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  #1341  
Old 10-26-2018, 08:36 AM
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Royal Orders are part of the royal uniform. The whole idea is for the royals to be properly dressed in these regalias for State and Ceremonial Occasions. I prefer the way other foreign royals make sure their senior royals are properly dressed for State Events than the way the British leave you naked of any Order (jewels aside) for a significant amount of time.
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  #1342  
Old 10-26-2018, 08:44 AM
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A full blown white tie event is always one of my favorite things to look forward to as everything comes out in grand style for those. They just are so few and far between these days.

Maybe someday, eventually there will be a return to the more formal way of doing things with more white tie events and people actually reveling in getting dressed "to the nines" once again for evenings out to the opera or the theater as in days gone by. Sadly, I don't think its going to happen in my lifetime.
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  #1343  
Old 10-26-2018, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Princess Michael does not carry out engagements on behalf of the BRF. This might explain why.
Possibly, but I'd still say she's done enough over 40 years to merit it and that's if being a working royal is even the criteria which we don't know. Her husband isn't officially a working royal either and the Queen has showered a fair few honours on him over the years.
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  #1344  
Old 10-26-2018, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Yes, it's very odd, that poster saw no problem in Diana and Katherine Kent getting RFOs the same year they married but Catherine after six years hasn't earned it? Now I'm wondering what secret magic Diana and Katherine did in just a couple months to 'earn' it. Though Diana and Katherine were/are blue-bloods so maybe they weren't expected to 'earn' it, it was just de jure like with the young Anne, Margaret, and Alexandra.

As we know that Katherine (Kent), Brigitte (Gloucester) and Diana received their RFO's shortly after their marriages into the BRF, I doubt their work was being taken into consideration.



I'm still believe that after the divorces of the 1990's, that QEII is being very cautious as to when she bestows the family order. She might be waiting to see if the marriages will last.
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  #1345  
Old 10-26-2018, 10:28 AM
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Agreed.

I also wonder, and this is a serious question, for those who think Catherine didn't "deserve" the RFO, when do you think she would have "deserved" it? What, in your opinion, should the criteria be? And do any of the royal ladies who have received the RFO actually match those criteria?

Obviously, the Queen has her own reasons which are nobody else's business, and that's good enough for me, but I'm always perplexed when this discussion comes up by comments that indicate someone doesn't deserve the RFO, like there's some actual standard we could apply consistently for who gets what and when.
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  #1346  
Old 10-26-2018, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PetticoatLane View Post
Let's also not forget the absolute absurdity of the Swedish king bestowing an order on his grandchildren as babies at their christenings.

All these orders, whether it be the RFO or the Garter or any other royal order in just about any country, are absurdly irrelevant to modern life in the 21st Century. So, who cares who gets one and when?



PetticoatLane, when I read your posts I sometimes think you hate Royalty! But that´s another topic...
And orders might be irrelevant to people who presumably will never get one, but in political or royal circles these things do matter.

Giving orders to newborn royal babies in Sweden is not absurd at all - that´s royal tradition! During the time of the monarchy in Greece, royal babies also received an order at the christening, pinned on the cushion the infant lay.
As I said before in my post (and the swedish example is a striking one), giving out orders has normally nothing to do with having to "earn" or "deserve" it, but rather to obey protocol, tradition or strengthening diplomatic bonds as a sign of a friendly gesture.


Even here on this board, where you would expect people knowing such things about Royalty, miltary orders one receives for bravery, comradeship etc. are mixed up with orders statesmen and -women or Royals hand out....!
Do you believe the Emperor of Japan has done more for the british / japanese relationship than a minor Royal who also did official visits to these countries? Or the norwegian, danish or spanish monarchs?
Of course, not! But they all got the highest ranking order of the UK a living human being can get, the Garter. And that because they are fellow sovereigns of the Queen! And do you believe that republican heads of state did less for the relationships to Britain? Possibly not, but they just receive the Order of the Bath (less prestigious and less highranking than the Garter!), simply because they are no fellow monarchs of the Queen.
When the Kings of Spain and of the Netherlands are due to be installed at Windsor with the Garter, it is simply and only because it is tradition and because they are "of the club". That´s that. No specific merits, no deeds of bravery and sacrifice, nothing. Do you get that?


