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  #1781  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Yes but Harry’s in the second carriage now. Just the two future Queen consorts in the first carriage.

Happy they didn’t put all four together
Even though they are future Queen consorts, when they're without their husbands, Harry outranks them.
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  #1782  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:26 PM
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I can attest to this being taught lip reading as a young child to assist with a hearing loss. Studies show that only about 30 to 45 percent of the English language can be understood through lip reading alone. Lip reading is a tool to assist in understanding the spoken word rather than 100% accurate by itself.

Those that claim to "lip read" without sound cannot be 100% accurate at all.
My late aunt had a similar condition as a child Osipi and even up to her death relied upon lip reading to aid in her comprehension. We learned to always face her when conversing. Her experiences with a hearing loss inspired her to become a speech language pathologist.
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  #1783  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:36 PM
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Its a neat asset sometimes when you're watching something on TV and something is *bleeped* out. You know what they said.
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  #1784  
Old 06-11-2018, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I am as much a member of my mother's family as I am my father's family.
(in fact family reunion this summer-the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and even a few great great grandchildren of my late grandparents-possible 96+ people or more) Very few of us have my grandfather's last name. In fact, only 7 men and 4 wives of all those people have his last name.

We are talking of Windsors descended from George V at the moment, not all the descendants of Queen Victoria. The Queen obviously considers these people her family.




Obviously you didn't understand my analogy.



Queen Elizabeth II is a great-great-granddaughter in paternal line of Queen Victoria. Queen Margrethe II, King Carl XVI Gustaf and King Juan Carlos I are all great-great-grandchildren in maternal line of Queen Victoria. They are third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II.



Prince William is a great-great-grandson, in this case also in maternal line, of King George V. Zenouska Mowatt is a great-great-granddaughter in maternal line of King George V. Zenouska and William are thrird cousins.


Barring the minor details on maternal versus paternal line, William's kinship to Zenouska is the same then as Queen Elizabeth II's kinship to Margrethe, Carl Gustaf and Juan Carlos.



If we accept, as you propose, that William and Zenouska belong to the same family, then, by analogy, so do Elizabeth, Margrethe, Juan Carlos and Carl Gustaf. In fact, except for the royal family of the Netherlands, there would be only one single royal family in Western Europe by your reasoning as all monarchs (or former monarchs before abdication) are either second cousins or third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II (former King Albert II of Belgium and QEII are third cousins also, but through their common descent from Christian IX of Denmark rather than Queen Victoria).



If you want to go further down and include up to fifth cousins (?), then Princess Beatrix and Queen Elizabeth II are also members of the same family. You haven't answered my question though: where does a family end and how does one determine if two people belong to the same family or different families? Obviously, there has to be an objective criterion somehow.


Zenouska is not Queen Elizabeth II's direct descendant. She is a granddaughter of the Queen's first cousin. The notion that she should be considered a member of the Royal Family (i.e. the family of the sovereign) seems absurd to me. Of course, the Queen can invite anyone she wants to be on the balcony (even Thai princesses or the Liechtenstein Jacobite pretender for that matter !), but I think she should stick with her descendants or, maybe, all descendants of her father. Her first cousins could be there too, since they are HRHs and, hence, members of the Royal House, but that should be it IMHO.


Finally, on your last sentence, Zenouska is not a Windsor like Xan or Maud. Her family name is Mowatt.
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  #1785  
Old 06-11-2018, 01:52 PM
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Just to put my "two cents" in. There are just far too many people on the balcony this year. No offense, but it's time to cut down the number of people. The Dukes and Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester, Prince(ss) Michael and Princess Alexandra are fine, but their children and grandchildren are just too much nowadays, especially with the Queen's grandchildren and great grandchildren making their appearances (most with spouses). Maybe it's a good thing Prince Phillip sat this one out, he might not have had anywhere to stand.
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  #1786  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Obviously you didn't understand my analogy.



Queen Elizabeth II is a great-great-granddaughter in paternal line of Queen Victoria. Queen Margrethe II, King Carl XVI Gustaf and King Juan Carlos I are all great-great-grandchildren in maternal line of Queen Victoria. They are third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II.



Prince William is a great-great-grandson, in this case also in maternal line, of King George V. Zenouska Mowatt is a great-great-granddaughter in maternal line of King George V. Zenouska and William are thrird cousins.


Barring the minor details on maternal versus paternal line, William's kinship to Zenouska is the same then as Queen Elizabeth II's kinship to Margrethe, Carl Gustaf and Juan Carlos.



