Sussex Residences

[Lilyflo]

Fantastic research presented on this website!
Royal Musings

This is outstanding. Thank you very much for finding & posting it.

 

[Somebody]

Well; I'd looked through the earlier parts of the thread so clearly missed that. As often I'm now a little embarrassed at making such an obvious mistake!
Thanks for posting.

No need to feel embarrassed. There are so many posts, so easy to miss the earlier post (by another member) with the press release.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

....And again the stupid story of moving to create distance between the families. I especially found the part about it being “rare for a member of the Royal family as important as Harry not to have a London base.” Umm, he’s only as important as Anne, Andrew and Edward-none of them have London bases.

 

[Tarlita]

The Royal musings article on the history of the Cottage is very thorough. Thank you Terri for the link.
This little cottage has quite a history of different people living there.

 

[Pranter]

I've seen some grumbling about the fact that the government (aka people) are having to pay for the renovations (aside from the furnishings) ...I've been surprised there haven't been articles about it yet. Some comments made that they should be having to contribute to all the costs.


LaRae

 

[Lady Marlboro]

I know I am probably being picky but there is something that is really starting to annoy me. The press keeps mixing up Frogmore House and Frogmore Cottage. Stories about the cottage keep talking about how romantic it will be because that is where they had the evening wedding reception and that is after talking about how it had been broken up for staff housing and must be put back to a single family home. They print pictures of Frogmore House and say that is the new house. I realize that a lot of this is the DM and they don't seem to believe in research or proof reading. They also seem to be the source for the foreign media as well.

Sorry to be a grump but it is cold and wet here today and the weather has put me in a bad mood.

 

[Kataryn]

I've seen some grumbling about the fact that the government (aka people) are having to pay for the renovations (aside from the furnishings) ...I've been surprised there haven't been articles about it yet. Some comments made that they should be having to contribute to all the costs.


LaRae

It's a Crown Estate property. One can expect the owner of a property to make it fit for leasing out. Harry and Meghan will pay for the interior decorations.



INstead of saying that the taxayer pays for it - which is blatantly untrue - they should say that the queen will use part of the souverain grant (which is not payed by the taxpayer!) for the renovations. Which means the roperty still belongs to the Crown Estate, the lease Harry will have to pay goes into the revenue of the Crown Estate but it's not the Crown Estate who pays for it but the queen uses her part of the Crown Estate revenue to pay for it. Let's face it: just like the Duchies of Cornwall for the heir and Lancaster for the monarch, the Crown Estate was always the belongings that historically payed for the costs of the Crown: meaning all costs for the building and upkeep of the Royal palaces, for security, for the court (including feeding etc. of the courtiers). This became at one point difficult to manage, so king George III. exchanged the whole of the Crown Estate's management and its revenue to parliament and got the infamous "civil list" for himself and his family from parliament. As the Crown Estate's revenues alone could easily pay for the civil list and in addition created a steady income for the state, you can say that George III. actually started paying taxes.
Today, the queen gets around a quarter of the revenues and the rest goes to paying for eg parliament's work, the upkeep of Westminster palace, payment for the people who work for the MPs etc. So instead of costing the taxpayer money, the queen pays through the Crown Estate for things that the taxpayer should normally pay for.



So, no, the government is not paying for Harry's new home, his grandmother is, even though the estate of the Crown should pay for it IMHO, because Harry is so close to the Crown that the Crown should see to it that he has a residence fit for his high-ranking position in the Royal family. As for the cost of security: Harry is not responsible for the fact that his place in society makes him endangered. It is society's duty to protect the citizens. And to pay for it.

 

[Lady Reem]

...And again the stupid story of moving to create distance between the families. I especially found the part about it being “rare for a member of the Royal family as important as Harry not to have a London base.” Umm, he’s only as important as Anne, Andrew and Edward-none of them have London bases.

Andrew and Edward do in fact have “London bases”. They each have apartments in BP. Princess Anne has an apartment at St James’s Palace.

There’s also the fact all three that you mentioned, just like other senior working royals of the family, either have/live in mansions or palaces as official residence. That won’t be the case with Harry & his wife once they move to begin life with their baby in the home granted them by the queen as official residence, Frogmore Cottage.

So you are actually quite wrong

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Errr...that assertion is simply not true!

Andrew and Edward do in fact have “London bases”. They each have apartments in BP. Princess Anne has an apartment at St James’s Palace.

There’s also the fact all three that you mentioned, just like other senior working royals of the family, either have/live in mansions or palaces as official residence. That won’t be the case with Harry & his wife once they move to begin life with their baby in the home granted them by the queen as official residence, Frogmore Cottage.