When it comes to the RFO - its name says it all! It is an order, a symbol, that you are a (female) member of this family.
You could spend 12 hours a day in bed every day - but if the Sovereign find this is ok and likes you for what ever reason, you still receive it because it is just His/ Her Majesty´s will and pleasure.
I think Queen Elizabeth makes a difference between wives of immediate heirs (Diana and Camilla received it pretty fast) and heirs in the "2nd row" (Catherine Cambridge had to wait a little longer)
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  #1347  
Old 10-26-2018, 10:42 AM
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IMO the personal honor that appears to have some "criteria" in terms of length of service it is the Royal Victorian Order.


These ladies who married into the BRF received their orders after many years of service to QEII, unlike the their RFOs which for two of them came within months of their weddings.



Katherine (Kent)- RFO- 1960, RVO- 1977
Brigitte- RFO-1973, RVO-1989
Sophie-RFO-2004, RVO-2012

Camilla-RFO-2007, RVO-2013.


Princess Alexandra received her RFO in 1952 and her RVO in 1960.
Princess Anne received her RFO in 1969 and her RVO in 1977. She is the current Dame Commander of the RVO.



The late Diana, Princess of Wales never received the RVO.



(Interestingly enough the DoE just received his RVO in 2017!)
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  #1348  
Old 10-26-2018, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
When the Kings of Spain and of the Netherlands are due to be installed at Windsor with the Garter, it is simply and only because it is tradition and because they are "of the club". That´s that. No specific merits, no deeds of bravery and sacrifice, nothing. Do you get that?
Not to detract too much from the discussion of the Royal Family Order but I do want to jump in here about the Order of the Garter. There are three distinct classifications of Knights Companions and Ladies Companion. The example you've put forward with the Kings of Spain and the Netherlands are actually classified as Stranger Knights and are separate from the limited 24 number of Knights Companions and Ladies Companions allowed. There is also the classification of Royal Knights and Ladies Companion which includes the members of the British Royal Family honored with the Order of the Garter.

All three though are awarded at the will and pleasure of the monarch and you're right that there's no specific criteria that the Queen needs to follow.
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  #1349  
Old 10-26-2018, 03:31 PM
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Honestly, Kate has done plenty and it’s obviously not a matter of numbers. I don’t know that full-time or part-time is what matters to her especially since the royals themselves do not use those terms or concern themselves with who does 400+ vs 100+ or 2. Neither Camilla nor Sophie do nearly as much as Anne or Charles. William and Sophie have very similar numbers. So, Ii’s the Queen’s personal discretion and her feelings on personal service. Obviously we’re all just speculating on what that criteria is but we don’t know. I do think it was delayed a bit since they probably needed to decided on other alternatives to ivory. Not 5 years but some time.
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  #1350  
Old 10-26-2018, 06:28 PM
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I have no doubt that many variations were trialled before the final glass. It would have to be painted and then handled to see how it wore so it could definitely take a year or two.

Personally, I have no problem with the continued use of ivory until such time as the BRF supply is used. I see no edification in the notion of burning it as it was obtained at a time it was not illegal nor were there extinction issues.

I have a beautiful ivory pendant and earrings which I cannot wear any more. Am I supposed to smash them? No. However, I would gladly lead a team tasked with pursuing ivory poachers.
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  #1351  
Old 10-26-2018, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
IMO the personal honor that appears to have some "criteria" in terms of length of service it is the Royal Victorian Order.


These ladies who married into the BRF received their orders after many years of service to QEII, unlike the their RFOs which for two of them came within months of their weddings.



Katherine (Kent)- RFO- 1960, RVO- 1977
Brigitte- RFO-1973, RVO-1989
Sophie-RFO-2004, RVO-2012

Camilla-RFO-2007, RVO-2013.


