The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #281  
Old 03-08-2020, 03:10 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post

In the case of prince Claus (and prince Bernhard and prince Hendrik before him), he did NOT get his wife's surname but was made a prince of the Netherlands (just like his daughter-in-law Máxima was made a princess of the Netherlands). Their children took both their mother's and father's titles; using one of their mother's titles (van Oranje-Nassau) as surname (mostly shortened to 'van Oranje'); which is also considered the name of the royal house. So, I don't see a reason for Amalia's husband to take on her surname; her children will surely be 'van Oranje(-Nassau)'.

And this was also done by his tow predecessors as consort of Queens as Queen Juliana was also Duchess zu Mecklenburg and Queen Beatrix and her sisters are aklso Princesses zur Lippe-Biesterfeld. So one can exxpect that this will also be done for the future husband of Princess Catharina-Amalia.
__________________

__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 03-08-2020, 07:37 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Prince Daniel in Sweden for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
I can see more families adopting what the Swedish have done, and having the husband take on the family name of his royal wife.
Due to the adoption of a new Swedish name law in 2017 a future consort of Princess Estelle would not have to take her surname given that a child of theirs would automatically receive the surname of the parent who gave birth to them unless otherwise reported to the Swedish Tax Office.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:31 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Other countries (The Netherlands and Denmark) already found a modus operandi for this situation (although Christian is of course not one of the female heirs).

In the case of prince Claus (and prince Bernhard and prince Hendrik before him), he did NOT get his wife's surname but was made a prince of the Netherlands (just like his daughter-in-law Máxima was made a princess of the Netherlands). Their children took both their mother's and father's titles; using one of their mother's titles (van Oranje-Nassau) as surname (mostly shortened to 'van Oranje'); which is also considered the name of the royal house. So, I don't see a reason for Amalia's husband to take on her surname; her children will surely be 'van Oranje(-Nassau)'.

In Denmark, they did something similar - albeit the addition of 'count of Monpezat' was a more recent one.

Even in Belgium, they already found a modus operandi, given that they wanted to make sure that Astrid's children were 'princes and princesses of Belgium' - using the surname 'of Belgium' -, so in the 90's they first made sure that their children added their mother's title/surname and later on also that her husband received her title (adding it to his own palet of titles - but the one that is primarily used in Belgium).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
And this was also done by his tow predecessors as consort of Queens as Queen Juliana was also Duchess zu Mecklenburg and Queen Beatrix and her sisters are aklso Princesses zur Lippe-Biesterfeld. So one can exxpect that this will also be done for the future husband of Princess Catharina-Amalia.

To add to the posts above: Legally, the situations with respect to fathers' and mothers' titles/surnames actually vary a great deal between the Netherlands, Denmark, and Belgium.


Netherlands: Both "of Orange-Nassau" from "Prince of Orange-Nassau" and "van Amsberg" from "Jonkheer van Amsberg" are recognized as surnames. The Royal Decree of February 16, 1966 decreed that the children of Princess Beatrix and Prince Claus would "de volgende titels en namen dragen: Zijne (Hare) Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins (Prinses) der Nederlanden, Prins (Prinses) van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer (Jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg."

Denmark: "of Monpezat" is recognized as a part of the title "Count(ess) of Monpezat" rather than a surname. The press release via which the Queen created her descendants Count(ess) of Monpezat addressed it as a title ("tillægges titel af ’greve af Monpezat"), and the members of the Royal House who carry the title Count(ess) of Monpezat have still not been civilly registered with a surname.