If we accept, as you propose, that William and Zenouska belong to the same family, then, by analogy, so do Elizabeth, Margrethe, Juan Carlos and Carl Gustaf. In fact, except for the royal family of the Netherlands, there would be only one single royal family in Western Europe by your reasoning as all monarchs (or former monarchs before abdication) are either second cousins or third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II (former King Albert II of Belgium and QEII are third cousins also, but through their common descent from Christian IX of Denmark rather than Queen Victoria).



If you want to go further down and include up to fifth cousins (?), then Princess Beatrix and Queen Elizabeth II are also members of the same family. You haven't answered my question though: where does a family end and how does one determine if two people belong to the same family or different families? Obviously, there has to be an objective criterion somehow.


Zenouska is not Queen Elizabeth II's direct descendant. She is a granddaughter of the Queen's first cousin. The notion that she should be considered a member of the Royal Family (i.e. the family of the sovereign) seems absurd to me. Of course, the Queen can invite anyone she wants to be on the balcony (even Thai princesses or the Liechtenstein Jacobite pretender for that matter !), but I think she should stick with her descendants or, maybe, all descendants of her father. Her first cousins could be there too, since they are HRHs and, hence, members of the Royal House, but that should be it IMHO.


Finally, on your last sentence, Zenouska is not a Windsor like Xan or Maud. Her family name is Mowatt.
I just fundamentally disagree about who is considered family.

With the Queen "her British Royal Family" obviously are the descendants of her grandfather. Her Windsor first cousins and their families. Not all the descendants of Queen Victoria or King Christian IX. This is what the Queen wants or we woudn't see these relatives there for her "birthday."

With Charles as King there may very well be changes.

Zenouska is as much a Windsor as Xan. They share the same Windsor grandfather. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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  #1787  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:58 PM
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A few years ago I watched one of the documentaries the BRF periodically allows made "behind the scenes." This one, I don't recall the name, showed workers at Buckingham Palace explaining things about their jobs...the man who does a complete walk through the palace every day checking and winding all the antique clocks, the chef and waitstaff preparing for a state dinner, and a butler getting everything ready for Trooping the Color. IIRC, he was setting everything up in the room from which the balcony opens.

The impression I got from his explanation of what would be happening there is that, once they're back at the palace that day, the Queen considers that part of the day an extended family* party. In that room they're having their pre-lunch cocktails and enjoying some social time with all the cousins and such. They do all go out on the balcony, but at least in part that's the Queen as hostess offering her guests a chance to see the fly-past from a good point of view. That explains why we occasionally (rarely, but not unheard of) see non-family members out there with the family; those people have been invited to the party, and the Queen is not the kind of hostess who gives some of her guests a good view of the entertainment while others have to peek through windows.

Now, that's how the butler chose to talk about that part of the day. It may not give the complete picture of how the BRF think about the balcony portion of Trooping the Color. But at least a part of the mindset going into who is on the balcony, where they stand, etc. seems to be independent of any concerns or thoughts regarding image or messaging.

*As for who is or isn't "family," it seems quite clear from the people who regularly show up at the Queen's family events (Trooping the Colour, the family Christmas party, etc.) she defines the term the way most people do, which is to say that she's not getting technical about who is x degrees away on the family tree or which last name they have, but rather it's whichever relatives have always been included in family events, their spouses, kids, grandkids, etc.
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  #1788  
Old 06-11-2018, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess gertrude View Post
Just to put my "two cents" in. There are just far too many people on the balcony this year. No offense, but it's time to cut down the number of people. The Dukes and Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester, Prince(ss) Michael and Princess Alexandra are fine, but their children and grandchildren are just too much nowadays, especially with the Queen's grandchildren and great grandchildren making their appearances (most with spouses). Maybe it's a good thing Prince Phillip sat this one out, he might not have had anywhere to stand.

IMHO that is exactly why they were all there. Who knows how Philip is in one year's time? Or if there is a Trooping the Colour at all or when it is? At their ages, Philip and Elizabeth must realise that each event could be their last. It is pure speculation on my part but the fact that Philip came to Harry's wedding at all is proof of the deep love he has for his family. Same with inviting so many distant relatives for this day. It is her birthday celebration after all.



I wish them so many happy days still.
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  #1789  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
Even though they are future Queen consorts, when they're without their husbands, Harry outranks them.
Not true.