So you are actually quite wrong

They have never said the Sussexes are giving up Nott Cott so if they keep that, they will still have a London space. That’s all the Queen’s 3 younger children have-small apartments for brief overnight or short stays—not London bases. The London apartments in BP and St James are not their “official residences.” Their official residences are Gatcombe, Royal Lodge and Bagshot.

 

[Lady Reem]

They have never said the Sussexes are giving up Nott Cott so if they keep that, they will still have a London space. That’s all the Queen’s 3 younger children have-small apartments for brief overnight or short stays—not London bases. The London apartments in BP and St James are not their “official residences.” Their official residences are Gatcombe, Royal Lodge and Bagshot.

You stated that Anne, Andrew and Edward had no London base, and you were categorically wrong.

I never mentioned h/m retaining NC either way, and it’s NOT spacious enough for a visiting growing family. In any case Frogmore Cottage has been announced as the couple’s official residence.

 

[Mirabel]

They have never said the Sussexes are giving up Nott Cott so if they keep that, they will still have a London space. That’s all the Queen’s 3 younger children have-small apartments for brief overnight or short stays—not London bases. The London apartments in BP and St James are not their “official residences.” Their official residences are Gatcombe, Royal Lodge and Bagshot.

Yes, but their children are older- at least old enough for boarding schools.
It won't be easy for the Sussexes to trek back and forth with a baby, and we've already mentioned that Nott Cott isn't large enough to accommodate the baby and nanny.

 

[JR76]

Yes, but their children are older- at least old enough for boarding schools.
It won't be easy for the Sussexes to trek back and forth with a baby, and we've already mentioned that Nott Cott isn't large enough to accommodate the baby and nanny.

Trek? It's a one hour drive at the most. Many people I know have a longer commute than that to get to work or school every morning.

 

[tommy100]

Windsor, well Frogmore, is so close to London I don't really see the need for anything much bigger than what they have, Andrew and Edward only have 2/3 bedrooms in their BP apartments.
At the end of the day their main home is 50mins from London, so very rarely will they need to stay the night. They will almost certainly have a nanny of some kind (even if its the grandmother kind) so if Harry and Meghan want to / need to stay over they can and the baby can stay at "home". Even if they all want to stay over and need more room they can always stay at Clarence House or Apartment 1A (if like me you to choose to believe they don't all hate each other).

BTW I read somewhere recently, it may have been Brian Hoey's "Not in Front of the Corgis" that Notts Cottage is 4 bedroom with 3 bathrooms, drawing room, dining room and staff quarters so maybe they have more room than we think.

Even if they do move I think it will be to one of the other apartments in KP, no Apartment 1.

 

[Lady Reem]

Yes, but their children are older- at least old enough for boarding schools.
It won't be easy for the Sussexes to trek back and forth with a baby, and we've already mentioned that Nott Cott isn't large enough to accommodate the baby and nanny.

Yep I agree with you.

Also if the logistics of traveling between Windsor and London for work related functions was that great I wonder why Edward and Andrew have apartments at BP. Afterall they’ve been allocated sprawling mansions in Windsor. But I’m sure tq knows what she’s doing when it comes to h/m. Also my experience journeying between central London and Windsor shows it’s way over an hrs travel time.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Yes, but their children are older- at least old enough for boarding schools.
It won't be easy for the Sussexes to trek back and forth with a baby, and we've already mentioned that Nott Cott isn't large enough to accommodate the baby and nanny.

I didn’t realize those six grandchildren were all born old enough for boarding school and never came/come to London.

The point is the Philiips, Yorks and Wessexes were once babies/toddlers and their parents managed in the rooms/apts they had in London.

 

[AdmirerUS]

You stated that Anne, Andrew and Edward had no London base, and you were categorically wrong.

I never mentioned h/m retaining NC either way, and it’s NOT spacious enough for a visiting growing family. In any case Frogmore Cottage has been announced as the couple’s official residence.

Nott Cott will make a great place to change clothes or crash overnight after late night events or before early morning ones. And I think they will keep it for a while. For that purpose. And as to not being spacious enough for a family visit - poppycock. We know the family regularly packs people into the smallest of rooms for Christmas. They are used to making do in these old properties. It is we who think there must be endless grandeur for Harry from sunrise to sunset. I think we forget his combat time. I can quite imagine him telling the kids how rough he had it when they are crammed in somewhere for a holiday, trip to Africa, etc.

