The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[Skippyboo]

The Royal Victorian Order is for service to the monarch. Since Charles is a future monarch maybe that is why Charles doesn't have that one but all his siblings do plus Sophie and Camilla.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Queen uses to me a bizarre system. Philip, Charles and William are Garter Knights. None has a GCVO, yet Andrew and Edward have it.

AS for the RFO, I've gone done that street too many times. Outwardly at least, there appears to be no rhyme or reason to British orders.

The three named royals all received the very highest English Order, two of them also have the very highest Scottish Order. For me that explains why they do not have the "build-up" in Orders other British royals have: simply because they already received the highest possible royal honours.

Queen Elizabeth is the only British Sovereign who has made family members wait for her family order. She and Margaret wore them as little girls and P Alexandra also wore them as a teenager before her royal work had started. George V's daughters in law received them upon marriage with Princess Marina actually wearing her's on her wedding gown. On saying that it wasn't something that was practiced at the start of her reign as all the British Princesses already in the family got it for her coronation. So looking back the British RFO was the same as the Swedish one in the past being simply a nice token given by the sovereign to female relatives upon entry to the family and certainly not something to be earned. Why the Queen changed this I don't know as knighthoods and damehoods are still in existence to be bestowed as a mark of esteem.

That is interesting, that the RFO was more or less the same as The King's Miniature in Sweden: a memento for female members born (or upon entrance) in the Royal House. Interesting that this RFO has developed from a nice memento to the Sovereign into an "award".

 

[Skippyboo]

The three named royals all received the very highest English Order, two of them also have the very highest Scottish Order. For me that explains why they do not have the "build-up" in Orders other British royals have: simply because they already received the highest possible royal honours.

Philip, Charles and William all have the Garter and Thistle. Highest English and Scottish orders. As future monarchs, Charles and William probably won't ever receive a Knighthood for the Royal Victorian Order since it's for service to the monarch.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Philip, Charles and William all have the Garter and Thistle. Highest English and Scottish orders. As future monarchs, Charles and William probably won't ever receive a Knighthood for the Royal Victorian Order since it's for service to the monarch.

I missed that William also has the Thistle in the meantime. Thanks. This indeed underlines that being bestowed the two most supreme Orders possible means no "build up".

For Charles and William we will see that in foreign Orders: Charles has a lot of foreign royal Orders and as King he will receive higher Orders when visiting or receiving the same monarchy again.

For an example: he has the Orden de Isabel la Católica and will receive the (supreme) Orden del Toisón de Oro when he visits or receives the Spanish monarch as head of state.

 

[sophie25]

Being heir to the throne dosn't stop you receiving the Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order. It's the highest order the Monarch has in his/her personal gift for services to the Crown even though it ranks below other orders of chivalry such as the Garter. Queen Victoria gave it to her son who later became Edward VII, he gave it to the future George V and he in turn gave it to his son the Prince of Wales and future Edward VIII.

 

[Spheno]

Being heir to the throne dosn't stop you receiving the Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order. It's the highest order the Monarch has in his/her personal gift for services to the Crown even though it ranks below other orders of chivalry such as the Garter. Queen Victoria gave it to her son who later became Edward VII, he gave it to the future George V and he in turn gave it to his son the Prince of Wales and future Edward VIII.

In Victoria's and Edward's time the Royal Victorian Order was the highest order the Monarch had in his/her personal gift.
In 1946 membership of the United Kingdom's highest ranking Orders of Chivalry (the Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle and the dormant Order of St. Patrick) became a personal gift of the Sovereign.
Charles and William are Knights of the Garter, the highest possible royal honour.

 

[sophie25]

Hi th ug

In Victoria's and Edward's time the Royal Victorian Order was the highest order the Monarch had in his/her personal gift.
In 1946 membership of the United Kingdom's highest ranking Orders of Chivalry (the Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle and the dormant Order of St. Patrick) became a personal gift of the Sovereign.
Charles and William are Knights of the Garter, the highest possible royal honour.

Not true I'm afraid. Every other order if chivalry has to be approved by the prime minister. That's what makes the RVO so unique. It's the only order ENTIRELY within the Sovereign's gift.

 

[Spheno]

Hi th ug

Not true I'm afraid. Every other order if chivalry has to be approved by the prime minister. That's what makes the RVO so unique. It's the only order ENTIRELY within the Sovereign's gift.

No.

