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  #161  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:44 PM
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I got the info about Queen Mary from a tweet by Omid Scobie which has Queen Mary residing there from 1936. So from your post, it looks like the Queen Mary info was the gossip of the day in a different era! Thanks for all the fascinating contemporaneous published reports from the early 20th-century re occupants of Frogmore House!

This tweet from Omid Scobie references the fact that Frogmore cottage was previously the home of many royal connections, including Grand Duchess Xenia, Queen Mary, and also during the reign of Queen Victoria, her devoted friend and Indian servant, Abdul Karim:
https://twitter.com/scobie/status/1066274731060600833

As one commenter noted under Omid's tweet: "...living in this huge, peaceful slice of heaven is a blessing. Meghan will be just fine."

I'm sure this is entirely M&H's desire and dream come true that they envisioned during their courtship as they walked on the grounds of the Windsor estate.


Why do you describe Queen Victoria's friend and servant, Abdul Karim, as 'controversial'? Obviously, from the recent book and movie, it was not Karim who provoked controversy. The controversy came from the horrified snobbishness and prejudiced attitudes of QV's family and royal courtiers. Karim was very badly treated after Queen Victoria's death, and his relationship with HMQV was shrouded in the sands of time until recently.
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  #162  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post

I got the info about Queen Mary from a tweet by Omid Scobie which has Queen Mary residing there from 1936. So from your post, it looks like the Queen Mary info was the gossip of the day in a different era!

This tweet from Omid Scobie references the fact that Frogmore cottage was previously the home of many royal connections, including Grand Duchess Xenia, Queen Mary, and also during the reign of Queen Victoria, her devoted friend and Indian servant, Abdul Karim:
https://twitter.com/scobie/status/1066274731060600833
See the last two articles I posted. Queen Mary may have *stayed* at Frogmore Cottage on occasion but she never *lived* in it. There's no mention whatsoever of Frogmore Cottage in James Pope-Hennessy's authorized biography of her although he mentions all her other residences and the time and care she took in decorating them, which is what made me suspicious of these claims in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post


Why do you describe Queen Victoria's friend and servant, Abdul Karim, as 'controversial'? Obviously, from the recent book and movie, it was not Karim who provoked controversy. The controversy came from the horrified snobbishness and prejudiced attitudes of QV's family and royal courtiers. Karim was very badly treated after Queen Victoria's death, and his relationship with HMQV was shrouded in the sands of time until recently.
Because Queen Victoria's courtiers didn't approve of him and refused to associate with him. So yes, he did provoke controversy even if it was for reasons we rightfully consider unacceptable today. Being controversial doesn't necessarily mean you are the one in the wrong.

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There's so much historic signficance starting with the fact that Meghan and Harry share a 15th century ancestor, to the fact that Frogmore House was built by King George III for his beloved Queen Sophia Charlotte (whose mother's ancestry traces back to Portuguese-African roots),
This is OT but...George III's grandmother Queen Caroline also descended from Queen Charlotte's 15th-century ancestor, Margarita de Castro e Souza, a Portuguese noblewoman who may have had a 13th century ancestor with African ancestry.

So did Empress Catherine the Great of Russia and Empress Maria Theresa of Austria. Today probably all the European royal families descend from Margarita, not just the BRF.
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  #163  
Old 11-24-2018, 08:53 PM
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...I also think the tension thing between the Cambridges and Sussexes is tabloid rumor, although I could see there being tension between some staff.

But both men now have their own lives and families so having independent living arrangements that suit them and their families isn't that odd.
Of course it's not odd. And yes, the tabloids do enjoy stirring up complete falsehoods. That's because of the fascination many in the public have about the lives of royals, especially British royals. And frankly, there's a lot we will never fully know about any of them. Myths and falsehoods are passed down through the ages. But some kernels of truth are known, mainly from what the royals personally reveal.

Indeed nothing is unusual about two close brothers remaining close even when the older brother marries. And then, once the younger brother marries and starts a family, it makes sense that they do not want to live on top of each other, which is not the scenario the media has been dreaming up for Diana's sons. The brothers will obviously still be working closely together and maintaining close relationships, but living much more separately than they did in their 20s and early 30s. It's like brothers being involved in a large family business, and then separating their staffs once they are both married and increasingly are taking on separate duties and pursuing separate lives raising their individual families. These mundane realities are just on a larger-than-life scale when it involves the Windsors.