Belgium: Under King Baudouin, the Belgian court claimed that for female-line children, "of Belgium" was merely a title, not a surname, but King Albert II believed otherwise. King Philippe overruled both of his predecessors with his 2015 royal decree, according to which "of Belgium" is no longer viewed as a (legal) surname even for the male line. Today, for the children and male-line grandchildren of Princess Astrid, "of Austria-Este (Habsburg-Lorraine)" is viewed as their legal surname.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Due to the adoption of a new Swedish name law in 2017 a future consort of Princess Estelle would not have to take her surname given that a child of theirs would automatically receive the surname of the parent who gave birth to them unless otherwise reported to the Swedish Tax Office.
Wasn't that the situation under the old name law as well? According to the the second paragraph of §1, if the parents' surnames were different from one another, and they made no report to the Tax Office, the child received the mother's surname.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 03-08-2020, 09:01 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

Under German law, Queen Victoria lost her membership of the Royal House of Hannover when the union of the British and Hanoverian crowns was terminated in 1837, and became a member of the Ducal House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha when she married Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in 1840.

Succession laws in the House of Braunschweig
House laws of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

That she did but she still was a princess of Hanover, princess of Braunschweig-Lüneburg (that is the name of the whole family including the Electoral and later Royal line of Hanover) because she was born one as daughter of the Duke of Kent. There is always the difference between the "Royal House" where status and titles derive from and the "Royal family" where people get their surname or name of locality the family is originally from.


And I'm not sure though that she lost her Royal title of princess of Hannover, because she still was the male line granddaughter of a Hanoveran king and had the right to it since birth. But yes, when she married, she became a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 12-17-2020, 10:42 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
It is stated on the website of the British Royal Family that Windsor and Mountbatten-Windsor are official surnames appropriate for use on legal documents, even for members of the family with a royal title.



The Royal Family name | The Royal Family
https://www.royal.uk/royal-family-name


Members of the Royal Family can be known both by the name of the Royal house, and by a surname, which are not always the same. And often they do not use a surname at all.

Before 1917, members of the British Royal Family had no surname, but only the name of the house or dynasty to which they belonged. [...]

In 1917, there was a radical change, when George V specifically adopted Windsor, not only as the name of the 'House' or dynasty, but also as the surname of his family. [...]

However, in 1960, [...] It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen's descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor.

The effect of the declaration was that all The Queen's children, on occasions when they needed a surname, would have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

For the most part, members of the Royal Family who are entitled to the style and dignity of HRH Prince or Princess do not need a surname, but if at any time any of them do need a surname (such as upon marriage), that surname is Mountbatten-Windsor.

The surname Mountbatten-Windsor first appeared on an official document on 14 November 1973, in the marriage register at Westminster Abbey for the marriage of Princess Anne and Captain Mark Phillips.
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 12-17-2020, 01:22 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,598
My understanding has always been that they all have a surname. There's nothing to stop any of them using it with plain Mr/Mrs/Ms in place of a title or style.
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 12-17-2020, 01:49 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 16,526
The statement made by the Queen on the surname of Mountbatten-Windsor is the formal explanation. It doesn't stop any of her descendants from *choosing* to use that surname if they please as in the case of Anne signing her wedding register.

Harry, very well could decide to use Mountbatten-Windsor in the US and The Duke of Sussex while he's in the UK. Similar to Charles being known as The Duke of Rothesay when he is in Scotland.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:06 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post

Harry, very well could decide to use Mountbatten-Windsor in the US and The Duke of Sussex while he's in the UK. Similar to Charles being known as The Duke of Rothesay when he is in Scotland.
Sounds like a good compromise. It would certainly lessen much (all?) of the criticism on this side of the pond.

Maybe it's already being considered.
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:16 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The statement made by the Queen on the surname of Mountbatten-Windsor is the formal explanation. It doesn't stop any of her descendants from *choosing* to use that surname if they please as in the case of Anne signing her wedding register.


The choice to use Anne's surname Mountbatten-Windsor on her marriage register was made by the Queen, according to a Buckingham Palace statement:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
We're getting off-topic but...according to "The Queen: The Life of Elizabeth II" by Elizabeth Longford, Anne's name was filled in by the registrar as "Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise Mountbatten-Windsor" at the Queen's request. She quotes a comment from Buckingham Palace in October 1975:

"This was the first time that the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor" was used on an official document by any of the Queen's descendants. It was the Queen's decision that this should be done as Her Majesty wished her husband's name to appear on the Marriage Register of their daughter. (The Queen did not seek the advice of her Ministers in this matter)." (p. 218).

