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  #541  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
Why do you put so much meaning to things like coronations, crowns etc. Look at monarchies like the Netherlands or Norway, they don't do that and don't care about this stuff yet the monarchies there remain strong. Majority of the people still see something in this institution so they carry on.

"For everything to stay the same, everything must change"
So it's up to the monarchy's ability to adapt to changes in the socio-political sphere and to respond to the people's needs and desires, to survive.

Well, in the Netherlands the ermine and the insignia of State (crown, orb, sceptre, sword-of-state etc.) are still very much in use for an Investiture: https://www.ppe-agency.com/500px/May...PE13060542.jpg


And the Investiture was a quite ceremonial affair, not really a difference with the UK.
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  #542  
Old 01-27-2020, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
Are there any reasons known, why this is the case?

It reminds me of this story, that the English monarchs were Emperor of India too, but prefered the title King (?)/Queen of England. It was at some time discussed here in the forums - I believe in the Queen Victoria thread...
Not sure why the Scottish crown is never worn. It was used to crown Scottish monarchs.

The title Emperor of India was only used within the Indian Empire as far as I'm aware. It was a deliberate political attempt to establish some sort of continuity with the previous Mughal rulers. It was not considered a higher title than king anyway, just an alternate name for a monarch. British/English attitudes towards imperial styles are different from many continental traditions.
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  #543  
Old 01-27-2020, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
The monarchy has survived since 1066. I don't see it being brought down with recent scandals. What might bring it down is immigration - I saw people who'd immigrated from other countries saying that England was a multicultural country and that it had no real history of its own. It's up on a youtube video. Now if the majority of the country doesn't feel England has any history of any importance they might think the monarchy doesn't have any importance and get rid of it.


But that would be far into the future. And there would have to be a large influx of people who felt no ties to the UK.
I wouldn't believe everything you see on you tube. Plenty of people in England who love their history & their land in a non showy quiet way.
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  #544  
Old 01-30-2020, 06:03 AM
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Unlike now, where as Elizabeth II is half Scottish, Victoria was not half Indian. The reason why she is queen of Scotland is because a Scottish king became King of England.
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  #545  
Old 01-30-2020, 07:32 AM
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There's a lot of rubbish on You Tube! I have never, ever heard anyone say that the United Kingdom hasn’t got any history. Every single day, thousands, and at the weekends more like millions, of people, both from the UK and abroad, visit historic sites. The National Trust, English Heritage and its counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and privately-owned sites are huge organisations. Anyone who's ever waited in a queue to get into a palace on a Bank Holiday can testify to that :-) .

Immigration isn't going to bring down the monarchy – there’ve been waves of immigration for centuries and centuries. Why would the monarchy not be compatible with being a multicultural country? The monarchy represents everyone. I think it's actually quite dangerous to suggest that people would not be loyal to the monarchy because they have an immigrant background - it sounds as if whoever made that video was trying to stir up trouble.

The title of Empress/Emperor of India was partly about prestige, partly an attempt to show some sort of continuity with the Mughals, as Durham said … and also, depending on what you believe, possibly because Queen Victoria had got the needle that her daughter was going to be Empress of Germany (although TBH I can’t imagine her being childish enough to worry about that!). It was also first used at a time of great competition between rival powers – Britain always suspected Russia of wanting to invade India, and there was a lot of competition between Britain, France, and, increasingly, Germany, in Asia.
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  #546  
Old 01-30-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by padams2359 View Post
Unlike now, where as Elizabeth II is half Scottish, Victoria was not half Indian. The reason why she is queen of Scotland is because a Scottish king became King of England.
Elizabeth II is half-Scottish and half-German, while Victoria was purely German by ethnicity. Just like the DoE, which means Charles and his siblings are 3/4 German and 1/4 Scottish/Scottish and English. Funny thing with the ethnicity of royal families, though not uncommon thing in the past to have a foreign dynasty on the throne.
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  #547  
Old 01-30-2020, 09:18 AM
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Not that it is really that pertinent anymore but the British Isles have had migrations there since time immemorial. The Celts, the Anglo-Saxons, the Danes, the Iceni and the Picts among many others. That's without the Roman influence too.