As Lumutqueen mentions below, I too doubt there's any serious tension between Harry & William, but slight disagreements are normal and to be expected, as are tensions between royal staffers. Most likely H&M themselves have always known what they wanted their living arrangements to end up being. As usual, it's been the public, royal reporters, and the tabloid media speculating and creating all kinds of assumptions and scenarios that can't be proven.

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You know what, personally, I think there is something in this. Not sinister or hateful but Henry has been a third wheel with William and Catherine for a long time, and now he's married, the "foursome" has formed instead. Now that Meghan has settled in I do think it's time they become two twosomes. They are siblings, and I imagine they do have their ups and downs but they do both need to lead separate lives as couples. Getting away and not being under each others feet is a good thing in my eyes.
I completely agree.

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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Nothing was ever even officially confirmed about them renting in the Cotswolds, so I don't see why they would confirm anything one way or the other about a rental property now.
Sure it's not unusual for nothing to be mentioned about the rumored Cotswolds rental. I do think M&H have some kind of retreat in the Cotswolds, even if it's just a cottage on the Soho Farmhouse property. More than likely, however, there is truth to the speculation that H&M have been spending a lot of time in the Cotswolds in a rented property, particularly since we know they enjoy living in the English countryside.

For privacy sake, they surely do not want to shed any light at all on whereever they might be staying in the Cotswolds, so with that in mind, KP didn't say anything. However, that doesn't negate my wondering whether they might still use the Cotswolds property, and hoping for some official news, if only to scotch further speculation. In this thread, there's already been speculation that if H&M are renting a house in the Cotswolds, they may give it up once they move to Frogmore Cottage. It's just more that we don't know, and thus unsurprisingly, speculation will continue.
  #164  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
See the last two articles I posted. Queen Mary may have *stayed* at Frogmore Cottage on occasion but she never *lived* in it. There's no mention whatsoever of Frogmore Cottage in James Pope-Hennessy's authorized biography of her although he mentions all her other residences and the time and care she took in decorating them, which is what made me suspicious of these claims in the first place.
Yep it makes sense that Queen Mary might have spent time at Frogmore Cottage even if it was before she became Queen. One of the reports you posted does reference the fact that the cottage was used as a nursery for some of the royal children, and later as a refuge for King George V/ Queen Mary's epileptic son, John.

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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Because Queen Victoria's courtiers didn't approve of him and refused to associate with him. So yes, he did provoke controversy even if it was for reasons we rightfully consider unacceptable today. Being controversial doesn't necessarily mean you are the one in the wrong.
Sure, but the way he's being labeled as 'controversial' has negative connotations, and is still indicative of the pretentiousness and ignorant prejudices of that time in history, which still reverberate down to the present day, obviously. We can see it often in some of the coverage of the Duchess of Sussex.
  #165  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:26 PM
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https://www.nytimes.com/1937/07/07/a...e-will-be.html

July 7, 1937 news article talking about Queen Mary and Frogmore Cottage.



LaRae
  #166  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/1937/07/07/a...e-will-be.html

July 7, 1937 news article talking about Queen Mary and Frogmore Cottage.



LaRae
The New York Times article was wrong. A lot of inaccurate articles about the Royal Family were published then, just as they are now. See the last two articles I posted above (which were published in England), one of which specifically states the reports of Queen Mary moving to Frogmore Cottage were wrong. Frogmore Cottage was *considered* for Queen Mary but she decided it was not to her liking. And as I pointed out earlier, James Pope-Hennessy says nothing about Frogmore Cottage in his authorized biography of Queen Mary although he discusses her other residences. The British newspaper database Findmypast (which I used to find the articles about Frogmore Cottage I posted) does not contain one single article about Queen Mary moving into Frogmore Cottage, although the royal family's activities were covered in detail. One article, which I didn't post, stated Frogmore Cottage was under consideration for Princess Elizabeth in 1947, which would hardly have happened if her imperious grandmother were already living there.

