Schackenborg Castle, Tønder

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by gerry

Thank you for this Muhler; I wonder however if the sale of Schackenborg is more a decision based on healthy realism than any sense of personal defeat. Running a farm is a full time job in itself; with Prince Joachim's many other commitments, perhaps the sale (was it not sold to a foundation?) and move to Copenhagen are the result of hard thinking about the road ahead that the Prince wishes to travel with his family.

That is certainly my opinion.
I believe Schackenborg would have had to be sold anyway, certainly when Joachim dies and especially as there would be very little to inherit for his four children, even if the manor had continued as a kind of family-foundation.

And yes, Schackenborg was sold to a foundation, - with the premesis that J&M go live there from time to time.

However, I do believe Joachim is feeling a deep sense of defeat. I certainly would in his place, even if selling the manor is the most sensible solution financially.
At least he is not selling an estate that has been in the family for generations - that would have been an even bigger defeat.

[gerry]

Originally Posted by Muhler

That is certainly my opinion.
I believe Schackenborg would have had to be sold anyway, certainly when Joachim dies and especially as there would be very little to inherit for his four children, even if the manor had continued as a kind of family-foundation.

And yes, Schackenborg was sold to a foundation, - with the premesis that J&M go live there from time to time.

However, I do believe Joachim is feeling a deep sense of defeat. I certainly would in his place, even if selling the manor is the most sensible solution financially.
At least he is not selling an estate that has been in the family for generations - that would have been an even bigger defeat.

I understand your point of view Muhler; one has dreams: marriage, home, children, interesting job....In Prince Joachim's case, two of these dreams have perhaps not turned out as he had planned; I am certain he will find success elsewhereHe seems a sensible and well-grounded type of person (except maybe for the automobile racing that I really cannot recommend for a family man!)

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by gerry

I understand your point of view Muhler; one has dreams: marriage, home, children, interesting job....In Prince Joachim's case, two of these dreams have perhaps not turned out as he had planned; I am certain he will find success elsewhereHe seems a sensible and well-grounded type of person (except maybe for the automobile racing that I really cannot recommend for a family man!)

Yeah, he'll be fine.

Yes, but his hobby keeps him off the streets (well, sort of) and prevents him from hanging out with the wrong crowd. So our Marie is wise in indulging him.
And afterwards she can admire him for being the victoriuos warrior. Seasoned wives know how to play their husbands... I know, got a master at that game in the house myself.

[rchainho]

he has lands? With wich money?

[gerry]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Yeah, he'll be fine.

Yes, but his hobby keeps him off the streets (well, sort of) and prevents him from hanging out with the wrong crowd. So our Marie is wise in indulging him.
And afterwards she can admire him for being the victoriuos warrior. Seasoned wives know how to play their husbands... I know, got a master at that game in the house myself.

Point very well taken indeed Muhler!However, in the ordinary scheme of things, now that Prince Joachim is no longer a farmer, is he not supposed to have a job of some sort or will he play the Royal representative role (something like the British 'Air Miles Andy' (admittedly not a nice tag but certainly very descriptive of the role played by the Duke of York!)

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by rchainho

he has lands? With wich money?

As a part of his inheritance from the Schack family.
Schackenborg Manor and the lands directly under the estate only constituted some 40 % of the land owned by Joachim.
It is expected he will sell that land as well, but there is no rush.

Originally Posted by gerry

Point very well taken indeed Muhler!However, in the ordinary scheme of things, now that Prince Joachim is no longer a farmer, is he not supposed to have a job of some sort or will he play the Royal representative role (something like the British 'Air Miles Andy' (admittedly not a nice tag but certainly very descriptive of the role played by the Duke of York!)

That remains to be seen and it will indeed be interesting to see what he will do in the future.

[Muhler]

An interesting article about the lands around Schackenborg that Joachim still owns: Prins Joachim bliver stenrig: Så mange millioner giver hans geniale plan - Royale | www.bt.dk

He still owns around 600 hectares and two properties.
Joachim has now begun to sell off that land, as indicated by the then Chief of Court, Ove Ullerup.

Joachim has sold 12 hectares out of the 600 for a price of 2.4 million DKK.

BT has estimated the value of his land and properties in today's market at some 97 million DKK.

- Combined with the income after the sale of Schackenborg, the value of his new house and what other investments he may have made, he is in my conservative estimation wealthier that the rest of the DRF combined.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Why did the Shack family specifically donate it do Prince Joachim?

