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  #521  
Old 06-22-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
what is clear is that initially the royal foundation was going to include them 4. they 4 showed up at a large event to comment on how the royal foundation was going to work just after meghan and harry got engaged. the plan was for them to work together. now, only months after, we are seeing a 180 degree change of direction, so it is clear something has happened in the last 18 months that has prompted the need for the cambridges and the sussexes to go solo, separate ways. everyone has their own view on what may have happened, but i think we can all agree that 4 'heads' is too much and that maybe one or several couldn't work with one another anymore.
On the whole I don't disagree with you. But a few observations -- I remember an interview here in the USA w/the first ED, Nick Booth, who at the time of William and Catherine's wedding said that he had been tasked with finding a new name to accommodate what was then a three-some. A ridiculous task. Harry was clearly the third wheel.

William, much like his father, is going to be King some day. This is just a natural progression.

Could it have been handled better by the "men in gray suits"? Absolutely.
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  #522  
Old 06-22-2019, 09:34 AM
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Harry invested his own money into this foundation. He started it with his brother and he is now walking away from it. That is a big deal. It also says a lot about where they are both at in their lives where this is apparently needed.

I was on the page of the four of their power combined would be a great thing for the foundation. Yes William will be king but honestly that could be 20 years from now. This split didn't need to happen now and in the middle of Meghan's maternity leave. It is all so rushed.

So yes I do believe a bit of fall out between the four occurred and it is the reason this happened at the speed it did. Time will tell how the foundations work. The Royal Foundation will have to make adjustments and the Sussexes will be starting from scratch.

That said the PR around this was poorly handled. This is a common theme and KP and SR need to tighten that up.
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  #523  
Old 06-22-2019, 09:56 AM
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I think some folks need to go back and read/watch on how the four of them was going to be working together under the umbrella of the Royal Foundation. Something went down behind the scenes and now their splitting and the Sussexes will be forming their own foundation to pretty much do the same thing the Royal Foundation is doing. They could’ve stayed under the Royal Foundation to do this, but it wouldn’t work if family relations aren’t on solid footing.

I think the reason why the PR side of things were handled badly is because of personal family matters. If that hurdle wasn’t in the way and this was all about William’s preparation for the future - the message about all of this would’ve been made extremely clear last year. The press would’ve been producing leading headlines about William and Catherine preparing to become the next Prince and Princess of Wales. That didn’t happen and the hint of a bump in relations where picked up.

Although two high profile royal foundations aren’t going to produce the best Royal Public Relations. Those royal correspondents, reporters and editors are going to have a field day with this and (I believe) BP and KP are going to have a interesting time trying to manage it all.
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  #524  
Old 06-22-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ACO View Post
Harry invested his own money into this foundation. He started it with his brother and he is now walking away from it. That is a big deal. It also says a lot about where they are both at in their lives where this is apparently needed.

I was on the page of the four of their power combined would be a great thing for the foundation. Yes William will be king but honestly that could be 20 years from now. This split didn't need to happen now and in the middle of Meghan's maternity leave. It is all so rushed.

So yes I do believe a bit of fall out between the four occurred and it is the reason this happened at the speed it did. Time will tell how the foundations work. The Royal Foundation will have to make adjustments and the Sussexes will be starting from scratch.

That said the PR around this was poorly handled. This is a common theme and KP and SR need to tighten that up.


While I agree the PR doesn’t look good- the story they’re selling doesn’t work- I hesitate to put too much responsibility on their team for this. They got put in a bad position really. Off the top of my head- I can’t think of a good way to sell what is imo clearly a rushed, unplanned dissolution of them working together. If the Sussexes and Cambridges felt this needed to happen right now- then good optics options are limited to me.

The original plan seems to have been for the Foundation to be the 4 of them for the foreseeable future. Maybe until William was The heir, maybe until he became king. Who knows.

