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  #561  
Old 01-31-2020, 10:15 AM
kbk kbk is offline
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Gawin, exactly 13.26% of Americans reported German ancestry in 2017's census.
Yet being "German" does not mean the same in the US and here in Europe outside Germany.

So, while you can easily say someone is German American or simply German (when American is included by default) in America and no one would question his or her Americaness (what other word should I use?), when you say the Windsors are Germans you explicitly undermine and question their Britishness.
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  #562  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:02 PM
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Being German has changed over the decades too..my late MIL was born in the early 20's, her mother's family was all German and due to the era none of the kids were allowed to speak German or taught German. Nowdays it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if you teach your kids German.

I think most Americans (and evidently ppl from other countries too) have no earthly idea about the genetic makeup of the BRF ...they likely read something in a history book back in the 8th grade or saw a documentary talking about how they changed their name to look less German and that's about all they know.


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  #563  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:20 PM
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I am sorry not just in North America but if you go far enough back in any family tree you likely find at least one other nationality in your blood. Just reality. Doesnít change what you are. Does the fact 5/8 of my great grandparents were born in the British isles make me British and not Canadian (though thatís spread through Ireland, Wales and England) and what about my German? Or the fact two great grandparents were here for so many generations we donít know what there origin was (though some Dutch blood in there).

Honestly after first generation born in the UK calling you anything but British seems pointless. Philips kids are half Greek yes. His grandkids have Greek heritage but arenít Greek. The fact that the queens great great grandfather Albert was born in Germany doesnít make her German.

Do other royal families face this??? Are Frederick and Joachim not considered Danish enough as dad was French?? What about Christian whose father is half French and mother is Australian??

Yes there are some families whose blood may seem more English. But then again they had people who married into them who were immigrants as well.

The Windsorís may not have had the strongest claim but they are connected to more then simply the Tudors and Stuartís. Unfortunately due to the anti catholic issue, George was the nearest choice.
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  #564  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
How a Crown that has had British born Monarchs since Geo lll can be described as 'German' l don't know.. how long must a family wait to be 'naturalised' in 'anyone's book' ?
Its funny we don't hear the Spanish Bourbons being referred to as 'French' even though the Bourbons were a French Ducal House.
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  #565  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:57 PM
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That's so true, Bourbons of Spain are a fine example. Even better than the Windsors (though there is/was no antiFrench sentiment there, like there was antiGerman in most of Europe). Felipe Vi has no Spanish blood in the nearest grades of his descent. It's almost entirely half-French and, a surprise, German. Yet no one considers him and his family aliens. On the contrary.
As I said, we are discussing here ethnic origins only, not questioning the Royals' ...ness in their realms.

Actually, Philip is Greek only nominally. In his case, it's not much less than a title and rights to the throne as he grew up abroad and then adopted British nationality. I don't believe he spoke Greek as his first language. The Greek royal family hails from the Danish one, which again hails from Oldenburg in, what a surprise, Germany. The Glucksburgs lived literally on the Danish German border and intermarried mostly with German princesses, including from their own family, which as we all know was not uncommon. Again, it doesn't mean he's not English.

All this does and does not matter at the same time. Monarchs come to their thrones either by conquer, election or inheritance. And it usually inheirted, which means direct blood relations determine rights to this inheritance. So what made George I a king was his relation to the Stuarts, who in turn derived their rights from the Bruce ancestors in Scotland and Tudors in England, and so on and so on...
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  #566  
Old 01-31-2020, 02:01 PM
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Lilyflo, I meant only ethnicity. I'm not saying you have a German queen. That would be silly. But two of her grandparents had grandparents who had grandparents, and so on, you'll find at some point that were all German "born and raised". Well, almost all, cause there were some Hungarians, Danes... But generally, they were of German origin. Not Anglo-Saxon nor Scottish, that's for sure. Same for the DoE - German by ethnic origin (with Danish, Czech and Polish exceptions).
.
Well, to be precise, the Angles and the Saxons (and the Jutes) were immigrants to Britain from what is now Germany in the 5th century (Saxony anyone?) They conquered and assimilated the existing inhabitants ("Welsh" comes from an Anglo-Saxon word for "foreigner") and then of course the Normans (originally "North-men" or "Norsemen" i.e. "Vikings") who had conquered the northern part of France - conquered and later assimilated THEM in 1066. And of course there were Danish Vikings in Yorkshire.

The English monarchy after 1066 was made up of persons of mostly Norman/French extraction as the Kings tended to marry French princesses (Anjou, Provence, Valois, Aquitaine etc.) In fact, the only dynasties who married "English" wives until the 20th century were the Yorks and the Tudors (and Elizabeth Wydville's mother came from Luxembourg.) The Scottish Kings married mostly French wives right up to Mary and Lord Darnley. (And James VII and II - but he was not the king and was in exile when he married Anne Hyde.) Then the Hanoverians came, and after that it was back to foreign spouses but this time of German origin right up until Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Lady Alice Montague-Douglas-Scott and their successors came along and brought British brides back in vogue.