Stonehenge is a very big draw for tourists among many other places that reflect on the UK's history far back into ancient times. When we really think about it, all of us have come from somewhere else at sometime in history.

The monarchy as it is known today has survived many, many changes, many upheavals and many changes to its overall society through the years and I don't see that going away any time soon.
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  #548  
Old 01-31-2020, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
Elizabeth II is half-Scottish and half-German, while Victoria was purely German by ethnicity. Just like the DoE, which means Charles and his siblings are 3/4 German and 1/4 Scottish/Scottish and English. Funny thing with the ethnicity of royal families, though not uncommon thing in the past to have a foreign dynasty on the throne.
How is Elizabeth II 'half-German'? If you're talking about ethnicity, given that it is mainly about nationality, religion, language, customs etc, isn't it more accurate to say that Elizabeth II is half-English, half-Scottish and 100% British? She was born & grew up here. Both of her parents and all four of her grandparents were born in the UK. The birthplace, nationality, religion & language of British monarchs has been English since George III.
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  #549  
Old 01-31-2020, 05:27 AM
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Lilyflo, I meant only ethnicity. I'm not saying you have a German queen. That would be silly. But two of her grandparents had grandparents who had grandparents, and so on, you'll find at some point that were all German "born and raised". Well, almost all, cause there were some Hungarians, Danes... But generally, they were of German origin. Not Anglo-Saxon nor Scottish, that's for sure. Same for the DoE - German by ethnic origin (with Danish, Czech and Polish exceptions).


So, what I wanted to say is that the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (aka Windsor) family's (and the Oldenburgs's) origins are in Germany, as were the Hanovers's (even more!). Except for their blood links to the Scottish Stuarts and English Tudors, of course, from which they derive their position on the throne. Fun fact here is that when George Louis of Hanover acceeded to the British throne as George I, there were several dozens of people who were closer relations by blood to his predecessor than he was.
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  #550  
Old 01-31-2020, 06:40 AM
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The Tudors were originally Welsh, not English, if you want to be accurate :-) . However, that was in the 15th century. And the Queen Mother's mother was English, not Scottish and indeed had distant Dutch ancestry through an ancestor who came over with William of Orange. And Prince Philip's grandmother was Russian, although the Romanovs had been intermarrying with German royal families for generations before she was born.

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to the future of the monarchy, though, and I do think it's very dangerous to label someone as "foreign" because of where their grandparents or great-grandparents or umpteen-times-great-grandparents came from. Surely any question about the future of the monarchy relates to some people thinking (wrongly, IMHO!) that having a hereditary head of state is anachronistic, not to immigration.
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  #551  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
The Tudors were originally Welsh, not English, if you want to be accurate :-) . However, that was in the 15th century. And the Queen Mother's mother was English, not Scottish and indeed had distant Dutch ancestry through an ancestor who came over with William of Orange. And Prince Philip's grandmother was Russian, although the Romanovs had been intermarrying with German royal families for generations before she was born.

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to the future of the monarchy, though, and I do think it's very dangerous to label someone as "foreign" because of where their grandparents or great-grandparents or umpteen-times-great-grandparents came from. Surely any question about the future of the monarchy relates to some people thinking (wrongly, IMHO!) that having a hereditary head of state is anachronistic, not to immigration.
It's all really fun facts. Genealogy.

The Nassaus, from whom William of Orange was, were actually also a German dynasty, with some French origin too. The Romanovs, too, were ethnically distant from the Russian people. They hailed from, surprise, Germany! So, Prince Philip's grandmother was a Russian royal princess, was Orthodox and even spoke Russian (but as her first language?) but had only a small drop of Russian in her blood.
That's clearly offtopic, though still interesting.
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  #552  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:28 AM
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Yep, those German dynasties got everywhere! Portugal and Brazil. Belgium. Greece, via Denmark. Romania. Bulgaria. All over :-) !
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  #553  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
The Tudors were originally Welsh, not English, if you want to be accurate :-) . However, that was in the 15th century. And the Queen Mother's mother was English, not Scottish … and indeed had distant Dutch ancestry through an ancestor who came over with William of Orange. And Prince Philip's grandmother was Russian, although the Romanovs had been intermarrying with German royal families for generations before she was born.