Something changed behind the scenes-probably issues between the 4 of them- leaving their team in the position of trying to spin this as a natural progression that was always planned at this time. Which is hard to swallow. Rather than- there were issues of that they understandably didn’t want to discuss publicly.
  #525  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:08 AM
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Yeah, the official statement is hard to swallow, but I hope all is well now. Hopefully they go on to doing great things with their foundations and I hope we see these couples (publicly) working together again from time to time. I think the key is for everyone to see some harmony back in their relationship and working relationship. That solid foundation needs to be felt again.
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  #526  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I think some folks need to go back and read/watch on how the four of them was going to be working together under the umbrella of the Royal Foundation. Something went down behind the scenes and now their splitting and the Sussexes will be forming their own foundation to pretty much do the same thing the Royal Foundation is doing. They could’ve stayed under the Royal Foundation to do this, but it wouldn’t work if family relations aren’t on solid footing.

I think the reason why the PR side of things were handled badly is because of personal family matters. If that hurdle wasn’t in the way and this was all about William’s preparation for the future - the message about all of this would’ve been made extremely clear last year. The press would’ve been producing leading headlines about William and Catherine preparing to become the next Prince and Princess of Wales. That didn’t happen and the hint of a bump in relations where picked up.

Although two high profile royal foundations aren’t going to produce the best Royal Public Relations. Those royal correspondents, reporters and editors are going to have a field day with this and (I believe) BP and KP are going to have a interesting time trying to manage it all.


My thoughts exactly. That’s basically what I was trying to say. You articulated it better though.

What I was trying to say is the PR is difficult to manage due to the personal family aspects of this. I can’t really fault their team much because it’s not their fault they’re clearly having to reverse course, and the message they put out last year is not the one they’re stuck trying to spin this year.

As you said- if the plan really was separate offices, separate foundation this soon after Harry got married due to both men settling down and their different roles within the royal family - they’d have put that message out last year. But they didn’t.

Eventually, separate offices, a separate foundation makes sense to me- William will be king someday- but right now, it seems less about a natural progression and more about personal issues of some kind.
  #527  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Erin9 View Post
While I agree the PR doesn’t look good- the story they’re selling doesn’t work- I hesitate to put too much responsibility on their team for this. They got put in a bad position really. Off the top of my head- I can’t think of a good way to sell what is imo clearly a rushed, unplanned dissolution of them working together. If the Sussexes and Cambridges felt this needed to happen right now- then good optics options are limited to me.

The original plan seems to have been for the Foundation to be the 4 of them for the foreseeable future. Maybe until William was The heir, maybe until he became king. Who knows.

Something changed behind the scenes-probably issues between the 4 of them- leaving their team in the position of trying to spin this as a natural progression that was always planned at this time. Which is hard to swallow. Rather than- there were issues of that they understandably didn’t want to discuss publicly.
I agree, at the heart of this seems to be an issue in the personal relationships. It is sad that relationships that had worked well for all these years are not any more. We don't know the truth of what is going on, but something seems deeply amiss. I am sad for William and Harry as they seemed to have had a great bond, and Harry and Catherine seemed to get on so well as well.
  #528  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I agree, at the heart of this seems to be an issue in the personal relationships. It is sad that relationships that had worked well for all these years are not any more. We don't know the truth of what is going on, but something seems deeply amiss. I am sad for William and Harry as they seemed to have had a great bond, and Harry and Catherine seemed to get on so well as well.

Royal siblings have always had difficult relationships over the centuries, not only in Britain but throughout Europe. Being a younger brother of a king or future king is an inherently awkward and sometimes uncomfortable position. In William and Harry's case, however, I agree that there seems to some personal issue in play other than each of them simply trying to find their natural places in the Firm.
  #529  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I agree, at the heart of this seems to be an issue in the personal relationships. It is sad that relationships that had worked well for all these years are not any more. We don't know the truth of what is going on, but something seems deeply amiss. I am sad for William and Harry as they seemed to have had a great bond, and Harry and Catherine seemed to get on so well as well.
Have they worked well or have they just not worked that much? Let’s be honest, for most of the time the Royal Foundation has been in place, none of them were full time working royals. Other than Heads Together, what did they work on together so much? Maybe now that they are working more, they simply find their styles to be different.

And certainly, Tim Shipman, who is generally more well regarded than typical RRs, reported that issues between Cambridges and Sussexes have much to do with the attention Sussexes are getting and various courtiers behind the scene.
  #530  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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If you all think back to the forum meeting when Kate was pregnant with Louis...the four of them were asked about everyone always getting along...Kate and Meghan both you could tell reacted to that and the boys were open about the disagreements on decisions.