[polyesco]

Originally Posted by Muhler

An interesting article about the lands around Schackenborg that Joachim still owns: Prins Joachim bliver stenrig: Så mange millioner giver hans geniale plan - Royale | www.bt.dk

He still owns around 600 hectares and two properties.
Joachim has now begun to sell off that land, as indicated by the then Chief of Court, Ove Ullerup.

Joachim has sold 12 hectares out of the 600 for a price of 2.4 million DKK.

BT has estimated the value of his land and properties in today's market at some 97 million DKK.

- Combined with the income after the sale of Schackenborg, the value of his new house and what other investments he may have made, he is in my conservative estimation wealthier that the rest of the DRF combined.

wealthier than all the DRF combined? nice for Joachim and this great deal.

another article on the selling of the lands, I think they interviewed some people that live close by
Prins Joachim geniale plan: Så stenrig kan han blive - Nationalt | www.b.dk

"Andreas Knudsen, Møgeltønder: "It's fine for me that Prince Joachim selling off its land. What does he need the ground to when he lives in Copenhagen? I must admit that I never noticed the prince and his family when they lived in Møgeltønder. They were still not home at the castle so often, so it makes me actually not that big that he sells out of the ground. How I actually believe many others in Møgeltønder have it. It is probably most tourists who think it is a shame that he does not live here anymore."

I like this quote
"Not just rich but filthy rich. Prince Joachim has a sale of 12 hectares of land kicked off a process of selling his land in southern Jutland, which can eventually enrich the prince with 97 million. kr."



this just adds more for me, that Joachim should pay Alexandra appendage and for Nikolai and Felix and not the government anymore

[Muhler]

Well, I don't see why Joachim should pay to Alexandra. She got her share of the worth of the estate when she divorced Joachim. Not only that but she is in the process of being divorced from her second husband. Why should the first husband keep paying?

After all if Joachim is supposed to pay Alexandra's full apanage for the rest of her life, he'll soon have no fortune to hand over to his children.

It is however an additional argument for stripping Alexandra of her apanage. Since Joachim and Alexandra combined should surely be able to ensure Nikolai and Felix grow up in a "suitable lifestyle befitting their status".
But still I don't think that will happen until Felix turn eighteen.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Why did the Shack family specifically donate it do Prince Joachim?

They didn't have a direct heir. And other members of the Schack family didn't want to take over the estate. And as Schackenborg was IIRC originally a fief, so it was decided Joachim would take over, against a fitting compensation.
That the estate was neglected came as an unpleasant surprise for the DRF and cost the family a good deal of money. And even that was far from enough. The public donation in connection with Joachim and Alexandra's wedding made a big difference.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I see. It would have been a fantastic residence for Princess Isabella, Prince Vincent or Princess Joséphine. Too bad that Shackenborg is now lost for the royal family.

[princess gertrude]

[QUOTE=Muhler;1843791] Well, I don't see why Joachim should pay to Alexandra. She got her share of the worth of the estate when she divorced Joachim. Not only that but she is in the process of being divorced from her second husband. Why should the first husband keep paying?

After all if Joachim is supposed to pay Alexandra's full apanage for the rest of her life, he'll soon have no fortune to hand over to his children.

It is however an additional argument for stripping Alexandra of her apanage. Since Joachim and Alexandra combined should surely be able to ensure Nikolai and Felix grow up in a "suitable lifestyle befitting their status".
But still I don't think that will happen until Felix turn eighteen.



QUOTE] I completely agree. The minute she said "I do" to Martin the her apanage should have stopped. I can certainly understand child support for Nikolai and Felix, but I don't think she should be getting any money from Joachim. And quite right, if he keeps paying her, the kids will have no inheritance.

[polyesco]

yeah. I agree somewhat.
Definitely by the time Felix turns 18.
I just don't think the government should pay anymore for Joachim's first wife, when he is now a very wealthy man. It would earn him some "brownie" points with the public if Alexandra's appendage would stop.
right or wrong, but Alexandra receiving money from the state still reflects (badly) on Joachim, I think.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying he should pay off her debt or a new home or anything like that, but if he comes out and says, I dont know, that he would now be the one covering the appendage or something similar for his sons. Alexandra already got a good deal and that should be it.

on another note, will the sales of the lands be taxed? or all profits go to Joachim

[Jacknch]

I think it's a shame that the lands are being sold, but I guess if no one is prepared to farm them from the estate it would make sense to sell the parcels to someone who will.

[Muhler]

I don't know how much it reflects on Joachim that Alexandra keeps getting her apanage. There are of course some who think Joachim should pay, but it's my clear impression that it's mainly Alexandra herself who gets the heat, when the topic is raised from time to time.

