The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1061  
Old 11-07-2018, 01:24 AM
Claire's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,904
Hello

The problem is that many of the European events Edward and Sophie have actually been invited on a personal capacity as well - so the invite was to the Queen and another one for the Earl and Countess of Wessex as well. It is possible that the palace thought well since they are already going do we need to send someone as well. We have had Prince Charles or the Princess Royal attend as well as the Wessex's. It has happened. We will simply never really know.
I believe that Edward did attend some functions alone in the early 90's - but there was relatively little European weddings. Will have to check.
I personal believe that we have seen the end of the Wessex's attending the European celebrations - I was shocked and queried why they weren't at the 50th Anniversary of Prince Frederick of Denmark. I never received a reply, but was pretty much told that Edward understood his role. So yes, I expect to see Harry and Meghan and William and Kate at all of these events soon.
Reply With Quote
  #1062  
Old 11-07-2018, 05:20 AM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 15,658
The main difference between the BRF and certainly the Continental royals is that the Continental royals socialize among themselves as families. While the BRF socialize individually on a one to one basis with whomever they happen to be personal friends with.

Even if the various Continental countries are not that close, these family gatherings mean that the monarchs, the heirs and to a considerable extent the spares have plenty of opportunities to form bonds, which would otherwise not be that natural, should they have to wait for an official opportunity to meet.
Example: M&F have personal relations with the royal families of Spain and Monaco, even though these countries are not as close to Denmark as say a more neighboring country like the Netherlands.
Such relations stems very much from having met in an informal, festive setting, where they have been dancing, cracking jokes, talked children and been sitting in a lounge with the ties loosened, with a drink, chatting away and fixing the world situation - just like the rest of us do, when we are at parties.

It takes a lot longer, if it happens at all, to start personal friendships if you only meet occasionally at official events, where there are schedules to adhere to.
The only exception from the BRF are the Wessex.

The Continental royals hardly know William and Kate, or Harry and Meghan or for that matter Andrew, on a personal level. Because they rarely meet at anything but the occasional lunch or dinner in connection with an official event.
And now the Continental heirs are taking over. They know each other well, having met informally numerous times, but they don't know W&K, H&M or for that matter Charles and Camilla.
It's not my impression that W&K and M&H have formed bonds with their Continental colleagues of their generation, i.e. 30-55 year olds.

Okay, the Continental royals show up for jubilees and other major events in connection with the BRF. - Of course they show up, when they are invited.
However, I can't help picturing an image of say QMII standing with Queen Maxima and Queen Letizia in a corner at the reception afterwards, asking Letizia: "How is your youngest then? Still shy?" And Letizia answering: "Oh, she's having her first crush! On a singer in a boy band." With both Q. Maxima and QMII exclaiming: "How sweet!" - Because they know each other informally across the generations, having met on numerous occasions. And as a natural consequence when they meet, they catch up.
I fear that apart from Sophie of Wessex any other member of the BRF (perhaps apart from QEII herself) standing in that group would desperately go through the mental encyclopedia: Letizia's youngest, whas'her'name?

Also, the Continental royals visit QEII, and sometimes Charles and Camilla as well, when they happen to be in London unofficially. Of course they do that's common courtesy. It's after all QEII's turf they are on. - But as I understand it, it's a cup of tea or two, but hardly a sleepover where they are burning midnight oil catching up on the latest gossip. As we sometimes see with certainly the younger Continental royals, even if some of them have now become Regent Couples.

Perhaps that will change? I can easily imagine H&M, both being extrovert and newly married join and being welcomed within the Continental royal social circle. Without leaving the Wessex out of it. Why should they be left out?
W&K are (my impression) more introvert personally and they also start at an disadvantage, should they decide to join the social circle.
Let me explain: Continental heirs and spares join the royal social circle when they come of age, if not before. When they marry, their spouses are introduced into that circle shortly after. Neither William nor Kate have had that introduction, hence why they would IMO be at an disadvantage.
If ten years pass before Harry and Meghan join the social circle, (someone are bound to replace the Wessex eventually anyway) they will be at an disadvantage too.