Knights of the Garter are chosen personally by the Sovereign to honour those who have held public office, who have contributed in a particular way to national life or who have served the Sovereign personally.

https://www.royal.uk/order-garter

 

[tommy100]

This statement from BP regarding the 2005 appointments to the garter may help clear up any confusion...

The appointment of the Knights and Ladies of the Garter is in The Queen's gift (that is to say without Prime Ministerial advice). Appointments to the Order of the Garter are therefore in the same category as the Order of the Thistle, the Order of Merit and the Royal Victorian Order which are also in The Queen's gift.

https://www.royal.uk/appointments-order-garter-2005

Whilst I'm sure the government could express its unhappiness if the Queen decided to appointment someone wholly unsuitable to the order - say Kim Jong Un - it appears to me there's nothing they could do about it.

 

[sophie25]

Ii to To marry

No.


https://www.royal.uk/order-garter[/QUOTE

The Garter is for services to the country at large not to the Sovereign personally and is approved by the government of the day. An example is when the Emperor of Japan received it in the early 1970's. The Queen received enormous criticism as this was a man who had presided over the torture and deaths of thousands of British prisoners of war only 30 years before. The Palace was then quick to point out that the decision to give it to him was the government's and not the Queen's.

 

[cepe]

This is getting confusing (or I'm just having a bad day)

As I understand it -
GCVO highest for services to HMQ
GArter - highest for services to Country

Question
Are we saying that all "stranger knights" have to be agreed by the Government?
or was this because, in the case of Emperor of Japan, there was potential controversy?

 

[Dman]

Well, it would be nice to see the only senior family member, who don't have any honors, be awarded in this new year.

The family order isn't a knighthood, but a family Memento. Just pointing out the difference.

 

[Rudolph]

There is no comparison between the two orders. The Garter is ultra exclusive, limited to 24 Knights of a single class. The order is something like 700 years old.

The RVO is much newer. It's membership is unlimited and divided over several classes.

Knights of the Garter are chosen personally by the Sovereign to honour those who have held public office, who have contributed in a particular way to national life or who have served the Sovereign personally. These have included Marshal of the RAF, Lord Stirrup, and former Prime Ministers Sir John Major and Sir Winston Churchill.

https://www.royal.uk/order-garter

The RVO allows the Queen to award people like her private secretary or surgeon-gynecologist with a knighthood as they would never qualify for the exalted level of Garter Knight.

 

[Skippyboo]

Emperor Hirohito got the Garter in 1929 from George V. It was degraded in 1941 and restored in 1971. Degrading and restoring it would be government decisions.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Anyway, we may expect Catherine with the RFO, any more time it takes, the shorter the wait, let us say.

For the Princess Michael I have the theory that the RFO is for every born senior Princess in the royal family, spouses to Princes in the direct line and by extension spouses of royal Dukes.

This means that junior princesses (like Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Michael), as well the future non-royal Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent will not receive the RFO.

This theory means that the RFO will be worn by Camilla, Catherine, the future Princess George, Charlotte, the future Princess Harry, Anne, Sophie, plus Alexandra, Brigitte and Katharine as the remnants of the extended family.

 

[Lee-Z]

as i understand it the "trick" with getting of an RFO is that there is no theory to it; it is a personal choice by the monarch according to their own "whim and fancy"

 

[Dman]

as i understand it the "trick" with getting of an RFO is that there is no theory to it; it is a personal choice by the monarch according to their own "whim and fancy"

The thing is, after all this time, Catherine would normally already have it. I still think the order being made with ivory is the issue. The thing is it's pretty easy to make it with porcelain or so I think. Why make Catherine stand out without having the order? She's attending State Banquets and receptions without it and it's something that's required for the senior women to wear at those events.

The Queen should fix this issue. It may seem like small potatoes to some, but to me it's unfair and make no sense what so ever.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Obviously, as they can use something other than ivory, the Queen doesn't believe that Kate has done sufficient service to HM to earn it. What criteria HM has for that we don't know but we do know that length of marriage and having children isn't sufficient as The Duchess of York had a longer period of marriage and two children and didn't get it so neither length of marriage or having children or doing a few duties is what the Queen requires for it to be awarded.

Just because some members of the public think that she deserves it makes no difference to HM who is the only person who has to make the decision.

 

[Dman]

Obviously, as they can use something other than ivory, the Queen doesn't believe that Kate has done sufficient service to HM to earn it. What criteria HM has for that we don't know but we do know that length of marriage and having children isn't sufficient as The Duchess of York had a longer period of marriage and two children and didn't get it so neither length of marriage or having children or doing a few duties is what the Queen requires for it to be awarded.