Queen Mary never lived in Frogmore Cottage.
  #167  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
This is OT but...George III's grandmother Queen Caroline also descended from Queen Charlotte's 15th-century ancestor, Margarita de Castro e Souza, a Portuguese noblewoman who may have had a 13th century ancestor with African ancestry.

So did Empress Catherine the Great of Russia and Empress Maria Theresa of Austria. Today probably all the European royal families descend from Margarita, not just the BRF.
Thanks for pointing out these additional connections. Indeed, part of Meghan's appeal to the general populace is in part due to her interesting heritage, not unlike Queen Sophia Charlotte's interesting heritage. In the 1700s, current attitudes about skin color and ethnic groups were not as negatively developed and ingrained. The prejudices began to escalate in the late 1700s via the writings of prominent individuals. Check out the book, Stamped From the Beginning, by Ibram X. Kendi.

Your stating that all of the European royal families descend in some way from Margarita is unsurprising. This historic reality is one reason why I referenced the unstated significance of Frogmore House and Windsor to Harry & Meghan (beyond it's idyllic country setting). Even though the royals have said nothing, I believe there is a connection between H&M's love of Windsor and Frogmore in particular, which has to do with all the Windsor family history steeped in those grounds, including the King George III/ Queen Sophia Charlotte love story, QSC's ethnic background, and the fact that KGIII was the last British King of America (which connects to Meghan's American and ethnic heritage).

Indeed, if we go back far enough, all of humanity are connected in some way. But that's too mind-blowing for most of us to comprehend.

Here's info on the limited tourist dates annually for visiting Frogmore House:
https://www.windsor.gov.uk/things-to...e-house-p50923
  #168  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Your stating that all of the European royal families descend in some way from Margarita is unsurprising. This historic reality is one reason why I referenced the unstated significance of Frogmore House and Windsor to Harry & Meghan (beyond it's idyllic country setting). Even though the royals have said nothing, I believe there is a connection between H&M's love of Windsor and Frogmore in particular, which has to do with all the Windsor family history steeped in those grounds, including the King George III/ Queen Sophia Charlotte love story, QSC's ethnic background, and the fact that KGIII was the last British King of America (which connects to Meghan's American and ethnic heritage).
That's a very good point and one I hadn't thought of. Meghan may very well have a special affection for Frogmore due its association with Queen Charlotte and the stories of Charlotte's African ancestry.
  #169  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I like how KP made sure to mention that their official office will continue to be at KP. The rumors of tension and splitting are false. Now the couple must be rather busy overseeing the finishing renovations of their new family home.
Not necessarily.

KP is where the offices are for the Cambridges, Gloucesters, Kents etc ... and they are separate offices so there could easily be a split between the Cambridge and Sussex offices.

In fact it makes sense that there will be as William increases his workload as he moves closer to being the heir apparent and eventual King.

Andrew, Edward and Anne all have separate offices at BP as well.

It is more normal for each adult royal to have their own office as it is a sign of them being an adult and grown up.
  #170  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
The New York Times article was wrong. A lot of inaccurate articles about the Royal Family were published then, just as they are now. See the last two articles I posted above (which were published in England), one of which specifically states the reports of Queen Mary moving to Frogmore Cottage were wrong. Frogmore Cottage was *considered* for Queen Mary but she decided it was not to her liking. And as I pointed out earlier, James Pope-Hennessy says nothing about Frogmore Cottage in his authorized biography of Queen Mary although he discusses her other residences. Queen Mary never lived in Frogmore Cottage.

Ah ok Thanks Gawin.


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  #171  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Not necessarily.

KP is where the offices are for the Cambridges, Gloucesters, Kents etc ... and they are separate offices so there could easily be a split between the Cambridge and Sussex offices.

In fact it makes sense that there will be as William increases his workload as he moves closer to being the heir apparent and eventual King.

Andrew, Edward and Anne all have separate offices at BP as well.