It's akin to a street, where each house represents a monarchy and a royal family.
These families visit each other from time to time, complete with a dinner with white tablecloth and the best china on the table.
But apart from that most neighbors host regular BBQs in the back yard as well, where all are invited and most show up. - Except for one family, where usually only one of the sons and his wife show up.
And when that one family have a BBQ, they only invite selected members of the other families.
If you lived on that street, how would your personal relation with that one family be, compared to the other families?
- So if one of the younger sons of that family and his wife decides to join in, it will inevitably take a little more effort for them to become a part of this circle of neighborhood friends.
Reply With Quote
  #1063  
Old 05-28-2022, 01:54 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 8,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonacoRoyalFan View Post

No diplomacy involved. This isn’t a matter of diplomacy. This was just old friends meeting. The plans were cancelled. Happens all the time for anyone with friends, right?

Bigger question, as has been mentioned before, why the Swedish court even announced such a visit. I imagine it’s because of HMs advancing age and the reality that any such visit could possibly be their last with such an historic, iconic monarch and friend and cousin.
Sorry, but that is not how I think it works.

I can't imagine that the King of Sweden simply picks up the phone and asks "Cousin Lilibet" if he and his wife can stop by for tea next week when they are in London. Even if it is not an official visit arranged between governments, meetings like that are scheduled through official channels and both the Swedish King and the British Queen have state-funded organizations (namely the Swedish Royal Court and the Royal Households of the United Kingdom) that handle those matters. Apparently there was a misunderstanding or a miscommunication between those organizations, which produced the incident.

And I call it a "diplomatic incident" because it involves "old friends" or "cousins" who are nonetheless also Heads of State, so a diplomatic relationship is always implied, even if it is not between the British and Swedish governments in this case, at least between the respective households of each of the two monarchs, which, as I said, are also state organizations themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #1064  
Old 05-28-2022, 02:05 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,983
In my opinion it was unprofessional of the Swedish Court to publicly mention "a possible visit" before is was seemingly confirmed. The Queen always goes to Balmoral this time of year so IMO a meeting was unlikely to be possible. I don't think it can be a diplomatic incident until we know for sure that what both Heads of State, governments, diplomats knew about it.
Reply With Quote
  #1065  
Old 05-28-2022, 02:47 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,158
This incident hasn't even made the news in the UK. I hadn't heard about it until I saw it mentioned on here, and I can't imagine that the Swedish media are making it headline news either. It certainly isn't a diplomatic incident, and I doubt that the governments even know about it.

It's a bit odd that the Swedish royal website - was it the website? - mentioned that there *wouldn't* be a meet-up, but it doesn't seem that one was ever planned.

Incidentally, I love ABBA and am rather jealous of Carl Gustaf and Silvia for getting to see their avatar concert :-) , and I'm surprised that none of the British royals wanted to go to the concert as well, but I suppose we can't all like the same music!
Reply With Quote
  #1066  
Old 05-28-2022, 05:39 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 4,203
What really happened was that Margareta Thorgren (Head of the Royal Press Office) told Svensk Damtidning (a Swedish high profile gossip magazine with much focus on royals) on April 8 that the King and Queen were very keen on meeting Queen Elizabeth privately during their UK visit in May. She never said that it was a done deal.
Svensk Damtidning then came back and asked her if the meeting was going to happen and reported on May 27 that Margareta had replied that it wouldn't happen because of Queen Elizabeth's health issues.

Links below:
May 8 https://www.svenskdam.se/kungligt/ku...zabeth/8373004
May 27https://www.svenskdam.se/kungligt/ku...skedet/8527009
Reply With Quote
  #1067  
Old 05-28-2022, 06:42 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 8,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
What really happened was that Margareta Thorgren (Head of the Royal Press Office) told Svensk Damtidning (a Swedish high profile gossip magazine with much focus on royals) on April 8 that the King and Queen were very keen on meeting Queen Elizabeth privately during their UK visit in May. She never said that it was a done deal.
Svensk Damtidning then came back and asked her if the meeting was going to happen and reported on May 27 that Margareta had replied that it wouldn't happen because of Queen Elizabeth's health issues.

