The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[Osipi]

We just don't know and probably never will. I'm really of the opinion that the Cambridges are gearing up to be full time working royals and with that, who knows how the Queen will show her appreciation?

 

[Countessmeout]

Maybe The Queen will soon appoint her to a knighthood and give her the family order at the sametime. Or something like that. I'm just noticing the absence of the family order on the third lady of the land after nearly six years and attending the events where its worn. Little concerning to me. It stands really stands out when she's around the family that has it too.

She isn't the third lady in the land, either private or public. She falls much lower in the line if precedence even when William is there.

Sophie, who is higher. Had to wait five years, working as a full time Royal. Camilla who is higher than her, had to wait two years as a full time Royal and consort of the heir to the throne. Fergie who was higher than Kate's current position, never got it in seven years.

The fact is when she us at these events she is surrounded by1 women who have been in the family much longer than her 2 who are full time royals.


You keep insisting the yorks will never have it, becayse they aren't full time royals (ignoring that is never been a requirement) but then ignore the same thing about Kate. If Beatrice only doing part time duties abd oatronages as a granddaughter if the queen is not entitled, why is Kate a snub??

 

[Lee-Z]

So the only ones who could receive the order (because they are family) and we're either sure they haven't or unsure they have, are:
Duchess of Cambridge
P.Beatrix
P.Eugenie
Zara Tindall
Princess Michael of Kent
right?

Or could for instance also Lady Sarah Chatto get it if HM wanted it, or Lady Helen Taylor for instance?

 

[Ish]

I don't believe Zara is eligible for it because while she's family, she's not a member of the Royal Family (she herself is not royal). Likewise with Sarah Chatto, Helen Windsor, and the other female members of the extended family.

 

[Rudolph]

Not to get the thread off topic but precedence not regulated by law is that granted at Court and this is a matter for The Queen.

Royal peers can no longer sit in parliament, so at Court, William and Catherine are treated as the third couple in the land. There are no examples of Andrew or Edward having precedence over William and there are no examples of Sophie, Beatrice or Eugenie having precedence over Catherine.

Even in the royal box at Wimbledon last year Catherine had pride of place over Sophie. It was Kate who was sat between the Chairman and his wife, not Sophie.

 

[Countessmeout]

I don't believe Zara is eligible for it because while she's family, she's not a member of the Royal Family (she herself is not royal). Likewise with Sarah Chatto, Helen Windsor, and the other female members of the extended family.

Zara is a member of the Royal family, simply an untitled one. As has been established a number of times in this thread, the order has been granted to extended family from the start. Including foreign family members. This has never been restricted to senior royals, or even ones with British titles. It is simply a gift from the monarch to female members of the family. Elizabeth had simply been far more stingy in handing out. Also the number of events the tended family attends. Which requires wearing the order, is much lower. The countess of althone had five orders, though the closest she came to the thrine was granddaughter to the first one she was given it from. Victoria.

 

[Ish]

Zara is a member of the Royal family, simply an untitled one. As has been established a number of times in this thread, the order has been granted to extended family from the start. Including foreign family members. This has never been restricted to senior royals, or even ones with British titles. It is simply a gift from the monarch to female members of the family. Elizabeth had simply been far more stingy in handing out. Also the number of events the tended family attends. Which requires wearing the order, is much lower. The countess of althone had five orders, though the closest she came to the thrine was granddaughter to the first one she was given it from. Victoria.

No, Zara is not a member of the Royal family. A distinction can be made here: a member of the Royal family is a member of the Queen's family (extended or otherwise) who is also a British Royal. Those family members who do not hold British Royal Titles and therefore are not British Royals, like Zara, are not members of the British Royal Family.

The Queen's family are those who are related to her. This includes her not royal grandchildren, her not royal son-in-law, and her not royal nephew and niece. The British Royal Family is the individuals in the Queen's family who also hold British Royal titles. They are:

• Her Majesty the Queen
• His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh
• His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales
• Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cornwall
• His Royal Highness The Duke of Cambridge
• Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cambridge
• His Royal Highness Prince George of Cambridge
• Her Royal Highness Princess Charlotte of Cambridge
• His Royal Highness The Duke of York
• Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrice of York
• Her Royal Highness Princess Eugenie of York
• His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex
• Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex
• Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal
• His Royal Highness The Duke of Gloucester
• Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Gloucester
• His Royal Highness The Duke of Kent
• Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Kent
• His Royal Highness Prince Michael of Kent
• Her Royal Highness Princess Michael of Kent
• Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy

The Countess of Athlone, more properly HRH Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, was a member of the British Royal Family, being a British Royal. Thus she was eligible to receive honours like the RFO.

 

[Countessmeout]

There is absolutely no stipulation that the RFO has to be given to a British Royal, none. Simply a member of the family. How many foreign grandchildren did Victoria give it to?

It is a gift, to female members of the family plain and simple. It is up to the monarch to decide who is granted it.

 

[Ish]

I agree that it's a gift, and I agree that it's up to the monarch to decide.

You were arguing that Zara was a member of the BRF, which she's not. That's what my response was to.