George III "gloried in the name of Briton." George V said during World War I "I may be uninspiring, but I’ll be damned if I’m alien!” and "I've been abroad and it's horrible!" The current British Royal Family IS British in every way that really counts and now thanks to Lady Elizabeth, Lady Diana, and Miss Middleton the future monarchs, William and his successors, carry more "British blood" than at any time since Elizabeth I.
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  #567  
Old 01-31-2020, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Its funny we don't hear the Spanish Bourbons being referred to as 'French' even though the Bourbons were a French Ducal House.

From 1589 onwards, the Bourbons were the French royal house.


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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Well, to be precise, the Angles and the Saxons (and the Jutes) were immigrants to Britain from what is now Germany in the 5th century (Saxony anyone?) They conquered and assimilated the existing inhabitants ("Welsh" comes from an Anglo-Saxon word for "foreigner") and then of course the Normans (originally "North-men" or "Norsemen" i.e. "Vikings") who had conquered the northern part of France - conquered and later assimilated THEM in 1066. And of course there were Danish Vikings in Yorkshire.

The English monarchy after 1066 was made up of persons of mostly Norman/French extraction as the Kings tended to marry French princesses (Anjou, Provence, Valois, Aquitaine etc.) In fact, the only dynasties who married "English" wives until the 20th century were the Yorks and the Tudors (and Elizabeth Wydville's mother came from Luxembourg.) The Scottish Kings married mostly French wives right up to Mary and Lord Darnley. (And James VII and II - but he was not the king and was in exile when he married Anne Hyde.) Then the Hanoverians came, and after that it was back to foreign spouses but this time of German origin right up until Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Lady Alice Montague-Douglas-Scott and their successors came along and brought British brides back in vogue.

George III "gloried in the name of Briton." George V said during World War I "I may be uninspiring, but I’ll be damned if I’m alien!” and "I've been abroad and it's horrible!" The current British Royal Family IS British in every way that really counts and now thanks to Lady Elizabeth, Lady Diana, and Miss Middleton the future monarchs, William and his successors, carry more "British blood" than at any time since Elizabeth I.

Marrying foreign princesses was the norm for most European kings or future kings well into the 20th century. The Kings of Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, etc. consistently had foreign wives. Based on that criterion, almost all royal families in Europe would be "foreign" then.
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  #568  
Old 01-31-2020, 03:54 PM
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Lilyflo, I meant only ethnicity. I'm not saying you have a German queen. That would be silly. But two of her grandparents had grandparents who had grandparents, and so on, you'll find at some point that were all German "born and raised". Well, almost all, cause there were some Hungarians, Danes... But generally, they were of German origin. Not Anglo-Saxon nor Scottish, that's for sure. Same for the DoE - German by ethnic origin (with Danish, Czech and Polish exceptions).


So, what I wanted to say is that the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (aka Windsor) family's (and the Oldenburgs's) origins are in Germany, as were the Hanovers's (even more!). Except for their blood links to the Scottish Stuarts and English Tudors, of course, from which they derive their position on the throne. Fun fact here is that when George Louis of Hanover acceeded to the British throne as George I, there were several dozens of people who were closer relations by blood to his predecessor than he was.
The Anglo-Saxons were Germans so anyone claiming to be Anglo-Saxon is claiming to be German as well.

The Tudors were Welsh, not English. However Henry VII's ancestry includes French etc so not 'pure' Welsh either.
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  #569  
Old 01-31-2020, 04:15 PM
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Its funny we don't hear the Spanish Bourbons being referred to as 'French' even though the Bourbons were a French Ducal House.
And preceded as rulers of Spain by the Austrian Habsburgs!

Royal families have, until recently, married members of other royal families, not their subjects. It was just the way it went. It doesn't make anyone "foreign" to their own country.
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  #570  
Old 01-31-2020, 04:31 PM
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The Anglo-Saxons were Germans so anyone claiming to be Anglo-Saxon is claiming to be German as well.

The Tudors were Welsh, not English. However Henry VII's ancestry includes French etc so not 'pure' Welsh either.
And Henry VII's great-grandmother Isabeau of Bavaria was German so we're right back where we started....
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  #571  
Old 01-31-2020, 04:46 PM
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Well all this ongoing marriage between various already related families showed how they saw themselves as much European as anything. Albeit a rarified caste.