Links below:
May 8 https://www.svenskdam.se/kungligt/ku...zabeth/8373004
May 27https://www.svenskdam.se/kungligt/ku...skedet/8527009
It looks like the confusion came mostly from the Swedish side. First Margreta Thorgren announced that the King and Queen Silvia would like to meet Queen Elizabeth II before confirming with the British if such meeting would be possible, which is a big "no-no" to me. Second, when the Swedes were probably told the meeting would not be possible, probably because the Queen was already scheduled to travel to Balmoral on that day, Mrs Thorgren, I assume, came up with Queen Elizabeth's health issues as an excuse to save face.

I think it would have been somewhat undiplomatic and serious if the British had indeed told the Swedes that the Queen would not be available for health reasons when, in fact, she had taken a long travel to Balmoral on the same day. I prefer to think that is not what happened though and go with my interpretation above.

We cannot know for sure what really happened however, unless we had access to the messages that were exchanged between the two royal households.
Reply With Quote
  #1068  
Old 05-28-2022, 06:49 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 13,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
In my opinion it was unprofessional of the Swedish Court to publicly mention "a possible visit" before is was seemingly confirmed. The Queen always goes to Balmoral this time of year so IMO a meeting was unlikely to be possible. I don't think it can be a diplomatic incident until we know for sure that what both Heads of State, governments, diplomats knew about it.

The Queen does not always go to Balmoral at this time of the year. She goes to Balmoral at the end of July and stays until early October but she doesn't normally go in late May - due to the fact that she is normally undertaking engagements.

She may take a weekend away to Sandringham but that only started when Philip moved there.

Her normal perambulations were the week at BP, weekends at Windsor other than for late July (used to be early August so that the family was in London for the Queen Mother's birthday) until early October to Balmoral and mid-December to early-mid February at Sandringham.

She normally does a week, in July, in Scotland staying at Holyrood.
Reply With Quote
  #1069  
Old 05-28-2022, 08:02 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,983
She has stayed at Balmoral at this time previously, the BBC and many other UK media outlets reported the same.

She visited in 2019 the same weekend as this, accompanied by Wessexes

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...-news-pictures

In 2021 she went to mourn Philip's death
https://www.hellomagazine.com/homes/...ueen-victoria/

I'm not looking for lots of other years but seems to be a pattern and no reason the likes of the BBC (who presumably got it from the Palace) would lie about that. I'm sure the royals visit Balmoral and Sandringham Estates more than we know - they have Craigowan Lodge and Wood Farm they can use when the "big house" can't be opened up or is open to the public.

I assume she goes this time in May as it takes in the late May bank holiday and half term.
Reply With Quote
  #1070  
Old 07-04-2022, 10:12 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
The BRF actually is in regular contact with, and maintains close personal relations with most of the European royal families. They just do it privately, away from the glares of the camera. There have been plenty of examples of this: the recent revelation that W-A and Max had dined with the Queen at Windsor in June, the revelation in 2012 that Silvia had visited C&C at Highgrove...... Silvia, Beatrix and Margarethe have all been regular visitors to see the Queen privately, as have the NRF.

My sense is that the reticence for senior British royals to appear in public at events with other European royals goes back to the early part of the last century, perhaps more specifically, WW1, and the rebranding of the BRF to the Windsors. A number of the other European royal families were seen to be too close to each other, and alienated from their own people, leading eventually to a lot of the monarchies falling.
Precisely, the BRF don’t feel the need to show their private relationships to anyone because it’s just that private. The BRF simply prefer to do things privately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Indeed, I suppose that what may have been meant is that after WWII the trend that royals marry other royals has stopped. In Britain that was already the case since WWI (save two exceptions). So the family ties will be less close, which perhaps could result in a relationship that is less close.
Precisely just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks for clarifying.

