The Windsors and Europe

[Marengo]

This thread has been cleaned up and is now re-opened. Several posts have been removed for either being too hotheaded, OT or simply because they were written as a reply to a deleted post. We did not send any warnings so far, as we understood that emotions were running high. However, we will be less understanding for new posts that do not follow the TRF Rules & FAQ that will be posted in this thread. Note that all of you agreed to follow these TRF Rules & FAQ when you joined this forum.

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As announced: the thread ' British non-attendance of Fabiola's funeral' has been merged with this one, as the topic is British and not Belgian.

Marengo,
for the Belgian Mod.team

 

[Iain]

I think it was a disgrace that nobody from the Windsors attended the funeral and I think many in the UK are disgusted with them including a friend who usually thinks that they can do no wrong. I also think it terrible that the British press largely ignore weddings, funerals etc of foreign royals. Even when they do report things such as state visits by foreign monarchs they use capital letters when talking about Queen Elizabeth or Prince Philip but use lower case when speaking about a foreign (k)ing or (q)ueen. This is because many British people don't regard foreign royals as "real" royalty. A friend once told me of overhearing a conversation between two ladies, one of whom said that the Windsors were the only royalty left in the world. When the other lady pointed out that there was royalty in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands etc, the first lady said "oh but they are not real royalty, they only have their titles because our Queen allows them to use them, but if she wanted, she could take their titles away and they would just be commoners." Sadly, I think that is an opinion held by many in the UK. When Elizabeth had her Diamond Jubilee and she held a dinner for foreign monarchs there were protestations of horror that none of those monarchs bowed or curtsied to Elizabeth because, after all, "she is superior to them." I think that the Windsors themselves seem to think that they are superior to other royals.

Throughout her reign Elizabeth has never attended foreign royal occasions and I once read that this was because her first Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, had forbidden her from doing so. The reason being was because when monarchs attend royal occasions in another country they are seated in order with the longest reigning monarch first. As Elizabeth was the new kid on the block she would be last wherever she went and there was no way that old Churchill was going to have a British monarch last, after all, by his thinking she was superior to them all and should have been in the place of honour. Elizabeth is a creature of habit and throughout her reign has never moved with the times so even after Churchill left the scene she just continued with what he had said as if it was set in stone.

King Baudouin had reigned longer than Elizabeth so when he died it was presumed that she was now the longest reigning monarch in Europe and would have place of honour but the British Government forgot about Prince Rainier who had not only reigned longer than Elizabeth about also Baudouin and would therefore take precedence over Elizabeth in the seating order. That was it as far as the British Government was concerned, she was never to be allowed out again.

Someone posted earlier that Elizabeth had gone because Baudouin had died during her summer break and had free time but she has a lt more free time than people realise. Throughout her reign she has only worked a three day week, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and these are the only day she she performs official duties. On Friday morning she takes off for Windsor and returns on Monday Evening. When you consider that she has a months holiday at Christmas and New Year, another month at Easter and two months in the summer and doesn't undertake official duties during those time, then there are only eight months when she works. take away the long weekends and there are only 96 days (just over three months) in the year when she actually undertakes official duties.

 

[PetticoatLane]

What a load of nonsense.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Iain,
Queen Elizabeth II is 88 years old.
Last year she had public engagements on 181 days not 96 day. She also works every day of the year except Christmas.

 

[Iluvbertie]

She may not undertake an 'official duty' every day and so far this year she has undertaken public engagements on 141 days but... that doesn't include the reading of the red boxes which happens every day except Christmas Day and her ascension Day (6th February) so she works 363 days a year. It doesn't matter where in the world she is the boxes follow her so even if she is at Windsor, Sandringham, Balmoral, BP etc the boxes still follow her and have to be done.


She hasn't always gone to Windsor on a Friday morning and returned to BP on a Monday either as she only started doing that after her Golden Jubilee in 2002 - aged 76 or 10 years past the normal retirement age. Prior to that she would go down Friday evenings and return either Sunday evening or Monday mornings - and would often undertake official engagements from Windsor anyway.


Windsor isn't that far anyway - less than an hour by train these days.


Why no one attended the funeral we will probably never know. My British friends have all said 'Fabiola - who was she?' That had no idea of who she was and so to them there is no issue as the foreign royals don't register in Britain or on the world stage as such - none of my friends and colleagues here knew that Belgium had a monarchy or that a Queen Consort had died - no coverage and no interest.

 

[Arrjann]

I've had a discussion on Twitter about this issue. Bottom line IMO: it's a snub. Period. The FO gets the blame in many arguments, which I don't buy. The FO would surely advice to send a member of the RF to the funeral of a Queen Dowager of a neighbouring country with very strong ties. I think the Queen, for some reason, didn't send a representative from her own family, thereby making the wrong decision. It's about doing the appropriate thing and courtesy and the RF failed to do that in this case. It's absurd that the old Empress of Japan travels literally half the world to attend and the Brits stay away.