The certificate appears here (I had to shorten the lengthy URL):
https://tinyurl.com/y8uy82g6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
I should also add the Lady Longford also states that "after the announcement [regarding Mountbatten-Windsor surname] the Queen was to confirm with the Home Secretary (acting for the Prime Minister) that 'all the children of Your Majesty who may at any time need a surname have the name of Mountbatten-Windsor'" (pp. 217-18).
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:25 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 16,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Sounds like a good compromise. It would certainly lessen much (all?) of the criticism on this side of the pond.

Maybe it's already being considered.
The 'after a year" review perhaps? It will be interesting to see what the future holds.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:53 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Harry, very well could decide to use Mountbatten-Windsor in the US and The Duke of Sussex while he's in the UK. Similar to Charles being known as The Duke of Rothesay when he is in Scotland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Sounds like a good compromise. It would certainly lessen much (all?) of the criticism on this side of the pond.

Maybe it's already being considered.

If he were to follow the custom of the British peerage, he would be known as Harry Sussex in any circumstance where he did not use his title, with the exception of official documents.

Most British peers (royal peers included) use the name of their peerage informally as a surname in situations where there is no need for their legal surname but the use of their title is undesirable.


A poster here compiled a list of British peers who follow the custom in their choice of professional name:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
William Cavendish is the son of The Duke of Devonshire - courtesy titles are Marquess of Hartington & previously Earl of Burlington but he doesn't use them, preferring to be known as Bill Burlington. He's a photographer.

Charles Beauclerk is the son of The Duke of St Albans - courtesy title is the Earl of Burford but he never uses it and just calls himself Charles Beauclerk.

Arthur Wellesley is the son of The Duke of Wellington - courtesy titles are the Marquess of Douro & the Earl of Mornington. He never uses the Douro title & professionally (finance & business) calls himself Arthur Mornington.

George Spencer-Churchill is the son of The Duke of Marlborough - courtesy titles are Marquess of Blandford and Earl of Sunderland. He doesn't use his title when he plays polo or models clothing (he's done both as George Spencer-Churchill & George Blandford) & on Instagram he uses George Blandford & George Spencer-Churchill.

Henry Fitzalan-Howard is the son of The Duke of Norfolk - courtesy title is Earl of Arundel but he just called himself Henry Arundel in his motor racing days.

Alexander Windsor is the son of The Duke of Gloucester - courtesy title is the Earl of Ulster but he has referred to himself as Alex Ulster professionally.

Edward Windsor is the grandson of The Duke of Kent - courtesy title is Baron Downpatrick but he just calls himself Eddy Downpatrick professionally. He'll become the Earl of St Andrews when his Grandfather dies & eventually Duke of Kent - interesting to see if he changes his everyday name then.

There are several examples of Earl's sons not using their courtesy titles but I'll just include the following two for interest:

The Queen's cousin Thomas Anson, 5th Earl of Lichfield didn't use his title professionally & instead used the name Patrick Lichfield throughout his photographic career.

The Queen's nephew David Armstrong-Jones, was Viscount Linley & is now 2nd Earl of Snowdon but hasn't used his titles professionally & instead has always used the name of David Linley.

That said, it does have the potential to confuse Americans who are unacquainted with the custom.
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:18 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,598
And the late Duke & Duchess of Devonshire published under Andrew & Deborah Devonshire. Not their actual surname Cavendish.

So there seem to be no hard & fast rules.
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:29 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
Indeed, in the UK one can apparently use whatever name one desires, except in official documents (where a change of name would need a legal process).

https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll

But the majority of peers seem to prefer to keep to the traditional custom of using the name of their peerages as their informal surname.
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:34 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Indeed, in the UK one can apparently use whatever name one desires, except in official documents (where a change of name would need a legal process).

https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll

But the majority of peers seem to prefer to keep to the traditional custom of using the name of their peerages as their informal surname.
As you imply they sign with their territorial designation as far as I'm aware.