However, you don't have to go that far back for the royals to be related at the moment: the king of Belgium and grand duke of Luxembourg are cousins; the queen of Denmark and king of Sweden are cousins. The former king and queen of Spain are brother-in-law and sister(-in-law) of the former Greek king and queen (the one being the sister of the queen of Denmark).

However, the trend is clear, nonetheless, most of the 'continental royals' (especially the Scandinavians and more in general the (former) crown princely couples still have (rather) close relationships with each other - just no longer the expectation that they marry each other
The Benelux royals Luxembourg and Belgium have close geographic and historic ties as well as the fact that King Philippe of Belgium’s aunt was the mother of Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg so you can’t compare their relationships to the British Royals. Not to mention, the Benelux monarchies are Catholic.
Reply With Quote
  #1071  
Old 07-04-2022, 10:45 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 8,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1 View Post
The Benelux royals Luxembourg and Belgium have close geographic and historic ties as well as the fact that King Philippe of Belgium’s aunt was the mother of Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg so you can’t compare their relationships to the British Royals. Not to mention, the Benelux monarchies are Catholic.
Welcome to TRF!

A small detail, the Dutch monarchy (the 'NE' in Benelux) is NOT Catholic but Protestant - even though some members of the family are Roman Catholic but the king and his daughters (just like the reigning queens before him) are protestant. The Anglican church is much closer to the Roman Catholic church in terms of liturgy etc than the (Calvinist) Protestant Church of the Netherlands. Imho, that doesn't make much of a difference in terms of the mutual relationships between the families.
Reply With Quote
  #1072  
Old 07-04-2022, 11:26 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Welcome to TRF!

A small detail, the Dutch monarchy (the 'NE' in Benelux) is NOT Catholic but Protestant - even though some members of the family are Roman Catholic but the king and his daughters (just like the reigning queens before him) are protestant. The Anglican church is much closer to the Roman Catholic church in terms of liturgy etc than the (Calvinist) Protestant Church of the Netherlands. Imho, that doesn't make much of a difference in terms of the mutual relationships between the families.
Thank you for welcoming me, I confused the term Benelux with Belgium and the Low Counties (Southern Netherlands, Netherlands etc), my point was referring to the fact you made reference to the Belgian and Luxembourgian Royals being close and I was stating something you might have forgotten in hindsight about the relationship between the two states, the degree of kinship between the families are far more recent or immediate than with the BRF and I made reference to religion (Catholicism) being something Luxembourg and Belgium royals have in common apart from their close kinship. I wasn’t actually referring to the Dutch royals.
Reply With Quote
  #1073  
Old 08-10-2022, 01:59 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Not so that royals hanging out together is a thing of the past. The Scandinavian royals are actually great friends with each other and spend both private time in each other's countries and also join in on public occasions, celebrations of birthdays for example.

And I've seen group photos of all the continental heirs/monarchs and their spouses joining together for outings on occasions and getting on like a house on fire. Felipe, Leti, Philippe, Mathilde, Frederik, Mary, Willem, Maxima etc. Outside shots, like they'd all been for a walk together on one or two of them. No BRF reps there though, perhaps because of the age disparities, or refusal of any invitation, or perhaps weren't invited.