Follow me on Twitter: @houseoflemon

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] My British friends have all said 'Fabiola - who was she?' That had no idea of who she was and so to them there is no issue as the foreign royals don't register in Britain or on the world stage as such - none of my friends and colleagues here knew that Belgium had a monarchy or that a Queen Consort had died - no coverage and no interest.

It speaks volumes for the view on the wider world and the interest for current affairs your British friends have. In all newspapers there have been juicy obituaries about how a Spanish aristocrat was allegedly coupled to the King of the Belgians by an Irish nun. How that marriage remained childless, the problems with the trust funds were also often mentioned, so it was just in the news. Not even knowing that there are other monarchies outside the United Kingdom and that Belgium is one, especially in the centenary of WWI which was mainly fought on Flanders' Fields... it speaks volumes for the lack of bildung as is the German word. Here in France, the southern neighbour, and there in the Netherlands, the northern neighbour, they know that Belgium is a monarchy. That the western neighbour (the UK) has no clue... tja....

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

She may not undertake an 'official duty' every day and so far this year she has undertaken public engagements on 141 days but... that doesn't include the reading of the red boxes which happens every day except Christmas Day and her ascension Day (6th February) so she works 363 days a year. It doesn't matter where in the world she is the boxes follow her so even if she is at Windsor, Sandringham, Balmoral, BP etc the boxes still follow her and have to be done.


She hasn't always gone to Windsor on a Friday morning and returned to BP on a Monday either as she only started doing that after her Golden Jubilee in 2002 - aged 76 or 10 years past the normal retirement age. Prior to that she would go down Friday evenings and return either Sunday evening or Monday mornings - and would often undertake official engagements from Windsor anyway.


Windsor isn't that far anyway - less than an hour by train these days.


Why no one attended the funeral we will probably never know. My British friends have all said 'Fabiola - who was she?' That had no idea of who she was and so to them there is no issue as the foreign royals don't register in Britain or on the world stage as such - none of my friends and colleagues here knew that Belgium had a monarchy or that a Queen Consort had died - no coverage and no interest.

A very good post by Iluvbertie.

 

[Mirabel]

I tend to think it was actually just an oversight; someone was meant to go but no one was confirmed as going, so...no one went.

It's a pity, because it does seem ungracious, even though the slight was probably not intentional.

 

[wartenberg7]

originally posted by Iain

Nobility

Throughout her reign Elizabeth has never attended foreign royal occasions and I once read that this was because her first Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, had forbidden her from doing so. The reason being was because when monarchs attend royal occasions in another country they are seated in order with the longest reigning monarch first. As Elizabeth was the new kid on the block she would be last wherever she went and there was no way that old Churchill was going to have a British monarch last, after all, by his thinking she was superior to them all and should have been in the place of honour. Elizabeth is a creature of habit and throughout her reign has never moved with the times so even after Churchill left the scene she just continued with what he had said as if it was set in stone.

King Baudouin had reigned longer than Elizabeth so when he died it was presumed that she was now the longest reigning monarch in Europe and would have place of honour but the British Government forgot about Prince Rainier who had not only reigned longer than Elizabeth about also Baudouin and would therefore take precedence over Elizabeth in the seating order. That was it as far as the British Government was concerned, she was never to be allowed out again.
[/QUOTE]

Again, nothing but speculation ("I once read that..."). Churchill was never in the position to "forbid" his monarch anything, nor would a staunch royalist like him ever dare to! He might possibly "advised" her to do things, but that´s another speculation.
Prince Rainier as a "Serene Highness" would never take precedence over a monarch, a "Majesty", which is the most highranking title we know of on the entire planet! So, when it comes to seating orders, the longest reigning King/ Queen will be placed at the most prominent seat, then the next longest reigning monarch and so on. I think even the Grand Duke of Luxemburg, who´s a "Royal Highness", takes precendence before the Prince of Monaco. The Princess of Monaco, although wife of a royal head of state, has to curtsey to these Majesties.

"When Elizabeth had her Diamond Jubilee and she held a dinner for foreign monarchs there were protestations of horror that none of those monarchs bowed or curtsied to Elizabeth because, after all, "she is superior to them."

That´s not possible - Elizabeth II knows and respects very well protocol. And protocol, or "royal etiquette" forbids a Majesty to curtsey another majesty, which the Queen of Britain is. So, if, let´s say the Queen of Sweden would suddenly start to curtsey the british Queen, she´d be mystified, to say the least!
It´s another case when it come to Kings. They do actually bow (their head), but not because of the other person´s superority, but rather because of chivalry and act of courtesy

 

[Arrjann]

I think even the Grand Duke of Luxemburg, who´s a "Royal Highness", takes precendence before the Prince of Monaco. The Princess of Monaco, although wife of a royal head of state, has to curtsey to these Majesties.