Just because some members of the public think that she deserves it makes no difference to HM who is the only person who has to make the decision.

I don't think it's due to service, because it's obvious Catherine has served The Queen personally for nearly six years. It could be that there's no spare order to give, the use of ivory or The Queen just haven't thought about it.

It's odd that she don't have it yet though. Questions should be asked by the media as to why Catherine don't have the family order after all this time.

The issue should be fixed instead of being ignored or dismissed.

 

[Countessmeout]

Perhaps the simple fact she isn't a full time Royal. Yes she has been married six years, but she is still part time and not doing a lot of duties. She is basically in the same position Fergie was and she never got it. When Kate and William move to London and she picks up more work for the queen, she will likely get it.

I actually like that it us not like the Swedish system and you simply get it for being a member. Otherwise there is no reason the queen's adult granddaughters don't have it. Beatrice and Eugenie both have patronages and appear at events, if longevity in the family is a deciding factor, certainly they are longer than Kate.

 

[padams2359]

I think it will just seem strange if the Queen does pass and all of a sudden they all pop up with them on.

 

[MARG]

I don't think it's due to service, because it's obvious Catherine has served The Queen personally for nearly six years. It could be that there's no spare order to give, the use of ivory or The Queen just haven't thought about it.

It's odd that she don't have it yet though. Questions should be asked by the media as to why Catherine don't have the family order after all this time.

The issue should be fixed instead of being ignored or dismissed.

Obviously it is not an "issue" at all as far as HM is concerned, it is rather, in her gift. End of story.

But, do you honestly think journalists questioning HM's integrity, implying she is acting unfairly and demanding an explanation would get any answer at all from BP?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Exactly - it is the Queen's personal gift and she hasn't seen fit to give that particular gift.

To argue otherwise is to show disrespect for HM.

 

[muriel]

Exactly - it is the Queen's personal gift and she hasn't seen fit to give that particular gift.

To argue otherwise is to show disrespect for HM.

I completely agree with you, it is in the gift of HM, and it is for her to decide. Not sure if we can really try and develop an analytical model that determines when it is awarded.

 

[Rudolph]

As has already been stated, Prince Philip doesn't have a GCVO for 'services to the monarchy'. Now does anyone really suggest the Queen thinks he doesn't deserve it but Prince Edward or Sophie do?

That's the problem with the British system. Because there is no consistency, because there is no explanation, it allows people to pick an individual royal and say well "The Queen must think they don't deserve it"

Queen Victoria's cousin, Prince George, Duke of Cambridge had 10 knighthoods plus was a privy counsellor.

He had everything from the Garter to the Order of St John and everything in between.

He must one of the most 'deserving' British royals in recent memory.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Note also that the two adult born Princesses of the blood royal, Beatrice and Eugenie, have no RFO either. Maybe the argument can be used: these are no "fulltime royals" but that is nonsense. One is royal or one is not royal. The two Alices (Gloucester and Athlone) as well Marina of Kent have received the RFO from Queen Elizabeth II and they were not "fulltime" in action for the royal family either.

 

[Osipi]

When it comes to Beatrice and Eugenie and the RFO, I think its very possible that both of the girls do have one but there really hasn't been an occasion which we would have seen them wearing one. At least not that I recall. Have either of them ever attended a state banquet or an occasion where tiaras and orders are worn?

 

[Skippyboo]

If you are going to argue that Bea and Eugenie have a RFO but have not been to a place where they would wear it, then it can also be argued that Kate has a RFO and chooses not to wear it because of William's ivory stance.

 

[Dman]

Beatrice and Eugenie don't have the family order because their not official working royals. They don't attend State events where the order would be worn either.

If ivory is the issue, then it's easy to have a new one made without it. No one would know the difference. The big issue is why leave her bare of the family order when she's attending events where it's required to be worn? It's disappointing to see her attending these events and not have it on. All her royal peers have theirs.

 

[Osipi]

Beatrice and Eugenie don't have the family order because their not official working royals. They don't attend State events where the order would be worn either.

Are we absolutely positively sure that the girls don't have one? As you, yourself, have stated, "The family order isn't a knighthood, but a family Memento. Just pointing out the difference."

I do agree that it is very possible that one of the Queen's requisites for the recipient that marries into the family show willingness to be an actual part of the working "Firm" and have a stable marriage but with being a "memento" and a family type of thing, its very possible also that HM wanted her granddaughters to have one. We'll probably never know unless Bea and Eugenie do attend a formal event in the future.