It is more normal for each adult royal to have their own office as it is a sign of them being an adult and grown up.
Agreed. I find it annoying that just because two grown adults with two full time workload now might separate their offices means they’ve got beef with each other. Or the insinuation that one of the wives is causing some kind of trouble as many of the articles try to suggest. Andrew and Edward shared a Private Secretary once upon a time, did we expect them to do the same forever?

Just like many siblings choose not to live next to each other even if they lived together growing up. It’s a natural progression of life called growing up.
  #172  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:57 PM
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Ah ok Thanks Gawin.


LaRae
Apparently Harry and Meghan don't share Queen Mary's grand taste.
  #173  
Old 11-24-2018, 09:59 PM
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Apparently Harry and Meghan don't share Queen Mary's grand taste.
I imagine what is considered grand is relative. When you wear tiaras to dinner normally, 10 bedroom might not be sufficient.
  #174  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:20 PM
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That's a very good point and one I hadn't thought of. Meghan may very well have a special affection for Frogmore due its association with Queen Charlotte and the stories of Charlotte's African ancestry.
I highly doubt they chose a home because it was made for Charlotte whose thirteen time great grandmother may have had African roots. Most historians believe Madragena was not moorish. It seems some people always want to make it about race one way or the other, good or bad.

The couple were drawn to the home when they used Windsor and its estates as a place to escape attention and be outside together.
  #175  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Not necessarily.

KP is where the offices are for the Cambridges, Gloucesters, Kents etc ... and they are separate offices so there could easily be a split between the Cambridge and Sussex offices.

In fact it makes sense that there will be as William increases his workload as he moves closer to being the heir apparent and eventual King.

Andrew, Edward and Anne all have separate offices at BP as well.

It is more normal for each adult royal to have their own office as it is a sign of them being an adult and grown up.
What I’m saying is that their official office remains at Kensington Palace. The media is using Harry and Meghan moving to their new family home as a base for their false stories about tension between the couples. Everyone knew the Sussex’s couldn’t turn their current small Cottage into a family home. They had to move eventually. There’s no more large apartments available at KP, so they got a larger house at Windsor. It’s just that simple.
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  #176  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:31 PM
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Agreed. I find it annoying that just because two grown adults with two full time workload now might separate their offices means they’ve got beef with each other. Or the insinuation that one of the wives is causing some kind of trouble as many of the articles try to suggest. Andrew and Edward shared a Private Secretary once upon a time, did we expect them to do the same forever?

Just like many siblings choose not to live next to each other even if they lived together growing up. It’s a natural progression of life called growing up.
Indeed. And I also think that in addition to the reports of Meghan and Harry preferring the English countryside, the fact is that although Harry and William share friends in common, their wives do not. I also think Meghan & Kate have different interests and personalities. Surely they are cordial and friendly and will have an unusual bond for the rest of their lives in being married to the sons of Diana. But altogether, I can see M&H wanting to set up permanent residence away from KP in a place of their own choosing.

It's possible all of these eventual living arrangement changes were discussed and known between the brothers prior to M&H's wedding. Certainly, arrangements will have been started many months ago regarding the renovations to Frogmore Cottage.
  #177  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:32 PM
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I highly doubt they chose a home because it was made for Charlotte whose thirteen time great grandmother may have had African roots. Most historians believe Madragena was not moorish. It seems some people always want to make it about race one way or the other, good or bad.

The couple were drawn to the home when they used Windsor and its estates as a place to escape attention and be outside together.
No one said they chose Frogmore Cottage for that reason. And the story about Queen Charlotte's African ancestry doesn't need to be true in order to be drawn by it.
  #178  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:33 PM
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What I’m saying is that their official office remains at Kensington Palace. The media is using Harry and Meghan moving to their new family home as a base for their false stories about tension between the couples. Everyone knew the Sussex’s couldn’t turn their current small Cottage into a family home. They had to move eventually. There’s no more large apartments available at KP, so they got a larger house at Windsor. It’s just that simple.
What’s odd about this having to be tension is that William actually hasn’t lived in London primarily for a number of years. The Cambridges only moved to London in the second half of last year. George even went to school in Norfolk. So much for the always up in each other’s home until now narrative.
  #179  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:54 PM
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I imagine what is considered grand is relative. When you wear tiaras to dinner normally, 10 bedroom might not be sufficient.
Ah, whereas for a modern, laid-back California girl like Meghan with simple unpretentious tastes, 10 bedrooms is delightfully more than grand. It's like her cup runneth over. To be able to reside at Frogmore Cottage with gorgeous views of Frogmore House and Windsor Home Park is surely an idyllic dream come true for both of them. They will be living near the site where they celebrated the happiest day of their lives.