And an occasional lunch in London and a three day tour by the Cambridges of Scandi countries (and Harry's two days in Denmark) isn't evidence IMO of any strong bonding between the BRF and others. When I see how warm and close other royal families are with each other I just think it's very sad that for various reason the BRF has allowed ties to fray.
You can’t compare with the Scandinavian royals because they are much more closely related, geographically and culturally connected as well as historically hence the closeness. I think the other poster was referring to the British Royals in terms of royals hanging out with other royals is a thing of the past.
Reply With Quote
  #1074  
Old 08-10-2022, 02:18 PM
Blog Real's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 9,796
I think BRF likes to keep some distance from continental royalty. But there is also some proximity between BRF and other European royal families.
But BRF also has no neighboring monarchy. The same is true of the Spanish royal family.
The royal families where there is the most proximity are between those of the Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg) and between those of Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway and Sweden).
__________________
My blogs about monarchies
Reply With Quote
  #1075  
Old 08-10-2022, 02:37 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I think BRF likes to keep some distance from continental royalty. But there is also some proximity between BRF and other European royal families.
But BRF also has no neighboring monarchy. The same is true of the Spanish royal family.
The royal families where there is the most proximity are between those of the Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg) and between those of Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway and Sweden).
The last part should be highlighted because a lot of people forget this.
Reply With Quote
  #1076  
Old 08-17-2022, 03:29 PM
Iain's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Welcome to TRF!

A small detail, the Dutch monarchy (the 'NE' in Benelux) is NOT Catholic but Protestant - even though some members of the family are Roman Catholic but the king and his daughters (just like the reigning queens before him) are protestant. The Anglican church is much closer to the Roman Catholic church in terms of liturgy etc than the (Calvinist) Protestant Church of the Netherlands. Imho, that doesn't make much of a difference in terms of the mutual relationships between the families.
Although they have traditionally belonged to the Dutch Reformed Church (now the Protestant Church of the Netherlands) there is actually no requirement for the Dutch monarch to belong to any particular Church. The King is said to often attend Catholic Mass with his wife, and hardlly ever attends a Protestant service. The church his mother attended, although Protestant, is very ritualistic with an altar instead of a table, and uses Catholic terms. Queen Juliana is said to have attended a different church every Sunday while Queen Wilhelmina attended Catholic Mass when in Catholic districts. If the King, or his heir, decided to convert to Catholicism there is no law to stop them.
Reply With Quote
  #1077  
Old 08-18-2022, 02:03 AM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 3,354
OT for this thread, but Q.Wilhelmina was definitely not known for her support for Roman-Catholics (usually a stronger word is used for her feelings towards that religion )
That said, religion is indeed no requirement in the NL for the monarch.
__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #1078  
Old 08-18-2022, 05:49 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 12,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
OT for this thread, but Q.Wilhelmina was definitely not known for her support for Roman-Catholics (usually a stronger word is used for her feelings towards that religion )
That said, religion is indeed no requirement in the NL for the monarch.

After WWII Queen Wilhelmina became very mild to Roman-Catholics. She even had an intensive and quite personal correspondence with Pope John XXIII (1958-1963) which she regared as a "friend'.
Reply With Quote
  #1079  
Old 10-25-2022, 01:25 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,098
To the people who mentioned the Japanese Empress attending Queen Fabiola’s funeral, the Empress was not only a monarch/consort attending but a personal friend and the late King Baudoin sent messages to her from Emperor Akihito her husband when she was studying in Belgium. Anyways, most of the continental royals like Luxembourg, Belgium and Liechtenstein share very close ties so that’s why they are close, they aren’t close because they are royals but simply because they are connected immediately by blood, marriage and geography whereas the British royals don’t share this.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, elizabeth ii, european royalty, european union, queen elizabeth ii


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
abdullah ii africa albert prince consort all tags america arcadie arcadie claret austria british royal family camilla caribbean caroline charles iii claret congo current events danish royal family death denmark duarte pio dubai expo duchess of kent duke of cambridge elizabeth ii emperor naruhito empress masako garsenda genealogy general news grace kelly grimaldi hamdan bin ahmed history india introduction jordan royal family king charles king edward iii king henry iii king philippe king willem-alexander leopold ier matrilineal monaco monarchy mountbatten need help official visit order of precedence portugal prince albert monaco prince andrew prince charles princess of orange queen camilla queen elizabeth queen ena of spain queen margrethe ii queen mathilde queen maxima queen victoria republics restoration royal initials spain spanish royal family state visit switzerland uae visit


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:01 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2022
Jelsoft Enterprises