It will increasingly be more and more difficult to justify Alexandra's apanage once Felix has turned eighteen. But until then I think she will left alone from the politicians, even though several have voiced the idea of having a look at her apanage.

It's fair that Joachim pay half the expenses for his children, should Alexandra lose her apanage. And I'm sure he does foot his part of the bill of Nikolai going to boarding school, but Alexandra receive more and apanage than Mary! Nikolai in Felix don't cost more than two million DKK a year, in schooling, food, clothing and so on. That would be around eight times the average income of an ordinary adult working Dane. I flatly refuse to believe the expenses for Nikolai and Felix amounts to that much.
So most of the money would go to Alexandra.
And Joachim is not even her ex-husband anymore, he's her ex-ex-husband. Why should he pay? Especially as she's hardly living in a two-room flat in a social housing complex.

[polyesco]

thanks Muhler.
I agree it shouldn't reflect on Joachim but indirectly at least for me when I think of Alexandra and her appendage, I think of Joachim. and with more articles on his large wealth and articles on his ex-wife's still receiving money ..well the two intertwine a bit

But yes. Definitely by the time Felix is 18.
and wow more than Mary?, maybe Mary needs to ask for a raise

will the sales of the lands be taxed?

[Terri Terri]

Ok! So Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik paid a a great deal of money for this estate originally, right? So I would imagine that Prince Joachim would have repaid his parents that money since he is now so wealthy? At least, I hope he has. He did put the amount that he and Alexandra received for a wedding gift back into the fund established for the sale of the estate. And what about the time of his divorce from Alexandra...didn't his parents also assist him financially? So I would imagine he could well afford to repay his parents now as well.
I know this is not the right topic...but isn't CP Frederik supposed to inherit the private estate in the south of France - Chateaux de Caix, since Joachim had Shakenborg? I would think that a wine estate in the south of France would worth more that a farm in southern Denmark if Caix was sold in the future.
As for Mary receiving less appanage than Alexandra....remember that Mary has the use of the palaces, cars, staff etc that is paid by Frederik's appanage. I think that Alexandra's appanage has to pay for all of those things out of her state funded income, which is also taxed.

[Muhler]

Mary had, has and is expected to have considerable more commitments than Alexandra
Alexandra got divorced at a time when the economy was booming and I think that reflects on the generous deal she got.

As for paying back his parents. Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't.
I mean it wasn't Joachim who decided he was to take over Schackenborg and it wasn't Joachim who should have kept a closer eye on the state of the estate. - "Here you are, son. This ruin is now yours. Have a nice life".
Perhaps Joachim got the help as a kind of advance on his inheritance? And now he doesn't need it.

It would indeed be nice to see Schackenborg being taken over by Nikolai, Felix, Henrik or Athena.
But the value of the estate would have to be divided into four parts upon the death of J&M. Even a family foundation would be doubtful. I'm far from sure Schackenborg would have been able to support four families. Two perhaps, but not four.

As for Cayx. Well, I think it was decided that while a prince consort can find time to look after a chateau in France, there is no way a very active king and queen can.
And Joachim may have wowed never ever to have anything to do with running a manor or a chateau again!

I think it's realistic to hope that eventually M&F's children will settle more or less permanently with their families at Marselisborg, Gråsten and Sorgenfri and perhaps Kancellihuset at Fredensborg as well. - But not all four. I believe at least one of them will marry and settle abroad somewhere. - Perhaps Australia?

As for Joachim paying taxes of his income of Schackenborg. I don't know.
And I don't know how many tax-deductions he would have been able to make if he did. (Quite a few I'd imagine!)

[tommy100]

I think maybe the Queen and Henrik hoped that Schackenborg would solve a few problems, provide a suitable royal home for that side of the family, provide and income to Joachim and his family and give him something to look after and work on. Unfortunately it all seems to have been too much for Joachim to cope with, especially financially. I agree that with 4 children for Joachim now it would be harder to give the estate away in a way that would provide something usable to the next generation - if Joachim only had 2 kids Nikolai could have moved into the main house and Felix could have been accommodated in another house on the Estate with maybe both of them running it. Now though a 4 way split would be too hard.

I think, IMO, its ridiculous that Alex gets an allowance from the State for her divorce, I think it would be a wonderful thing for Joachim to offer her a lump sum (from the sale of their former home) to invest in return for giving up her allowance, but I know this isn't going to happen. But to me its not Alex's fault that the DRF agreed a deal for the state to pay her after her divorce.

Out of interest does Joachim have other property/investments to rely on for income or, now he has sold Schackenborg, does he only have his allowance from the State to provide income?

[rebbevb]

Where do TRH'S live now ?