their predecessors decisions as applicable on the former generations while making their own decisions for their children's generation during their reign. Therefore QMII would've found her father's decision regarding Ingolf and Christian applicable on Elisabeth as well while although CXVIG did allow Bertil to retain his title he did not approve the application of his uncles and cousin to regain their titles.
That makes sense in regard to Queen Margrethe II's decisions, but King Carl XVI Gustaf was willing to treat Bertil's marriage differently from the marriages of Bertil's brothers (and his cousin Lennart).

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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I think Sopfia was much more generously treated then Daniel. She weas allowed to attened official Events like the christening of Estelle and the Wedding of Madeleine without beeing engaged. This was certainly not the case for Daniel.
Sofia Hellqvist was also treated much more generously by the press in comparison to Daniel Westling.
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  #125  
Old 09-11-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Indeed (though she said that she would have become a Hermansen, rather than a Rosenborg), but my understanding of what Princess Elisabeth meant is that she would have lost her title because her marriage would not have received the Queen's approval in Council of State, just as her brothers lost their titles because their marriages were not given the King's approval in Council of State.
She would no doubt have been offered the title of countess of Rosenborg, whether she would have chosen Mrs. Elisabeth Hermansen, Countess of Rosenborg or Countess Elisabeth of Rosenborg or simply Mrs. Elisabeth Hermansen is open to speculation.

And I think it was at some point made clear to her that if she married she would lose her title. Which IMO was to be expected. There is a limit to how many princes and princesses we can have running around. - It's also the big question in regards to Joachim's children, if or when they marry.
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  #126  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I think Sofia was much more generously treated then Daniel. She was allowed to attened official Events like the christening of Estelle and the Wedding of Madeleine without beeing engaged. This was certainly not the case for Daniel.
Daniel, Emma and Jonas attended the king's 60th birthday party. I don't really know what other family events they should have attended before getting engaged as there weren't that many.
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  #127  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
She would no doubt have been offered the title of countess of Rosenborg, whether she would have chosen Mrs. Elisabeth Hermansen, Countess of Rosenborg or Countess Elisabeth of Rosenborg or simply Mrs. Elisabeth Hermansen is open to speculation.
Are you certain that she would have been offered a Countess title if and when she lost her title of Princess of Denmark? BB was told by the Princess in 2015 that she would have become Mrs. Hermansen. (Thank you for your translation. )
Q: You (informal you) were very fond of Claus. Why didn't you marry?
E: "Then I'd become Mrs. Hermansen and that we both thought was a bit silly considering that we were not to have any children. That was a decision we both agreed on".
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
And I think it was at some point made clear to her that if she married she would lose her title. Which IMO was to be expected. There is a limit to how many princes and princesses we can have running around. - It's also the big question in regards to Joachim's children, if or when they marry.
I agree. What I meant is that the Queen would presumably have treated Princess Elisabeth and her hypothetical husband much as her brothers and their wives were treated, that is to say, the marriage would not have been given approval in Council of State (as opposed to giving approval and yet stripping her of her title, for which I don't think there is any precedent).
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  #128  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

But not according to Sofia herself...she says she was "bullied" and treated MOST unfairly.
She was, by the press and on social media. But she has always said that the king and queen treated her with warmth from early on, so no bullying there.
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  #129  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Are you certain that she would have been offered a Countess title if and when she lost her title of Princess of Denmark? BB was told by the Princess in 2015 that she would have become Mrs. Hermansen. (Thank you for your translation. )
Q: You (informal you) were very fond of Claus. Why didn't you marry?
E: "Then I'd become Mrs. Hermansen and that we both thought was a bit silly considering that we were not to have any children. That was a decision we both agreed on".


I agree. What I meant is that the Queen would presumably have treated Princess Elisabeth and her hypothetical husband much as her brothers and their wives were treated, that is to say, the marriage would not have been given approval in Council of State (as opposed to giving approval and yet stripping her of her title, for which I don't think there is any precedent).
You are welcome.
I am actually.
I think the Mrs. Hemansen bit was said with a glimmer in her eye.

It's akin to Sofia saying that upon her marriage to Carl-Phillip she would become Mrs. Bernadotte.
She sort of did, but she is also Princess Sofia.
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  #130  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
cutting off the heads of fifteen budgies with a pair of scissors, putting the heads on lollypop sticks and planting them in the ground in front of the local kindergarten when she was 22.

Wha...What??? What was she thinking


I love Mary but...That's horrible
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  #131  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:52 PM
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Wha...What??? What was she thinking


I love Mary but...That's horrible
Don't worry.
It was only an outrageous example I made up to illustrate a point.
That's why I ended it with this:

I doubt Mary has ever cut off the heads of budgies - with scissors.
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  #132  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:53 PM
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I wonder if Princess Anne faced opposition to her marrying Tim Lawrence, who was when they met, a member of the Queen's staff who was writing romantic letters to her whilst she was still married.
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  #133  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:10 PM
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You are welcome.
I am actually.
I think the Mrs. Hemansen bit was said with a glimmer in her eye.