To me this is the indicator of what happened...they have different visions and roles in the family that no longer mesh with the original foundation direction/goals.

This is no different than any family business IMO. If you have never been privy to working for/with or directly involved with a family business this is not uncommon.


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  #531  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I agree, at the heart of this seems to be an issue in the personal relationships. It is sad that relationships that had worked well for all these years are not any more. We don't know the truth of what is going on, but something seems deeply amiss. I am sad for William and Harry as they seemed to have had a great bond, and Harry and Catherine seemed to get on so well as well.
I think that is the key though... it seemed. We have no idea. It is easier when you are the odd one out. Harry was playing tag along. The third wheel so to speak. I am sure things were easier for all just to include him. Though we don't know any of their true feelings about it. We just assume and hope because we liked the image of it all. Harry is married with a family of his own now. The entire dynamic has shifted.

I do blame their houses for the crappy spin. This didn't just sneak up on them. They had time to come up with someone better to put out despite we all knowing it likely wasn't really the truth. Saying things like "The Cambridges will be restricted" when Charles is the actual next in line and has done plenty is a bit silly. It just caused people to be more suspicious then they already were.

I get they trying to be as PC as possible but they still need to do better because honestly this is just the beginning.
  #532  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
Have they worked well or have they just not worked that much? Let’s be honest, for most of the time the Royal Foundation has been in place, none of them were full time working royals. Other than Heads Together, what did they work on together so much? Maybe now that they are working more, they simply find their styles to be different.

And certainly, Tim Shipman, who is generally more well regarded than typical RRs, reported that issues between Cambridges and Sussexes have much to do with the attention Sussexes are getting and various courtiers behind the scene.



I don't buy the version that "issues between Cambridges and Sussexes have much to do with the attention Sussexes are getting". That version implies the Cambridges would be either jealous of or fell threatened by Harry's popularity, which is nonsense, not least because William and Catherine's future position is 100 % secure (short of the UK becoming a republic !). William will inherit the Crown and most of the family's fortune/assets, and he and his family will be only getting increased attention from now on while the Sussexes will naturally fade over time. So what would be the logic of being bothered by the attention the Sussexes are getting now (most of which seems to be negative attention recently BTW ) ?
  #533  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
Have they worked well or have they just not worked that much? Let’s be honest, for most of the time the Royal Foundation has been in place, none of them were full time working royals. Other than Heads Together, what did they work on together so much?
Ding ding ding!!!! This is exactly the thought that keeps coming to mind for me. Clearly, at least some in their team truly thought it would be feasible to keep everything together in one KP office, in one foundation, but based on a track record of those entities serving the needs of three half-time working royals and their charitable interests, not four full-time ones suddenly thinking much more seriously about their roles and how to find their own ways to make a positive difference. Whatever the intention, it seems to me that the idea of all four staying together under one umbrella was only ever a pipe dream. Of course it fell apart. It was fundamentally unsustainable, no matter what personal ups or downs the brothers might experience.

The biggest problem here isn’t the PR (although it is bad) or the lack of one flashy foundation having more heft (seriously, if you think that was a real possibility, I’ve got some beautiful Wyoming seaside property to sell you), but their inability to read the writing on the wall sooner.
  #534  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't buy the version that "issues between Cambridges and Sussexes have much to do with the attention Sussexes are getting". That version implies the Cambridges would be either jealous of or fell threatened by Harry's popularity, which is nonsense, not least because William and Catherine's future position is 100 % secure (short of the UK becoming a republic !). William will inherit the Crown and most of the family's fortune/assets, and he and his family will be only getting increased attention from now on while the Sussexes will naturally fade over time. So what would be the logic of being bothered by the attention the Sussexes are getting now (most of which seems to be negative attention recently BTW ) ?
Visceral reactions have nothing to do with intellectual analysis of situation. I could go into the history of an heir being insecure with attention others get, but that would be off topic in this thread.
  #535  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:22 AM
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To me this is the indicator of what happened...they have different visions and roles in the family that no longer mesh with the original foundation direction/goals.
This makes the most sense. We all know that too many cooks spoil the broth. It was easy to have a foundation for William and Harry when they both had other professions that kept them busy. The foundation focused on their charitable endeavors. Just like when I lived at home, my mother did all the cooking and all I had to do was show up and eat it.