Princess Alexandra received her RFO in 1952 and her RVO in 1960.
Princess Anne received her RFO in 1969 and her RVO in 1977. She is the current Dame Commander of the RVO.



The late Diana, Princess of Wales never received the RVO.



(Interestingly enough the DoE just received his RVO in 2017!)
The RVO is given to 'minor royals' as a general rule. The reason why the DoE received it in 2017 is that it was the only order he didn't have and there was nothing else for the Queen to give him.

Note that neither Charles nor William have it but every other working royal male does along with many of the women.
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  #1352  
Old 10-27-2018, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Princess Michael does not carry out engagements on behalf of the BRF. This might explain why.


Occasionally Princess Michael represents HM during state and official visits eg. The music concert at RAH for The President of Ireland during Irish State visit to UK and also attended pontificial masses during visits of two popes.
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  #1353  
Old 10-27-2018, 07:19 AM
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DYK that the image on HMQ’s Royal Family Order shows her wearing the Nizam of Hyderabad diamond necklace. This was the first necklace that she loaned to the Duchess of Cambridge.

Pic

Via Cepe Smith Twitter
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  #1354  
Old 10-27-2018, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I guess if some families can have Granny's secret recipes, this royal Granny can have her own secrets that will never be revealed and the rest of the family isn't talking either. We have no clue if the RFO is dependent on being a "working" royal or not. Its a private family thing.

Beatrice and Eugenie may very well have their grandmother's RFO but haven't really had a chance to be somewhere where they'd wear them. The Commonwealth dinner hosted by the Queen was a black tie event and orders are usually only worn at white tie events if memory serves me right.

Well, I´m not sure if there really is a "recipe" or concept these days behind when one gets it.
I agree though that this is a private matter.
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  #1355  
Old 10-27-2018, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalriada View Post
Occasionally Princess Michael represents HM during state and official visits eg. The music concert at RAH for The President of Ireland during Irish State visit to UK and also attended pontificial masses during visits of two popes.
She's catholic and Prince Michael had to renounce his rights in the order of succession to marry her. Seems difficult in that case to award her an order made to aknowledge the services to the Crown and the Dynasty.
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  #1356  
Old 10-27-2018, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
She's catholic and Prince Michael had to renounce his rights in the order of succession to marry her. Seems difficult in that case to award her an order made to aknowledge the services to the Crown and the Dynasty.
I think you're confusing the Royal Family Order with the Royal Victorian Order. The RVO is the one that the Queen bestows on people for their service to the Crown both within her own family and to public figures she deems worthy.
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  #1357  
Old 10-27-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think you're confusing the Royal Family Order with the Royal Victorian Order. The RVO is the one that the Queen bestows on people for their service to the Crown both within her own family and to public figures she deems worthy.
There is no confusion at all. We can agree that the Queen values enormously the orders inside her own family. I do think the RFO is extra special because it's only awarded to women, and yes women who contributed to the good run of the "Firm". It would have made no sense to bestow an order to someone who is not , at least officially, part of the full time "female force" of the BRF.
The RVO is the sherry on the cake ...
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  #1358  
Old 10-27-2018, 08:38 AM
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I see your point, Nico. It just may be the reality of it all that Queen Elizabeth II is the first monarch to see the RFO as something that means something rather than the previous monarchs that seemed to see it as "you're female and you're part of my family so you get my RFO" kind of thing. Kind of along the same lines as it is Charles who has really written the job description book on being The Prince of Wales.

I wish the Queen gave interviews. I would love to have someone ask her questions about the RFO and have her answer them.
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  #1359  
Old 10-27-2018, 11:20 AM
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But never giving Princess Margaret the Garter Order , and not giving the Duchesses of York the RFO is Her Majesty's Will.
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  #1360  
Old 10-27-2018, 06:57 PM
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Were any Royal Family Orders made for the reign of King Edward VIII?
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