Don't think the Princess of Monaco has to curtsey to Majesties, as she is the wife of a Sovereign. The same would apply to Grand Duchesses of Luxembourg (HRH) and they have never curtseyed to Majesties.

And yes: a Grand Duke takes precedence over Sovereign Princes.

 

[JR76]

originally posted by Iain

[The Princess of Monaco, although wife of a royal head of state, has to curtsey to these Majesties.
[/QUOTE]


Princess Charlene doesn't have to curtsey to any other royals just because she's the wife of a "mere" prince. She's the consort of a head of state and as such she's equal to all other consorts of head of states in the world. That she curtsies to just about anyone is another matter and she must either be misinformed or does it by choice.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[Mbruno]

originally posted by Iain

Nobility

Prince Rainier as a "Serene Highness" would never take precedence over a monarch, a "Majesty", which is the most highranking title we know of on the entire planet!

Wouldn't an "Imperial Majesty" outrank a "Majesty" ?

Anyway, there are no "Imperial Majesties" left in today's world other than the Emperor of Japan !

 

[wartenberg7]

Wouldn't an "Imperial Majesty" outrank a "Majesty" ?

Anyway, there are no "Imperial Majesties" left in today's world other than the Emperor of Japan !

Yes, they do. But both are "Majesties"!
That´s why the Empress of Japan sat on the far left side at Fabiola´s funeral, next to Margrethe II, the longest (royal) reigning monarch present.
But of course, a royal Majesty would never (and should not) courtsey an imperial one...!
At CPss Victoria´s wedding the CP of Japan was first adressed after the Majesties present at the speeches held during the banquet:
"Your Majesties, Your Imperial Highness, Your Royal Hignesses...."

 

[JR76]

Wouldn't an "Imperial Majesty" outrank a "Majesty" ?

Anyway, there are no "Imperial Majesties" left in today's world other than the Emperor of Japan !

In one of the "The year with the Royal family" programs made by SVT King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia got the question if any royals was to be considered more prominent than others upon which one of them answered (can't remember which one) that it's all down to the longevity of the reign of the monarch and nothing else.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[wartenberg7]

"Princess Charlene doesn't have to curtsey to any other royals just because she's the wife of a "mere" prince. She's the consort of a head of state and as such she's equal to all other consorts of head of states in the world. That she curtsies to just about anyone is another matter and she must either be misinformed or does it by choice."


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Well, perhaps she is. But her mother-in-law seemed to have been "misinformed", too. There are photos of both ladies curtseying other monarchs (Grace: Queen Ena of Spain; Charlene: Imper. Couple of Japan)
Princess Grace curtseys the royal couple of Persia:
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/c5/b5/f2/c5b5f21826b5f27f236af78fe2695143.jpg

Charlene: Elizabeth II: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/18/article-2146569-1328FB76000005DC-187_306x395.jpg

In one of the "The year with the Royal family" programs made by SVT King Carl Gustav and Queen Silvia got the question if any royals was to be considered more prominent than others upon which one of them answered (can't remember which one) that it's all down to the longevity of the reign of the monarch and nothing else.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Yes, among the Kings and Queens. But worldwide there is an Emperor.
If Empress Michiko was like all the other sovereigns present at Qu. Fabiola´s funeral, she (who even isn´t a reigning empress, but the wife of the emperor) would have sat in the 2nd row after King Harald and his sister!
I remember King Baudouin´s funeral: Although the imperial couple was only 4 years on the throne, they took precedence in the 1st row during the procession. An exception was made in the cathedral for the funeral service: There Elizabeth II occupied the chair the empress sat on last week, with the imperial couple sitting right next to her and Pr. Philip, followed again by the danish royal couple, the swedish one and so forth.
I guess this exception has been made because the british Queen occupied her throne in 1993 for about 40 years while the emperor was enthroned, as I mentioned earlier, just 4 years previous.

 

[Arrjann]

Yes, they do. But both are "Majesties"!
That´s why the Empress of Japan sat on the far left side at Fabiola´s funeral, next to Margrethe II, the longest (royal) reigning monarch present.

Actually, Queen Margrethe should have been seated on the most prominent seat. She was the highest ranking guest. Strictly speaking, all reigning Kings and Queens attending should have taken precedence over the Empress, as she is 'only' an Empress Consort.

 

[Pranter]

Re: Grace and Charlene....maybe because they are not royal by blood they felt they should or maybe they just did it to show respect.


