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  #1461  
Old 05-14-2021, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post

Scotland also has a very high fiscal deficit, which is financed by the rest of the UK. If it became independent., Scotland would have to endure years of strict fiscal austerity to meet the criteria to join the EU and, when it joined, it would have to join also the Eurozone, which, in the last referendum, the SNP ruled out, forcing them to make a U-turn now.

But isn't it so that Scotland have some assets they have to share with the rest of the Uk by now (like the North Sea oil) and that a lot of companies which are Scottish have their seats in London and this is where they pay their taxes?


I understand that a lot of Scots want their independance from England, as they only lost it when their king inherited England and went off to the richer side (just like Henri IV. did when he inherited France, Navarre lost it's independance and has no longer been heard off during the Bourbon-reign). And they still struggled for it from 1601 (inheritance of the English throne by King James IV Stuart of Scotland who had Tudor-blood from both is father's and mother's side)



We should not forget that Scotland was actually bankrupted by the failed Darien scheme, a scheme where the Scots had hoped to build a trade alliance with a new colony in Panama. And that the English parliament and the Dutch subjects of king William III had withdrawn their support, leaving the Scots to shoulder the cost of the project all alone. And when it failed, many Scots were ruined and the kingdom itself was on the verge of bankrupcy, only then to be saved by England for the prize of their independance. "Bought and sold for English gold" as Robert Burns described the way formerly opposing Scottish members of parliament were convinced to vote for the unity. Honi soit... or so.


So I actually can understand so many Scots wanting independance and a return to the old system, with the queen (and later the new king) of the UK being souvereigns of the Scots again.
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  #1462  
Old 05-14-2021, 08:44 AM
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But they dont it appears want Charles as King
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  #1463  
Old 05-14-2021, 08:50 AM
Majesty
 
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is not how it works. Imagine all Spaniards have to say if Catalonia indeed may leave the kingdom or not, after a victory for the independents in an official and recognized referendum.

It would mean that Galica, Castille, Andalucia, the Baleares, etc. denying what the Catalonians themselves want.

Imagine that a majority of the Scots wants to leave the Union. Then people in Cornwall, Kent or Wales say: "No way!". That is not how it works.


.

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what the Spanish constitutional court said, i.e., that Catalonia could only achieve independence by means of a national referendum where all Spaniards (Castilians, Galicians, Basque, etc.) had a vote. Surprising, isn't it?
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  #1464  
Old 05-14-2021, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
But isn't it so that Scotland have some assets they have to share with the rest of the Uk by now (like the North Sea oil) and that a lot of companies which are Scottish have their seats in London and this is where they pay their taxes?


I understand that a lot of Scots want their independance from England, as they only lost it when their king inherited England and went off to the richer side (just like Henri IV. did when he inherited France, Navarre lost it's independance and has no longer been heard off during the Bourbon-reign). And they still struggled for it from 1601 (inheritance of the English throne by King James IV Stuart of Scotland who had Tudor-blood from both is father's and mother's side)



We should not forget that Scotland was actually bankrupted by the failed Darien scheme, a scheme where the Scots had hoped to build a trade alliance with a new colony in Panama. And that the English parliament and the Dutch subjects of king William III had withdrawn their support, leaving the Scots to shoulder the cost of the project all alone. And when it failed, many Scots were ruined and the kingdom itself was on the verge of bankrupcy, only then to be saved by England for the prize of their independance. "Bought and sold for English gold" as Robert Burns described the way formerly opposing Scottish members of parliament were convinced to vote for the unity. Honi soit... or so.


So I actually can understand so many Scots wanting independance and a return to the old system, with the queen (and later the new king) of the UK being souvereigns of the Scots again.
Let's be clear, in the 2014 referendum where it was yes or no, over 90% of People came out to vote. The answer was 45%..55%.

The recent Scottish election it was just over 60% voted and yes SNP won the most seats by a mile but the breakdown of the vote as it would be in a referendum a 2 way race in fact the SNP only got 50% of the vote.
So 60% of voters and the vote was split 50/50.
There is no vote on sovereignty as part of a referendum but if they gain independence they will drop the monarchy regardless of what they say just now.

PS. James v1 of Scotland did have Tudor blood but the monarchy became the House of Stuart when he ascended the English throne and became James 1 of England.
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  #1465  
Old 05-14-2021, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
.
There is no vote on sovereignty as part of a referendum but if they gain independence they will drop the monarchy regardless of what they say just now.

Yes I agree . This is what I wrote upthread.

SNP + Green had a majority in the previous Scottish Parliament so their majority in this one is not some sort of radical change. The Greens moreover did not go into the 2021 election campaigning for a second referendum in their manifesto. According to the latest polls only a minority of Green constituency voters want independence anyway. Politics as ever is nuanced.

All the independence question does is divide people. Like it did in Quebec & like it does in Catalonia. The possibility that the UK might break up seems to be reported almost with glee in some foreign media. I wonder why.