The precedence that the women take based on their own personal status only applies when there are NO men present.

The instant any royal man is present the women take their precedence according to the rank of their husbands.

This 'princesses born' precedence only applies in ALL women situations and in PRIVATE situations, not when on official duties or whenever their is a royal man present.
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  #1790  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I just fundamentally disagree about who is considered family.

With the Queen "her British Royal Family" obviously are the descendants of her grandfather. Her Windsor first cousins and their families. Not all the descendants of Queen Victoria or King Christian IX. This is what the Queen wants or we woudn't see these relatives there for her "birthday."

With Charles as King there may very well be changes.

Zenouska is as much a Windsor as Xan. They share the same Windsor grandfather. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think the people on the balcony for Trooping fit these three criteria:
1. They want to be there
1a. The timing is good for them
2. There are with other close family members
3. Elizabeth wants them there
4. They will behave in public after meeting one of the 4 criteria above

As with every family, there are diary conflicts, spats/hard feelings amongst and between family and lack of interest in some family members.

For example, say my kids have been in the past, but really hate going. I might decide it is time to take a hiatus form the balcony. But then say, I've not been going to Trooping because it is just a lot of standing around and waiting. The lunch is nice, but with 50 or so family, there are years, we don't get to spend quality time with Great/Grandmama. But, then I have a child/grandchild and Trooping regains its appeal because I get to live it through the next generation's eyes. So I resume going.

I've also thought (don't scoff) about the cost of the event for a branch of the family. To have to haul into London, find accommodations, buy all the clothing that might not get worn for anything else, eat out, etc... If school is for 4 kids that year, it might mean I have to make a choice between Family Spring Break in the Seychelles or the balcony. I know where my teenagers' hearts would be for many families.

I think the Queen is very open about this. I think its is family members that decide to show up or not and that is usually for a decent reason.
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  #1791  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Not true.

The precedence that the women take based on their own personal status only applies when there are NO men present.

The instant any royal man is present the women take their precedence according to the rank of their husbands.

This 'princesses born' precedence only applies in ALL women situations and in PRIVATE situations, not when on official duties or whenever their is a royal man present.
Does it make sense though to observe precedence in private situations ? I am sure everybody curtsies to the Queen even in private, but does Kate really curtsy to Beatrice when they meet in private and casually ? I find it hard to believe, which raises the question of what the point is with these women-only, private rules of precedence .
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  #1792  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:33 PM
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The only thing that bothers...the royal family aren’t into waving to the crowds after the Trooping. It’s like they just stand there and stare. The whole family should give a nice unison royal wave.
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  #1793  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Does it make sense though to observe precedence in private situations ? I am sure everybody curtsies to the Queen even in private, but does Kate really curtsy to Beatrice when they meet in private and casually ? I find it hard to believe, which raises the question of what the point is with these women-only, private rules of precedence .
NO no no, not to attack you and if it appears as such sorry, but the only person female members of he royal family curtsy to is Her Majesty, and the Duke of Edinburgh out of courtesy. Precedence is the order members of the family enter an event and also who is listed where in the CC. Since 2012 mainly, there has been a misconception that it has to do with curtsying but that is not the case.
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  #1794  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:07 PM
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Court Circular 9th June:
Her Majesty was present at The Queen’s Birthday Parade on Horse Guards Parade this morning at which The Queen’s Colour of 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards was Trooped.

The Queen was accompanied by The Prince of Wales (Colonel, Welsh Guards), The Duke of Cambridge (Colonel, Irish Guards), The Duke of York (Colonel, Grenadier Guards), The Princess Royal (Gold Stick in Waiting and Colonel, The Blues and Royals, Royal Horse Guards and 1st Dragoons) and The Duke of Kent (Colonel, Scots Guards).

Her Majesty was attended by Field Marshal the Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank (Colonel, The Life Guards), Lieutenant General Sir James Bucknall (Colonel, Coldstream Guards) and Major General Benjamin Bathurst (Major General Commanding Household Division).

The Lord Vestey (Master of the Horse), Colonel Toby Browne, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Vernon, Major Nana Twumasi-Ankrah (Mounted Equerries in Waiting), Captain Jocelyn Bucknall (Coldstream Guards, Dismounted Equerry in Waiting) and Major General Sir Edward Smyth-Osbourne (Silver Stick in Waiting) were in attendance.