Ah the British class system. Makes for some good comedy.
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 04-06-2021, 06:59 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 7,029
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 04-06-2021, 07:30 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The choice to use Anne's surname Mountbatten-Windsor on her marriage register was made by the Queen, according to a Buckingham Palace statement:



Prince Harry on the other hand used "Henry Charles Albert David of Wales" on his marriage certificate, with "of Wales" as de facto surname.


The use of the paternal peerage as surname was actually the custom among the "grandchildren of France" (i.e. , the King's grandchildren who were not also the Dauphin's children). The "children of France", who included the King's children, the Dauphin's children, and, I think, also the children of the eldest son of the Dauphin used "of France" as surname (similar to King Albert II's interpretation of the use of "de Belgique / van België" in his family).


I wonder if Beatrice and Eugenie followed Harry and also used "of York" on their marriage certificates rather than "Mountbatten-Windsor".
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 04-06-2021, 09:05 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
Does anybody know the reason the Royal Family retreated from the announcement in 2003 that the daughter of the Earl of Wessex would be called Lady Louise Windsor, instead of Mountbatten-Windsor?

Buckingham Palace announced that the Earl and Countess of Wessex are to call their newborn daughter Louise Alice Elizabeth Mary Mountbatten-Windsor.

She will, however, be generally known by the more easily remembered title of Lady Louise Windsor, a Palace spokesman added.

Apparently, something changed, since by the time she became a bridesmaid in the wedding of Prince William in 2011 she was called Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 04-06-2021, 10:35 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 6,336
Weren't they trying to say that she officially is Lady Louise Mountbatten-Winsor; as she was correctly called on the official list as a bridesmaid, while in daily life she uses 'Windsor' as a surname (for example at school etc). As far as I am aware, that is indeed how she is called in daily life.
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 04-06-2021, 10:39 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Weren't they trying to say that she officially is Lady Louise Mountbatten-Winsor; as she was correctly called on the official list as a bridesmaid, while in daily life she uses 'Windsor' as a surname (for example at school etc). As far as I am aware, that is indeed how she is called in daily life.
She was at first called Lady Louise Windsor officially.

Announcement of the christening of Lady Louise Windsor | The Royal Family
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, styles and titles, surnames


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family Australian The Royal Family of Greece 446 12-28-2020 06:51 AM
Surname of the Danish Royal Family pepperann Royal House of Denmark 48 09-03-2010 04:56 AM
Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor News and Pictures 3: October 2005-March 2007 Elspeth Current Events Archive 195 06-07-2007 08:24 AM
Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor News and Pictures 2: May 2004-October 2005 USCtrojan Current Events Archive 220 10-10-2005 10:51 PM
Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor News and Pictures 1: November 2003-May 2004 montecarlo Current Events Archive 157 05-29-2004 01:38 PM




Popular Tags
abu dhabi america archie mountbatten-windsor background story baptism biography british british royal family buckingham palace camilla camilla's family camilla parker-bowles camilla parker bowles china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing chinese commonwealth countries countess of snowdon customs daisy doge of venice doll duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex edward vii elizabeth ii family life family tree fashion and style george vi gustaf vi adolf harry and meghan hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume highgrove jack brooksbank jewellery king edward vii king willem-alexander książ castle line of succession list of rulers meghan markle mountbatten names nepal nepalese royal jewels plantinum jubilee prince charles of luxembourg prince constantijn prince harry princess ariane princess catharina-amalia princess chulabhorn walailak princess dita princess eugenie princess ribha queen consort queen louise queen maxima queen victoria royal ancestry spain speech suthida taiwan thailand unfinished portrait united states of america welsh


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:00 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×