Now both men are married with families and have joined the ranks of full time working royals. Both families now can commit to a more in depth involvement with their charities and incentives and being more involved means they have different ideas and visions how things should go. After I married and had my own children, my mother and I could never agree to how to cook a turkey from that time forward. We did things differently. I loved my mom but if we had to live together for an extended period of time under one roof, I think we'd kill each other off.

Disagreements and different ideas and visions of how to do things happen as siblings grow older and establish their own ways and means of doing things. It is actually a healthy thing. Both the Cambridges and the Sussexes are now on the path of standing on their own two feet and starting to shape their own futures. Its called maturity. William and Harry will always be brothers and love and respect each other but that doesn't mean they have to agree on everything as if they shared a brain.

Life is change and for the most part, changes aren't easy. Growing pains happen.
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  #536  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:22 AM
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I think that is the key though... it seemed. We have no idea. It is easier when you are the odd one out. Harry was playing tag along. The third wheel so to speak. I am sure things were easier for all just to include him. Though we don't know any of their true feelings about it. We just assume and hope because we liked the image of it all. Harry is married with a family of his own now. The entire dynamic has shifted.

I do blame their houses for the crappy spin. This didn't just sneak up on them. They had time to come up with someone better to put out despite we all knowing it likely wasn't really the truth. Saying things like "The Cambridges will be restricted" when Charles is the actual next in line and has done plenty is a bit silly. It just caused people to be more suspicious then they already were.

I get they trying to be as PC as possible but they still need to do better because honestly this is just the beginning.
I do agree with that. Sometimes adding a new person can shift the entire dynamic much more than just adding a new person as others no longer see themselves in the same role as before.

And yes, KP could’ve handled this far better. I understand they are dealing with a lot of changes, but they’ve had months. Back when the Cambridge and Sussexes households split, it was a senior advisor to the Cambridges that was put in charge of reviewing the structure, so they certainly had control of the situation and KP press team would’ve been, or should’ve been, made aware of whts coming. And certainly, if they needed more time to prepare, they could’ve asked for it. After all, it is the same office handling this.

Ultimately, I do think it’s down to the fact that both couple are very different people with different strategies, which the reports from prior years already gave an indication to. It’s odd the strategy is consistently listed as a risk. Perhaps what the Foundation was trying to cover was too broad as they all had their own areas other than Heads Together.
  #537  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't buy the version that "issues between Cambridges and Sussexes have much to do with the attention Sussexes are getting". That version implies the Cambridges would be either jealous of or fell threatened by Harry's popularity, which is nonsense, not least because William and Catherine's future position is 100 % secure (short of the UK becoming a republic !). William will inherit the Crown and most of the family's fortune/assets, and he and his family will be only getting increased attention from now on while the Sussexes will naturally fade over time. So what would be the logic of being bothered by the attention the Sussexes are getting now (most of which seems to be negative attention recently BTW ) ?
I agree that The Cambridges future role is secured (for now) but we have zero idea how any of these people will be seen in the future. William will likely become king in 15 to 25 years if Charles is blessed with the health of his parents. That is a lot of time and A LOT can happen in this ever changing world.

Now I don't believe all that fodder of jealousy between camps but I don't think it isn't out of the realm to believe courtiers and such are worried about a rivalry of sorts and are trying to be mindful of it. People make a lot of assumptions with these four but we frankly don't know.

A lot will change when Her Majesty is no longer with us and until then we can't even begin to guess. So for now the family being seen as a united front is the most important thing. Therefore if splitting the foundation will improve their relationships then it is a short term headache for long term prosperity.
  #538  
Old 06-22-2019, 11:45 AM
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I do agree with that. Sometimes adding a new person can shift the entire dynamic much more than just adding a new person as others no longer see themselves in the same role as before.