Colonel Crispin Lockhart (Chief of Staff), Lieutenant Colonel Harry Scott (Silver Stick Adjutant) and the Household Division Staff were present.
The Procession was led by Lieutenant Colonel Guy Stone, Welsh Guards (Brigade Major Household Division).

The troops on Parade, under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Edwyn Launders, Coldstream Guards (Field Officer in Brigade Waiting), received The Queen with a Royal Salute.

The Duchess of Cornwall, The Duchess of Cambridge, The Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Princess Beatrice of York and Princess Eugenie of York, The Countess of Wessex, accompanied by the Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, The Duchess of Kent, Prince and Princess Michael of Kent, Princess Alexandra, the Hon Lady Ogilvy, Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence and other Members of the Royal Family drove to Horse Guards Parade and witnessed The Queen’s Birthday Parade.

On the conclusion of the Parade, Her Majesty drove in a carriage back to Buckingham Palace at the head of The Queen’s Guard, preceded by The King’s Troop Royal Horse Artillery, under the command of Major Harry Wallace, the Massed Mounted Bands of the Household Cavalry, the Sovereign’s Escort of the Household Cavalry, under the command of Major Jeremy Sudlow (The Blues and Royals, Royal Horse Guards and 1st Dragoons), and the Massed Bands of the Guards Division.

On arrival at Buckingham Palace, The Queen’s Guard entered the Forecourt and formed up opposite the Old Guard.

Her Majesty, from Buckingham Palace, witnessed a fly-past by aircraft of the Royal Air Force, led by Squadron Leader Martin Wild, Royal Air Force, to mark the official celebration of The Queen’s Birthday.

Royal Salutes were fired today by The King’s Troop Royal Horse Artillery in Green Park and from the Tower of London Saluting Battery by the Honourable Artillery Company, under the command of Major George Cobb.
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  #1795  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Does it make sense though to observe precedence in private situations ? I am sure everybody curtsies to the Queen even in private, but does Kate really curtsy to Beatrice when they meet in private and casually ? I find it hard to believe, which raises the question of what the point is with these women-only, private rules of precedence .
It has nothing to do with what makes sense to an American, commoners or even individual members of the family. What matters is what QEII wants in these situations. To a lesser extent, what matters is the opinion of palace courtiers because we have seen over the years they can make things miserable for members of the family who are not playing by rules the courtiers demand.

JMO, but QRII is not a stickler for exact orders of precedence when she has a need/want for something else. What happens on the balcony shifts year to year to year (go and look at past photos if you don't want to believe me).

And maybe this precedence discussion belongs on that thread.
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  #1796  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:02 PM
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Lady Louise is mentioned as 'accompanying' her mother unlike all other family members that are mentioned - this might be related to her 'in-between' status as non-royal daughter who should have been a royal princess (see discusdion in British title thread). And Anne's husband is last in the order of names as the non-royal husband of a royal highness (Peter Phillips isn't mentioned either as is to be expected as he isn't royal either).

The Duchess of Gloucester apparently was expected to attend, so did we just miss her in identyfing all the family members or did she truly not attend or stay inside?
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  #1797  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:17 PM
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I didn't see the Duchess of Gloucester nor did I see Princess Alexandra.
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  #1798  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Lady Louise is mentioned as 'accompanying' her mother unlike all other family members that are mentioned - this might be related to her 'in-between' status as non-royal daughter who should have been a royal princess (see discusdion in British title thread). And Anne's husband is last in the order of names as the non-royal husband of a royal highness (Peter Phillips isn't mentioned either as is to be expected as he isn't royal either).
All royal children are mentioned as accompanying their parents when they attend royal events, even Prince William and Harry during the early-mid 2000's. In fact Beatrice and Eugenie still usually "accompany" their father to these types of events, due to not being working royals, but since he was riding they were given their own mention.

With Tim, it's customary in the CC for all the HRH's to be listed first and then those without it are listed after based on precedence, unless those without the royal style are in the company of one with it.
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  #1799  
Old 06-11-2018, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I didn't see the Duchess of Gloucester nor did I see Princess Alexandra.
If they get credit in the CC they were there. It’s possible they were just behind taller people or perhaps didn’t try to fit on an overcrowded balcony and stayed inside.
Someone on twitter mentioned seeing Alexandra for a second in the video.
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  #1800  
Old 06-11-2018, 11:06 PM
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It was a colourful display of well wishers on the balcony.
I love the extended families of the current working royals all there for the celebration. Seeing the children adds depth and interest and the fly over was fabulous.
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