I’ve not seen any evidence that suggests the next monarch would affect support for independence either way but it's an interesting question.
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  #1466  
Old 05-14-2021, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
The Good Friday agreement has already been changed for Brexit as it was meant to be an agreement of "partners in the EU" - which the Uk is no longer. As both parts of the UK and the Republic of Ireland inhabit the same island, it is difficult to organize a good solution for Northern Ireland and the Uk in the situation enforced by Brexit. A lot of the agreements in the Good Friday agreement was only possible because both the Uk and Ireland shared their outer frontiers, so in fact the Republic, Northern Ireland and the Uk were "as one" based on the EU regulations. Now they are not and there's a frontier right through Ireland again, which could (and probably will) lead to new violence. They need a solution here and it can't be complete seperation, I'm afraid.
The Good Friday Agreement could have been signed if one or neither of the two had been in the EU. Moreover a solution can be found so long as there are people of goodwill on all sides but talk of "some sort of unity" is intensely provocative to one section of the population.

That part of the population remains deeply loyal to the crown.
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  #1467  
Old 05-14-2021, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post


I understand that a lot of Scots want their independance from England
This makes no sense. It sounds as if Scotland is being run by England. Or is a colony of England. Is this how a complex issue is being reported in Germany? If so it's very worrying.
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  #1468  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:08 PM
Serene Highness
 
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I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the future of the British monarchy. I don't think anyone in Barcelona's worrying about the British monarchy. The French monarchs used the title King of Navarre as a subsidiary title, but that doesn't exactly have anything to do with the British monarchy. And the Darien Scheme was over 300 years ago, and not even Nicola Sturgeon's tried bringing it up.
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  #1469  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:10 PM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
As a matter of fact, that is exactly what the Spanish constitutional court said, i.e., that Catalonia could only achieve independence by means of a national referendum where all Spaniards (Castilians, Galicians, Basque, etc.) had a vote. Surprising, isn't it?
Well that's kind of what the Americans siad too, when the southern states wanted to secede from the Union...
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  #1470  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the future of the British monarchy. I don't think anyone in Barcelona's worrying about the British monarchy. The French monarchs used the title King of Navarre as a subsidiary title, but that doesn't exactly have anything to do with the British monarchy. And the Darien Scheme was over 300 years ago, and not even Nicola Sturgeon's tried bringing it up.
Please do not give Nicola any ideas....
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  #1471  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
Please do not give Nicola any ideas....
Never heard of it.
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  #1472  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:36 PM
Majesty
 
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But ‘a lot of Scots’ do want independence from England.

The referendum question was, "Should Scotland be an independent country?", which voters answered with "Yes" or "No". The "No" side won with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour. ... The independence proposal required a simple majority to pass.


Precisely 1,617,989 in fact did want independence and voted for it. That vote was lost by a pretty slim majority. However, in the wake of Brexit and continuing resentments in Scotland, there’s no guarantee that the No vote will prevail the next time.
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  #1473  
Old 05-14-2021, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC21091968 View Post
If Republic thinks having Prince Harry who (according to latest YouGov poll on 22nd April) has a -7 favourability rating amongst the British public, as the influencer to end the monarchy, then they are either having a laugh or just deluded. Judging by the poll and current situation, I don't think the UK government under the Conservatives would even consider a referendum, let alone the republic option would win

I personally think Graham Smith is completely bitter and frustrated that the Oprah interview did not cause the general British public to "cancel" the royal family.

Going back to Camilla Tominey's tweet, Robert Jobson actually replied with disappointment that Graham Smith decided to capitalise Prince Harry's mental health.
Robert Jobson @theroyaleditor
Replying to @CamillaTominey and @GrahamSmith_
That’s unlike @GrahamSmith_ to capitalise on somebody’s mental health issues. Prince Harry has said he has struggled with mental health issues for years. I thought Graham was a more sensitive soul. A tad cheap Graham, I’d expect more from an intelligent chap like you.
5:16 AM · May 14, 2021·Twitter for iPhone
https://twitter.com/theroyaleditor/s...21683275751439
This is why I think that Twitterverse is going to drastically reduce their attention to people who has an ax to grind against the BRF. I remember reading twitterverse’s unfathomable shock when they realized that their outrage after the Oprah interview would not going to “cancel” the BRF. People were genuinely surprised to realize that they can’t cancel everything they don’t personally like, leading them to move onto other “outrages” where they can make the impact they desire.
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  #1474  
Old 05-14-2021, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
But ‘a lot of Scots’ do want independence from England.

The referendum question was, "Should Scotland be an independent country?", which voters answered with "Yes" or "No". The "No" side won with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour. ... The independence proposal required a simple majority to pass.