LaRae

 

[KittyAtlanta]

^^^I'm with you, curtseying done from politeness. Charming...

 

[Arrjann]

Re: Grace and Charlene....maybe because they are not royal by blood they felt they should or maybe they just did it to show respect.


LaRae

Crown Princess Mette-Marit curtseys to 'everyone': she curtseyed to President Obama and the Duchess of Cornwall. I guess she does that out of respect.

 

[Iain]

originally posted by Iain

Nobility

Prince Rainier as a "Serene Highness" would never take precedence over a monarch, a "Majesty", which is the most highranking title we know of on the entire planet! So, when it comes to seating orders, the longest reigning King/ Queen will be placed at the most prominent seat, then the next longest reigning monarch and so on. I think even the Grand Duke of Luxemburg, who´s a "Royal Highness", takes precendence before the Prince of Monaco. The Princess of Monaco, although wife of a royal head of state, has to curtsey to these Majesties.

Prince Rainier was a monarch just like any king or queen.

"When Elizabeth had her Diamond Jubilee and she held a dinner for foreign monarchs there were protestations of horror that none of those monarchs bowed or curtsied to Elizabeth because, after all, "she is superior to them."

That´s not possible - Elizabeth II knows and respects very well protocol. And protocol, or "royal etiquette" forbids a Majesty to curtsey another majesty, which the Queen of Britain is. So, if, let´s say the Queen of Sweden would suddenly start to curtsey the british Queen, she´d be mystified, to say the least!
It´s another case when it come to Kings. They do actually bow (their head), but not because of the other person´s superority, but rather because of chivalry and act of courtesy

I didn't say Elizabeth expected the other monarchs to bow or curtsy to her. It was many members of the British public who expected it because they felt that their queen was superior to other monarchs.

 

[Iain]

Crown Princess Mette-Marit curtseys to 'everyone': she curtseyed to President Obama and the Duchess of Cornwall. I guess she does that out of respect.

That's just plain stupidity. Obama is not royal and Camilla is the same rank as Mette-Marit.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

That's just plain stupidity. Obama is not royal and Camilla is the same rank as Mette-Marit.

Curtsying all around could be called stupid. If Mette Marit wants to do it out of respect then I see no problem with it.
I feel the BRF are too full of themselves and this snub proves it, they are no better than the continental royals and need to stop acting like they are.

 

[Jacknch]

Why no one attended the funeral we will probably never know. My British friends have all said 'Fabiola - who was she?' That had no idea of who she was and so to them there is no issue as the foreign royals don't register in Britain or on the world stage as such - none of my friends and colleagues here knew that Belgium had a monarchy or that a Queen Consort had died - no coverage and no interest.

All my friends and family are made to know about royal families all over the world, seeing as I talk about them so much! More often than not someone asks me what's going on in the world of royalty, when is that royal wedding you were talking about etc etc Long before Queen Fabiola died but following the Abdication of King Albert, I told everyone that Belgium now had three living queens in existence - peoples' reactions are generally positive if I tell them interesting things.

 

[Iain]

[QUOTEXeniaCasaraghi;1732625=I feel the BRF are too full of themselves and this snub proves it, they are no better than the continental royals and need to stop acting like they are.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%.

 

[Molly2101]

It is a snub and if it is a real case of miscommunication between the FO and the Windsors as was reported by another forum member then that is bad.

Another chance to see if the BRF snub the Europeans will be for CP and Sofia's wedding in June next year. Sophie and Edward have been to Victoria and Madeleine's so it would make sense to send them, as it's likely going to be the last royal wedding for some time now as most others are married.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I'm sorry bUT why is it always Edward and Sophie, I have nothing g against them but shouldn't William and Kate start showing up to these weddings?

 

[muriel]

I'm sorry bUT why is it always Edward and Sophie, I have nothing g against them but shouldn't William and Kate start showing up to these weddings?

I would be surprised. In general, the BRF do not like to be seen fraternising publicly with other European royals. The senior / main line Windsors will only attend "major" events, like the inauguration of Willem-Alexander in the Netherlands, or meet other royals privately. The Wessex' have been allocated the responsibility for attending these European royal functions, so they will carry on doing so, unless told otherwise.

Further, W&K will have a young infant at the time of the Swedish wedding next year.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Neither Edward nor William will be available for Carl Philip's wedding though.


The wedding is set for the 13th June I believe - the same day as Trooping the Colour.


As both Edward and William are colonels of Household Division Regiments they will be expected at the Trooping.


It seems as if the Swedes chose a date on which they knew that the British Royal Family had their own event scheduled.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Well I still say they shouldn't even invite them, a little upset that Victoria and Daniel made the effort to go to William's wedding.