This family does not rush housing reassignments. Given the aging of all members of the family, not to mention refurbishment of BP, there will be shifting about in the coming years. Given all the marrying and children to follow there will also be shifting in coming years. And it will be years before all the dust settles.

And I just realized how off topic this is. Sorry, all.

 

[Somebody]

Exactly, so far it seems that the queen's younger children and the prince of Wales's younger child are treated equally. A large home base in the country (Anne is the only one who is not living in/near Windsor) and a small place in London which most likely is mainly used by the adults when having a late evening event to stay for the night before returning home the next day - and probably to change clothes or to spend some down time between events in London.

 

[Lady Reem]

It is we who think there must be endless grandeur for Harry from sunrise to sunset.

Nothing to do with wanting the couple to live grand lives. It’s just the contrast in living arrangements in comparison to the others is so striking. I’m sure the couple know what’s what and couldn’t care less either way. I’m done here.

 

[Curryong]

What gave me pause for thought about the announcement of Harry and Meghan's move to Frogmore Cottage were a few things Richard Palmer said on his Twitter Page at the time. Apart from expected grumbles about the cost of converting the property Richard was perplexed and annoyed that he couldn't get a straight answer from officials at KP as to how long Harry and Meghan were going to live there.

Richard has apparently long been told that CH will be Harry's abode in the fullness of time (something I don't believe will happen, incidentally.) However, when he questioned people at KP about the Sussex tenure at Frogmore Cottage he kept being told they were there 'for the foreseeable future', a response that they stuck to.

Now, with the news that the Gloucesters old apartment at 1a is to be thoroughly renovated, I'm wondering who the next tenants are going to be. Is this apartment earmarked for H+M in the future, maybe when their children are of school age?

And that, because of bad optics about the Cottage and apartment being renovated at practically the same time at great expense, (with the apartment due to take two years to be finished,) this little nugget is being kept from the public?

Before I get shot down in flames about this, with observations about H+M 's public profile fading in the future when George etc are adults, other royals only getting a bolthole in London, and the difficulties of keeping expensive households going in future years, I just want to say that it's likely to be more than twenty years before George starts fulltime public duties, that Harry is the POWs only other child, and that he will undoubtedly receive a great deal of money from Charles and the Queen in the future.

It's just that Palmer does have contacts within KP and it was clear that he scented some kind of mystery, some kind of double talk in the responses he got to his questions about their future home. So I do wonder whether there is something in it.

 

[Pranter]

We don't even know if it's true about the Gloucesters moving....


LaRae

 

[Osipi]

Today, the queen gets around a quarter of the revenues and the rest goes to paying for eg parliament's work, the upkeep of Westminster palace, payment for the people who work for the MPs etc. So instead of costing the taxpayer money, the queen pays through the Crown Estate for things that the taxpayer should normally pay for.

Snuffling around, I found someone asking a question about repairs and maintenance to Frogmore House and as Frogmore Cottage is on the property, I would imagine that what Sajid Javid, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (back in 2013) may still apply. He states:

"The refurbishment of Frogmore House and the Mausoleum of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert is the responsibility of the Royal Household.

HM Treasury pays Sovereign Grant to the Royal Household, out of which maintenance costs are met, in line with the Royal Household's priorities. Before the Sovereign Grant was introduced in 2012, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport provided the Royal Household with an annual grant for property maintenance. It was the responsibility of the Royal Household to decide how these funds were allocated.

Details of the overall spending allocated to maintenance of Royal properties are available in the Royal Finance Reports on the Monarchy website. The most recent Sovereign Grant Report records that £300,000 was spent on the refurbishment of the Mausoleum at Frogmore in 2012-13."

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2013-09-09a.167544.h

If one is interested, each year the expenses of the Sovereign Grant and the itemization of where the money goes is made public. I believe they're posted yearly in this thread. http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/royal-wealth-and-finances-9826.html

As I see it, its not about repairing and renovating and restoring a royal property for a certain royal but its also preserving the property for future generations to come. Hopefully they will still be around to be leased to George's grandchildren. Its totally British is that it is conserving and embracing the very long history it holds. That's why some properties have restrictions on what can and what cannot be done.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Richard has apparently long been told that CH will be Harry's abode in the fullness of time (something I don't believe will happen, incidentally.) However, when he questioned people at KP about the Sussex tenure at Frogmore Cottage he kept being told they were there 'for the foreseeable future', a response that they stuck to.

Now, with the news that the Gloucesters old apartment at 1a is to be thoroughly renovated, I'm wondering who the next tenants are going to be. Is this apartment earmarked for H+M in the future, maybe when their children are of school age?