Precisely 1,617,989 in fact did want independence and voted for it. That vote was lost by a pretty slim majority. However, in the wake of Brexit and continuing resentments in Scotland, there’s no guarantee that the No vote will prevail the next time.
A referendum can only take place if the central government in Westminster agrees to one and I do not see Boris Johnson’s government every agreeing to one
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  #1475  
Old 05-14-2021, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
But ‘a lot of Scots’ do want independence from England.

The referendum question was, "Should Scotland be an independent country?", which voters answered with "Yes" or "No". The "No" side won with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour. ... The independence proposal required a simple majority to pass.


Precisely 1,617,989 in fact did want independence and voted for it. That vote was lost by a pretty slim majority. However, in the wake of Brexit and continuing resentments in Scotland, there’s no guarantee that the No vote will prevail the next time.
Truth. But I think that the situation in Catalonia in Spain is much more serious than the situation in Scotland in the United Kingdom. We have not seen demonstrations in Scotland, like the ones we saw in Catalonia. And the situation in Catalonia is more complicated.
But I also don’t know what benefits Catalonia and Scotland would gain from becoming independent.
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  #1476  
Old 05-15-2021, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Truth. But I think that the situation in Catalonia in Spain is much more serious than the situation in Scotland in the United Kingdom. We have not seen demonstrations in Scotland, like the ones we saw in Catalonia. And the situation in Catalonia is more complicated.
But I also don’t know what benefits Catalonia and Scotland would gain from becoming independent.
The difference is that Scotland has always been an own entity, with own laws, own justice system, own Pound, own education system, a deep identity and -since the devolution- a strong and self-conscious political demos. Their by far biggest party, victorious in election after election, is not Labour, are not the Tories, are not the Liberal Democrats. With also a completely different mindset regarding Europe, where the Scots voted almost 2/3 rd to remain in the EU (but were nevertheless forced to leave the EU), today feeling all consequences they never voted for.

For centuries Catalonia has been ruled (or dictated) by a centralistic State. It was not a union of two kingdoms but more a vassal region to Madrid. With a strong oppression under the long Franco dictatorship.

The main difference however is that Scotland will remain for the Crown. Elizabeth II will become Queen of Scots. The SNP has no plan to establish a republic. In Spain a sedition of Catalonia will for sure mean the economically strongest region to leave Spain, to establish a republic in Catalonia and will put an enormous pressure on the remnant of Spain, with more regions more and more eating away the central Government.

It seems more "easy" to restore the Kingdom of Scotland, to end Westminster rule, and move on forwards than to break away from centralistic Spain. But again, on this Royal Forum: no throne will be lost, a throne will be gained for Elizabeth II or Charles.

Instead of a United Kingdom it will become a personal union with the same monarch. Like the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Like Sweden and Norway. Like Great-Britain and Hannover.
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  #1477  
Old 05-15-2021, 01:16 AM
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Not according to this latest survey. Scots are divided on the issue of monarchy if Scotland gained Independence.

And I remember reading several articles around the time of the referendum in which the journalists (often Scots) believed that once Scotland was independent another referenda held later would establish a republic.

Most all-Britain surveys published in the past decade have shown Scots to be less enthusiastic about the monarchy than the English.



https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...hould-23752436
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  #1478  
Old 05-15-2021, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
But ‘a lot of Scots’ do want independence from England.
A lot of people would like the weather to brighten up. A lot of people would like there to be fewer traffic jams on the motorways. A lot of people would like there to be fewer repeats on TV. But that hasn't got anything to do with the future of the British monarchy either. This conversation just seems to be getting way off track!


And Scotland does not want independence from England. Scotland is not part of England, therefore Scotland cannot want independence from England. Some Scots may want independence from the United Kingdom.
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  #1479  
Old 05-15-2021, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Not according to this latest survey. Scots are divided on the issue of monarchy if Scotland gained Independence.

And I remember reading several articles around the time of the referendum in which the journalists (often Scots) believed that once Scotland was independent another referenda held later would establish a republic.

Most all-Britain surveys published in the past decade have shown Scots to be less enthusiastic about the monarchy than the English.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...hould-23752436
I wonder whether the numbers would differ if a uniquely Scottish monarchy were an option, rather than one shared with England.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
A lot of people would like the weather to brighten up. A lot of people would like there to be fewer traffic jams on the motorways. A lot of people would like there to be fewer repeats on TV. But that hasn't got anything to do with the future of the British monarchy either. This conversation just seems to be getting way off track!
I think Scottish independence would be certain to have a substantial impact on the future of the British monarchy, whether or not independent Scotland opts to retain the British monarch.
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  #1480  
Old 05-15-2021, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I wonder whether the numbers would differ if a uniquely Scottish monarchy were an option, rather than one shared with England.
A few years ago, one of the newspapers reported that the Duke of Bavaria, as the leading Jacobite claimant, was set to become King of Scotland if Scotland voted for independence from the UK.

But this was on April 1st!
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