It's akin to Sofia saying that upon her marriage to Carl-Phillip she would become Mrs. Bernadotte.
She sort of did, but she is also Princess Sofia.
It would only be fair to offer Princess Elisabeth the same title conferred on her brothers, but I suspect Queen Margrethe II would have followed the precedent set by Mrs. Dagmar Castenskiold (who was born as Princess Dagmar of Denmark), for whom there were no further titles after she married an untitled nobleman. Queen Margrethe II created the Danish title of Count(ess) of Monpezat with a remainder restricted to descendants in male line, which suggests that she is willing to treat men differently from women regarding titles of nobility.

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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
She was, by the press and on social media. But she has always said that the king and queen treated her with warmth from early on, so no bullying there.
From the articles from prior to their marriages which I have read through, I must agree with those who conclude that Daniel Westling received noticeably less generous treatment by the press.
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  #134  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:23 PM
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OMII is/was pretty conservative, so we can only speculate.
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  #135  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:01 PM
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This is extremely interesting. It's difficult to imagine a reason why the word "King" would take on a different meaning in Article 36 in comparison to every other article in the Constitution, and I suspect the reality was that King Harald wished to avert any potential debate and the government thought there was no advantage to challenging the king's plan of action, given that the government probably would have approved the marriage in any case.
Well, as Jens Stoltenberg said in his autobiography:
''Kongen og jeg var skjønt enige om at kronprinsen kom til å gifte seg med den han var glad i, og hvis noen prøvde å nekte ham det, enten det var kongen eller regjeringen, så måtte vi regne med at landet ikke lenger hadde en kronprins.''
(''The King and I agreed that the Crown Prince was getting married to the one he loved, and if anyone tried to deny him that, whether it was the King or the government, then we had to assume that the country no longer had a Crown Prince.'')
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  #136  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:14 PM
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She was, by the press and on social media. But she has always said that the king and queen treated her with warmth from early on, so no bullying there.
There were some in the Swedish press that bent over backward to promote this young woman....one in particular was so rabidly pro Sofia I occasionally wondered if he was on the payroll.

As for social media...well yeah. What did she expect?

She still got fields of roses compared to poor Daniel.
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  #137  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
Well, as Jens Stoltenberg said in his autobiography:
''Kongen og jeg var skjønt enige om at kronprinsen kom til å gifte seg med den han var glad i, og hvis noen prøvde å nekte ham det, enten det var kongen eller regjeringen, så måtte vi regne med at landet ikke lenger hadde en kronprins.''
(''The King and I agreed that the Crown Prince was getting married to the one he loved, and if anyone tried to deny him that, whether it was the King or the government, then we had to assume that the country no longer had a Crown Prince.'')
I assume the king was extremely lenient given his own struggle to get his choice of bride approved. He knew how stubborn he was, so expected that his son would be the same.
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  #138  
Old 09-11-2018, 11:22 PM
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I wonder how many were relieved to lose their place in succession, and have more privacy and personal freedom? Or do they also lose much more than a title such as privilege, allowances, residence etc? I heard that Princess Margaret of GB
was not prepared to relinquish her title and lifestyle for Peter Townsend, although there were other considerations.
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  #139  
Old 09-11-2018, 11:30 PM
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I wonder how many were relieved to lose their place in succession, and have more privacy and personal freedom? Or do they also lose much more than a title such as privilege, allowances, residence etc? I heard that Princess Margaret of GB
was not prepared to relinquish her title and lifestyle for Peter Townsend, although there were other considerations.
In today's society, I think most of them would. Especially the younger generation. I think it's been a lot more obvious in the recent decades the sacrifice involved in being a royal. Margaret was from a different time. Monarchy was viewed differently in general back then, and the royals viewed their position and roles differently back then as well. Of course, with the BRF there was also the trauma of Edward VIII's abdication.
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  #140  
Old 09-12-2018, 12:28 AM
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In today's society, I think most of them would. Especially the younger generation. I think it's been a lot more obvious in the recent decades the sacrifice involved in being a royal. Margaret was from a different time. Monarchy was viewed differently in general back then, and the royals viewed their position and roles differently back then as well. Of course, with the BRF there was also the trauma of Edward VIII's abdication.
Precisely. I think that the other RF's have had less trouble with the idea of someone being dropped from the succession, because of a marriage. So a lot of Danish and other royals married commoners and were left out of the line, and it was considered OK.
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