On the actual issue of whether or not it's a gift to any female family member, I'd argue against it. If you look at the old BRF website, in the honours section it actually specifically says "The Orders are now worn on formal occasions by female members of the Royal Family only". That certainly implies that Zara - not a member of the Royal Family - is excluded.

Yes, Queen Victoria gave out the RFO to a broader spectrum of people, but in the century since her reign that's changed.

 

[Rudolph]

^^^ You're right. I'm typing too fast and not thinking while trying to keep an eye on Harry's relationship thread lol.

 

[Dman]

Maybe HM just thought it all is too complicated to keep track who is eligable and all the fuzz it creates and decided she's not going to give out any RFO's anymore and just said to Charles: "You can give them all yours when you become king, i'm not gonna bother anymore" (the most RFO's she gave out was around her coronation as well)


well probably not, but let's face it, that guess is as good as any

Well, we do know that Catherine will have three family orders; the Queen's, Charles's and William's orders. If God grant her a long life, she get Geroge's. That's four in all.

I'd like to see the orders worn more often like before. The royal ladies used to wear them to the Garter, Thanksgiving and wedding ceremonies. They also used to be worn on official tours too.

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that all posts discussing the titles of the children of the Earl and Countess of Wessex have been moved to the following thread:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f114/titles-of-the-wessex-children-13729.html

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The late Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, indeed was "just" a grandchild of Queen Victoria, but she was extremely well-connected in the Almanach de Gotha, her brother being the reigning Duke of Sachsen-Coburg, her full cousin being the reigning Queen of the Netherlands, she herself being the longest living princess of the blood royal ever. She has been vicereine of South Africa and vicereine of Canada. She maintained a close network to virtually all European royal houses. Five successive British Sovereigns have given her a RFO which is illustrative for the high esteem in which Princess Alice was held. It must have been an impressive sight to see Princess Alice making her entrée, sporting five (!) diamond encrusted miniatures...

Its entirely possible that Kate has had the RFO for a while and with the issue of ivory, that has been resolved by Kate wearing the wedding bracelet in its stead as the RFO is a gift from the Queen and the wedding bracelet is a gift loan from the Queen. Perhaps it signifies the same thing and the RFO itself is in Kate's jewel vault somewhere and coveted. We don't know.

To make demands or to put questions to something that is clearly and understandably known to be a gift from the Queen is not within anyone's right to make points about. Would we feel that we have the right to decide just what is good and what isn't for the Queen to give as Christmas gifts? No. I don't think so. The RFO and her Christmas gifts are comparable in this case.

The way the RFO works will change in the future. That is a given. It will then be up to King Charles III to gift the RFO as he chooses. For all we know, he could decide that for his, he wants a picture of his namesake frog on it. Its his prerogative.

I would not read too much in that bracelet. It is very well possible that the Queen has distributed items from her jewelry cassettes to Zara Tindall, to Autumn Phillips, to Catherine Cambridge and -upon marriage- to Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise as well to the future spouse of Harry. I find the connection between bracelet and RFO a bit far-sought. It is just a grandmaman giving nice personal bijoux to granddaughters(-in-law).

 

[Osipi]

Although it is very probably that Grandma has gifted all her female children and grandchildren as you say, I believe that the wedding bracelet is something very personal to the Queen, herself, as it was designed by Philip and contains diamonds that belonged to Philip's mother, Alice. It isn't something that HM would part with easily and to my knowledge, has never been given out on loan to anyone. Its just my opinion though that Kate wears this in place of the RFO as a sign of the Queen's esteem but we'll never really know for sure.

 

[Queen Claude]

Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone also married Queen Mary's brother, so she was George V's sister-in-law, Edward VIII and George VI's aunt (by marriage) and Elizabeth II's great aunt (by marriage).

Speaking of Edward VIII, is it known whether he gave out orders during his brief reign? If he did, obviously the recipients refused to wear them. I wonder if at least his mother got one.

 

[wyevale]

Speaking of Edward VIII, is it known whether he gave out orders during his brief reign?

Given that a busy new King would have had to make time to both choose and sit for the miniaturist, and that the ivories would need to be 'set' and the recipients decided on, I think it unlikely that even if they were ever made they were actually awarded. Edward was notoriously impatient, and intolerant of what he saw as the unnecessary adjuncts to 'kinging', and its likely he looked at the RFO in the same light !

 

[Ish]

Well... we know that Edward VIII sat for a number of portraits in his lifetime - including one of him in his coronation robes, which would have been done during his short reign. It seems to me likely that they would have at least started the process of getting the miniature done for his RFO as well.

The recipients likely would have been the same women who already held George V's order (and who subsequently received George VI's). I believe the women who received the Queen's RFO in 1952 were the ones who already had George VI's. I'd bet the same happened with previous monarch's (and will happen when Charles is king); everyone who had the predecessors RFO gets the new monarch's right away.

 

[Countessmeout]

Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone also married Queen Mary's brother, so she was George V's sister-in-law, Edward VIII and George VI's aunt (by marriage) and Elizabeth II's great aunt (by marriage).