So is this something new-re: Apt 1 or just the same old story? Because they have already been renovating 1 for awhile-new windows, new roof. But AFAIK the Gloucesters are still living there. There may need to be some plumbing or electrical work that needs updating as well, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily moving out.

The forseeable future could mean as long as Harry's grandmother is still alive, but that would be crass to say-until the Queen dies and some folks shuffle residences.

 

[Osipi]

Has anyone even thought that the work to the properties may be simply because they need them? Its not preparing for a game of musical residences but rather ensuring that the properties that do exist remain in good shape for generations to come.

Isn't Apartment 1A the residence of the Cambridges though? I thought that was all taken care of before the Cambridges moved in. The Sovereign Grant paid for the repairs necessary for the structure of the building itself but it was William and Kate (with Charles' help) that paid for the interior work making it a family home.

 

[tommy100]

Exactly!!!^^^
I think Apartment 1, the Gloucester's residence, is being renovated simply because it needs to be. The property has been in constant use for decades so the only way to do major work is to move the Gloucester's out and re-home them (some reported they had moved to a smaller property in KP).Maybe the work on the Cambridge's apartment 1 next door highlighted some work needed to this adjoining apartment. Sadly I think this has all happened by chance at the same time as H&M needing a home and the media have put 1+1 together and got 63. There's been nothing official said about apartment 1 for H&M, the media only think that because Princess Michael hinted at it and work has been done on the roof.
More likely IMO, H&M stay at Notts Cottage and Frogmore before possibly moving to CH or KP when an apartment becomes free in time

 

[AdmirerUS]

Has anyone even thought that the work to the properties may be simply because they need them? Its not preparing for a game of musical residences but rather ensuring that the properties that do exist remain in good shape for generations to come.

Isn't Apartment 1A the residence of the Cambridges though? I thought that was all taken care of before the Cambridges moved in. The Sovereign Grant paid for the repairs necessary for the structure of the building itself but it was William and Kate (with Charles' help) that paid for the interior work making it a family home.

I've always believed the wiring was dangerous and the plumbing a horror. We know the heating/cooling is questionable. Throw in aging lead paint and asbestos . and they are not places to raise children. No doubt there are security features that should be added. All these old piles need to be gutted and brought up to code. They are not gutting BP - but engineering new chases for all the utilities. Which is closing it down bits at a time.

 

[Osipi]

The cold, hard facts of the state of the palaces makes me realize just how off the moaners that are whining about "taxpayer money" going into these palaces. In their minds, they hear the words "palace" and the next thought is "posh and luxurious with wonderful amenities".

Frogmore Cottage was built, as far as I can see, in the early 1800s and who knows when the last overhaul to the place was to bring it up to code. Kensington Palace was the genius of Christopher Wren (hence why there's probably a Wren Cottage on the grounds) and he lived in the 17th century. That's *history* standing there and has been standing there for a very long time. They're national treasures. The British royal family just happens to live in them and take care of them for posterity.

With Harry and Meghan moving into Frogmore Cottage, its not only creating a family home for them but its also preserving the building and the grounds around it for future generations to see. I think the money is very well spent.

BTW: My home was built in the mid 1970s and now years later, its moaning and groaning for a face lift and mega repairs. Its just the way of things.

 

[Tarlita]

All these old palaces and mansions need lots of upkeep which is very expensive.
Throw in the 21st century of needing lots of power points and modern plumbing and the cost and time to do the job goes up and up.
Whatever happens for Harry and Meghan they will know that in the end they will have a lovely home / ie newly renovated to live in and a London residence for short stays.

BTW what happened to the Queen gifting H&M Adelaide Cottage at Windsor. Or was that a red herring?

 

[Pranter]

That was just media guessing.


LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

They wouldn't spend all the money in Frogmore if they planned to return to London in four years for school. There are plenty of great day schools in Windsor that the York and Wessex kids have gone to. And later schools like Eton.

Any work on apartment 1 is most likely Needed. The roof and windows are the only things confirmed but wiring and such would make sense.

The couple may need a London home but I doubt means a move down the line. One of the reasons to have a home at Windsor and not sandrigham is that it is close to London for engagements. Eventually an apartment like Andrew, Anne and Edward in London is likely to be sorted. Or continue at Nott.

 

[Tarlita]

Adelaide Cottage

That was just media guessing.


LaRae

Thanks for that Pranter. All these false media reportings make it hard to keep up with whats true and whats false.