A topical viewpoint tonight of all nights. Although I don't want to get into trouble for being political
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  #572  
Old 01-31-2020, 05:19 PM
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After a point don't almost all of the Royal Houses of Europe go back to Queen Victoria and King Christian of Denmark? I think except maybe Belgium?

So..none of them are really pure anything (Welsh, English etc etc) by 'genetics'.



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  #573  
Old 01-31-2020, 05:21 PM
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And preceded as rulers of Spain by the Austrian Habsburgs!
The male-line descendants of Queen Juana of Spain were styled as the House of Austria following the patrilineal naming convention, but to my knowledge none of them were born or raised in Austria. Queen Juana's husband and the majority of her children were, however, Dutch by upbringing.
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  #574  
Old 01-31-2020, 05:48 PM
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Gawin, exactly 13.26% of Americans reported German ancestry in 2017's census.
Yet being "German" does not mean the same in the US and here in Europe outside Germany.

So, while you can easily say someone is German American or simply German (when American is included by default) in America and no one would question his or her Americaness (what other word should I use?), when you say the Windsors are Germans you explicitly undermine and question their Britishness.
Yes, had some interesting experiences in that regard. While living in the States, we once met a couple at a social function that proudly told us they were Dutch (without knowing we are Dutch), so when I inquired about their Dutch language skills and passports etc, it became clear that they weren't Dutch at all. They were of Dutch descent (4th generation or so), which is very different from being Dutch...

I'd say the same applies to the royal families... If they no longer are citizen of that country nor speak the language and know little about the culture of their ancestors (from first-hand experience), they are no longer German.
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  #575  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:38 PM
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After a point don't almost all of the Royal Houses of Europe go back to Queen Victoria and King Christian of Denmark? I think except maybe Belgium?

So..none of them are really pure anything (Welsh, English etc etc) by 'genetics'.



LaRae

The King of the Belgians is a descendant of King Christian IX via his grandmother, Queen Astrid. His father is Queen Elizabeth II's third cousin (as QEII also descends from Christian IX via Queen Alexandra).



The King of the Nerherlands is not a descendant of either Queen Victoria or King Christian IX.
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  #576  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:45 PM
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The male-line descendants of Queen Juana of Spain were styled as the House of Austria following the patrilineal naming convention, but to my knowledge none of them were born or raised in Austria. Queen Juana's husband and the majority of her children were, however, Dutch by upbringing.

I believe Queen Juana's husband as well as her children were more French than Dutch. At least, French was the first language of Emperor Charles V (and of the Burgundian court) even though he probably spoke some Flemish having grown up in Belgium (standard Dutch didn't exist yet as we know it at that time).



Charles V's brother, the future Emperor Ferdinand I, was born and raised in Spain though and was probably more Spanish than Belgian or Austrian/German. Nonethetless, he became Archduke of Austria, King of Bohemia and the Holy Roman Emperor whereas Charles who, at first, apparently could only barely speak Spanish became the King of Spain.



I wonder what this thread has to do with the future of the British monarchy though.
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  #577  
Old 01-31-2020, 08:08 PM
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All these info is very interesting and informative.

But as Mbruno said earlier, I was also wondering what these have to do with the future of the British Monarchy.
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  #578  
Old 02-01-2020, 04:57 AM
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All these info is very interesting and informative.

But as Mbruno said earlier, I was also wondering what these have to do with the future of the British Monarchy.
Some of the genealogy has gone off on tangents but there is an important underlying factor IMO, which I mentioned previously. There are those (not on this forum) who wish to cast our BRF as 'foreign' for political reasons, mostly republicanism. Therefore it's important for their survival that people know how British they actually are.
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  #579  
Old 02-01-2020, 01:15 PM
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Some of the genealogy has gone off on tangents but there is an important underlying factor IMO, which I mentioned previously. There are those (not on this forum) who wish to cast our BRF as 'foreign' for political reasons, mostly republicanism. Therefore it's important for their survival that people know how British they actually are.
Yes indeed. Always strikes me as weird that some republicans(who often consider themselves so modern& progressive) make such blatantly xenophobic comments.
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  #580  
Old 02-01-2020, 02:24 PM
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Some of the genealogy has gone off on tangents but there is an important underlying factor IMO, which I mentioned previously. There are those (not on this forum) who wish to cast our BRF as 'foreign' for political reasons, mostly republicanism. Therefore it's important for their survival that people know how British they actually are.
While the Ďforeigní argument could be trotted out for previous monarchs and even for future King Charles, I think that thanks to Diana Spencer and Catherine Middleton this will no longer work. Everyone knows how British Diana and Catherineís bloodlines are.
Even the staunchest republicans would be hard pressed to claim that future King George VII isnít British enough, with Diana, Carole and Mike as 3/4 of his grandparents.
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