And yes, KP could’ve handled this far better. I understand they are dealing with a lot of changes, but they’ve had months. Back when the Cambridge and Sussexes households split, it was a senior advisor to the Cambridges that was put in charge of reviewing the structure, so they certainly had control of the situation and KP press team would’ve been, or should’ve been, made aware of whts coming.

Ultimately, I do think it’s down to the fact that both couple are very different people with different strategies, which the reports from prior years already gave an indication to. It’s odd the strategy is consistently listed as a risk. Perhaps what the Foundation was trying to cover was too broad as they all had their own areas other than Heads Together.


I’m not really sure there ever was a believable way to sell this well. Certainly not in the space of the few months since the offices were announced to be splitting. That ship sailed a long time ago imo.

If they wanted to make this look planned all along - the message needed to be that way going all the way back a good 1.5 year ago when they had the chance to play the- things are changing card and make it look believable. It would have been pretty credible- both brothers being married, William clearly stepping more duties for HM and Charles. A split then would have worked with far fewer rumors imo. Now- it’s a problem.

I assume 1.5 years ago both couples wanted to try and make this work- and presumably thought they still could. Once they started the Fab 4 narrative, walking it back anytime soon was going to be a problem. And I really can’t blame the PR team for laying that groundwork out if that was the decision of the 4 bosses. Working together was their call. Not working together now is their call. Though it would be interesting to know HM’s and Charles’ thoughts on this. Presumably they see the need for a split too.
  #539  
Old 06-22-2019, 12:03 PM
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I’m not really sure there ever was a believable way to sell this well. Certainly not in the space of the few months since the offices were announced to be splitting. That ship sailed a long time ago imo.

If they wanted to make this look planned all along - the message needed to be that way going all the way back a good 1.5 year ago when they had the chance to play the- things are changing card and make it look believable. It would have been pretty credible- both brothers being married, William clearly stepping more duties for HM and Charles. A split then would have worked with far fewer rumors imo. Now- it’s a problem.

I assume 1.5 years ago both couples wanted to try and make this work- and presumably thought they still could. Once they started the Fab 4 narrative, walking it back anytime soon was going to be a problem. And I really can’t blame the PR team for laying that groundwork out if that was the decision of the 4 bosses. Working together was their call. Not working together now is their call. Though it would be interesting to know HM’s and Charles’ thoughts on this. Presumably they see the need for a split too.
Not necessarily. It certainly would’ve been more believable to say this is a reflection of new structure of the new households. I don’t doubt they intended to work together to some extend, but that was when their offices are together and all at KP. I don’t think most people thought Sussexes office would be at BP initially, but it seemed funding played a big part in it. Until that point, all of the KP staff was funded by Duchy of Cornwall, but the current state of the BRF is certainly an anomaly. Duchy of Cornwall wasn’t intended to support so many working royals. Frankly, I think it would’ve been better to split the foundation back when the households split. Instead of the drip drip drip.
  #540  
Old 06-22-2019, 12:23 PM
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Not necessarily. It certainly would’ve been more believable to say this is a reflection of new structure of the new households. I don’t doubt they intended to work together to some extend, but that was when their offices are together and all at KP. I don’t think most people thought Sussexes office would be at BP initially, but it seemed funding played a big part in it. Until that point, all of the KP staff was funded by Duchy of Cornwall, but the current state of the BRF is certainly an anomaly. Duchy of Cornwall wasn’t intended to support so many working royals. Frankly, I think it would’ve been better to split the foundation back when the households split. Instead of the drip drip drip.


I agree that it probably would have been better to just announce the separation of offices and foundation at the same time. Just rip the bandaid off all at once and be done with it. Why they didn’t is a good question. I have no idea. Unless they were still trying to salvage the foundation as is.

But- it still wasn’t going to play well in the media no matter what. It was already too late imo. Reversing course on the Fab 4 narrative that they’d put into play such a short time ago was going to be problematic. The RF has a reputation for forward thinking. This kind of turnaround smacks of internal issues forcing a change- not a long planned decision.

The time to announce upcoming structural changes and make it sound good was around the time Meghan joined the family. Not after they’d made it clear she was joining the foundation and making it sound like everything (including their joint offices) was staying the same, just with one more person.
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