I am always reminded of the self-told anecdote by Meghan. She was in her very own trailer on the set of Suits soon after landing the role. Looking at the basket of fresh fruit provided to her and glancing around at her very own trailer, Meghan joyfully expressed thanks for her blessings, instead of snootily feeling like she had arrived. She remembered all those years of auditions and rejections, and she rejoiced with thanksgiving. She related this story during an October 2016 gathering of the Create & Cultivate conference. This was at the time right before it was widely revealed she was dating Prince Harry.

So it's not surprising that Meghan likely feels blessed to make her permanent home in a 10-bedroom cottage on the grounds of historic Windsor Castle and grand Frogmore House. I'd say that sounds pretty luxurious enough for anyone.

Meghan told the Vanity Fair reporter for the September VF cover story, "I never define myself by my relationships." So, even as she was dating Prince Harry, Meghan was cognizant of her blessings and very attuned to sharing her hard-won life lessons with others. Meghan sharing her life lessons is what I miss most about her joining the royal family. But if her work with the Hubb Community Kitchen is any indication, she will continue to reach out to the public in whatever ways she can that will resonate and make a significant difference.
  #180  
Old 11-24-2018, 11:15 PM
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No one said they chose Frogmore Cottage for that reason. And the story about Queen Charlotte's African ancestry doesn't need to be true in order to be drawn by it.
Oh, of course. I agree with your response to Countessmeout. There is something fascinating about King George III and Queen Sophia Charlotte, which has to do with human history, and that's very appealing. I think this is particularly true when we think of his tragic illness (thought to be porphyria) which could not be diagnosed properly at that time in history because nothing was known or understood about it. So he goes down in history as the Mad King who lost the colonies. The reality might be something very different. It would be cool to see George and Sophia Charlotte's story faithfully dramatized with the new information that's available.

And at the same time, as you note, Windsor Castle and its environs, especially the lovely area around Frogmore House has it's very own delightful appeal, regardless of the fascinating historic connections, which I personally imagine to be significant and romantic.

The royals simply rarely reveal stuff that's intimate and personal. However, Harry is much more forthcoming and revealing of his personality than many of the other royals. On their walkabouts, we can't help but notice such incidences as when Harry brought over to meet Meghan the pretty young girl of color who told Harry she wanted to be an actor like Meghan. When they were introduced, Meghan spontaneously hugged the young girl close. Think how meaningful and inspiring that moment was for the young girl. On the recent South Pacific tour, there was the story of another very young female child who it's said Harry recognized as having a resemblance to Meghan.

Therefore, I don't think it's a stretch that the royals are aware of Queen Sophia Charlotte's ancestry, and that Harry shared this family history with Meghan during their time spent on the Windsor Estate. Even without these interesting connections, of course Windsor is a beautiful locale and St. George's Chapel is a lovely place for an intimate, yet traditional royal wedding. Harry apparently spent some happy childhood moments at Windsor, and he attended nearby Eton, so he was surely happy to share with Meghan, the Windsor Estate's history and his fond childhood memories of growing up there.

Frankly I didn't know a lot about Windsor and it's environs until recently, with the advent of Meghan joining the British royal family. In fact, I previously knew nothing at all about Frogmore House. So Meghan joining the British royal family has provided the opportunity for many who are interested in British royal history, to learn a great deal.

There's really nothing negative about the fact, as Meghan said in the engagement interview, that she's proud of who she is, and she embraces who she is. That's clearly one of the reasons why Harry loves her. Recognizing and honoring one's heritage and making sure to include some aspects of it in one's new life is not negative. We saw touches of that inclusive recognition and honoring during the royal wedding. No conversation about any of our backgrounds has to be negative, simply because it's mentioned as a touchstone that has to do with human history.
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