Speaking of Edward VIII, is it known whether he gave out orders during his brief reign? If he did, obviously the recipients refused to wear them. I wonder if at least his mother got one.

No, he didn't have an RFO. Since George III introduced the practice, there has been two kings who have not. The other was Victoria's uncle William IV even though he reigned for seven years.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Edward VII's RFO wasn't awarded until 1902 and George V's until 1911. That is they were awarded in Coronation year not accession year. It appears that Edward didn't award any - none listed for Queen Mary for instance from him but it would seem that the tradition is that is it first given in the coronation year not accession year anyway and he didn't reach the coronation. Elizabeth herself made the gift in December 1952 so still nearly a year after her accession.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone also married Queen Mary's brother, so she was George V's sister-in-law, Edward VIII and George VI's aunt (by marriage) and Elizabeth II's great aunt (by marriage).

Speaking of Edward VIII, is it known whether he gave out orders during his brief reign? If he did, obviously the recipients refused to wear them. I wonder if at least his mother got one.

Fascinating. That is why I felt in love with royal history: the many interlinks between countries and houses.

 

[Ish]

No, he didn't have an RFO. Since George III introduced the practice, there has been two kings who have not. The other was Victoria's uncle William IV even though he reigned for seven years.

One correction - it was George IV who introduced the formal RFO. The practice of giving out the order began when George IV was Prince Regent, but formal Order itself started in George IV's reign.

 

[Ish]

Question for the forum: does anyone know where to find a list of who had the Orders of George IV, Victoria and Albert, Edward VII, George V, and George VI?

 

[cepe]

Question for the forum: does anyone know where to find a list of who had the Orders of George IV, Victoria and Albert, Edward VII, George V, and George VI?

If you type in "Recipients of Royal Family Order of XX" (XX being the monarch) you will get a list of all known recipients.(wikipedia)

 

[padams2359]

Edward VII's RFO wasn't awarded until 1902 and George V's until 1911. That is they were awarded in Coronation year not accession year. It appears that Edward didn't award any - none listed for Queen Mary for instance from him but it would seem that the tradition is that is it first given in the coronation year not accession year anyway and he didn't reach the coronation. Elizabeth herself made the gift in December 1952 so still nearly a year after her accession.

I am sure they take quite some time to create. The materials could have been reused for George VI or destroyed, gold remelted, jewels reused.

 

[Ish]

Thanks, Cepe. I'm finding the Wikipedia lists aren't entirely accurate... or more I should say they aren't exactly complete. I'm not sure if it's because of the way Wikipedia "requires" sources or because it hasn't caught the interest of Wikipedia users. But other than QEII's RFO and the RFO of Victoria and Albert, the lists there are very incomplete.

For example - we know Queen Mary would have received a number of RFOs, and on the page listing all of her titles and honours she's listed as having received the RFO of every monarch since Queen Victoria (except for Edward VIII, who didn't issue any). Yet on the page for the RFO of George VI only the Queen, Queen Mother, and Princess Margaret are listed, and the RFO of George V only lists the Queen Mother, Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, and Princess Margaret (ironically excluding the Queen herself, while displaying a picture of the Queen wearing the RFO). The RFO of Edward VII doesn't list any recipients, while the RFO of George IV lists only three recipients (his sister Charlotte, his sister-in-law the Duchess of Cambridge, and her daughter, Augusta). Yet, on a different page regarding the RFO, Queen Victoria s described as having received her uncle's RFO while still Princess Victoria of Kent.

 

[Molly2101]

I'm not really sure where to put this so I thought this was potentially the most relative thread.

I was wondering if James, Viscount Severn would be chosen as a Page of Honour to the Queen? I know Charles Armstrong-Jones, Augustus Stanhope (Countess of Snowdon's nephew) and one of the Chatto boys have been/are Pages of Honour so I was wondering what are the chances that the Queen's grandson would be chosen?

 

[Iluvbertie]

My thinking is that probably not - was Peter Philips ever in such a position? He is also a grandson of the Queen and not HRH so would be the only other one who could be in the same position as James - a non-HRH grandson. If Peter never had that position then I doubt that James would.

 

[hel]

My thinking is that probably not - was Peter Philips ever in such a position? He is also a grandson of the Queen and not HRH so would be the only other one who could be in the same position as James - a non-HRH grandson. If Peter never had that position then I doubt that James would.

Good thinking. He was not. There's a list on Wikipedia for anyone who's interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_of_Honour#Elizabeth_II

It seems to be a way for the monarch to strengthen ties with the members of the peerage, so it would make sense that individuals who already share a strong blood tie wouldn't be chosen.

 

[Dman]

'Naked' Kate Middleton is on the verge of getting a gong | Daily Mail Online

The headline could've been worded better, but I hope this is the year The Duchess of Cambridge receives a knighthood from Her Majesty The Queen for her years of service. She deserves it and I'm sure her whole family is very proud of her work and service.

 

[Osipi]

Considering the source, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one but it would be very nice if it did come to pass. I just don't trust the Daily Mail and their "sources" at all.