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to the future of the monarchy, though, and I do think it's very dangerous to label someone as "foreign" because of where their grandparents or great-grandparents or umpteen-times-great-grandparents came from. Surely any question about the future of the monarchy relates to some people thinking (wrongly, IMHO!) that having a hereditary head of state is anachronistic, not to immigration.
The question of ethnicity within the BRF is very important to some people who would use it to further their political agenda. George V understood its importance when he changed the family name from a German one to an English one, to reflect the family's nationality & loyalty. It's vital that the monarch reflects what it is to be British in its religion, language, nationality & customs. It's also vital that they show respect to the cultures of immigrants too. The Queen is excellent at doing both and it appears that Prince Charles will be too.

Amongst all the talk of heritage & origins, it's also worth pointing out that the last British monarch to be born outside of England was George II in 1683 - almost 350 years ago.
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  #554  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
The question of ethnicity within the BRF is very important to some people who would use it to further their political agenda. George V understood its importance when he changed the family name from a German one to an English one, to reflect the family's nationality & loyalty. It's vital that the monarch reflects what it is to be British in its religion, language, nationality & customs. It's also vital that they show respect to the cultures of immigrants too. The Queen is excellent at doing both and it appears that Prince Charles will be too.

Amongst all the talk of heritage & origins, it's also worth pointing out that the last British monarch to be born outside of England was George II in 1683 - almost 350 years ago.
I really think this "The RF are Germans" Is a bit sily and wildy outdated..Yes they were of German origin in part but they have all been born in the UK as you say for the last couple of hundred years. .
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  #555  
Old 01-31-2020, 08:33 AM
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How a Crown that has had British born Monarchs since Geo lll can be described as 'German' l don't know.. how long must a family wait to be 'naturalised' in 'anyone's book' ?
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  #556  
Old 01-31-2020, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
How a Crown that has had British born Monarchs since Geo lll can be described as 'German' l don't know.. how long must a family wait to be 'naturalised' in 'anyone's book' ?
It depends on one's politics I suppose. For my Jacobite ancestors (whose heritage was Celtic & Norman) no amount of time would have sufficed to accept the Hanovers. I suspect my English ancestors had a shorter time-scale but only when it suited them. When Lady Diana Spencer married in to the BRF, her father delighted in telling the press that the Spencers were a much older English family than the Windsors. Mostly though, it seems to me that (outside of this forum) those who persist in the "German Royal Family" label are republicans who perhaps seek to paint the BRF as not really British anyway.
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  #557  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:31 AM
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The same could be said about the Jacobites :-) :

James II and VII, son of Henrietta Maria of France, grandson of Anne of Denmark.
James Edward - either the Old Pretender or James III and VIII, depending on your viewpoint, son of Mary Beatrice of Modena, grandson of Henrietta Maria of France, great-grandson of Anne of Denmark.
Charles Edward … can't be bothered typing it all out again, but he was the son of Maria Sobieska of Poland.

How very rude of Earl Spencer! His family would still have been farming sheep if they hadn't got close to the later Stuarts and the Hanoverians.
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  #558  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:44 AM
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Nationality and ethnic identity is different in different societies. Take the immigrant nations, like the US or Canada, for example. There, you can be easily American (no one would ever question that) and Jewish, Irish, Polish or German at the same time. And being Irish or Polish or Chinese does not make you less American.

Things are different in monoethnic states like Finland, Japan, where 90-sth% of the population have common ethnic background. A child of, let's say African immigrants is not so easily and fully considered fellow member of one's nation, even when born and raised here. Of course, he or she is in a way Finnish or Japanese, but of foreign extraction.

I don't think the British people consider their royal family as foreign. Most of them don't even know of their German origins.

As for the Jacobites, their Catholicism made them to search for brides outside Germany, I think. Hence Italy, Poland...
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  #559  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:57 AM
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No i don't think that people think of the RF as "foreign" exacly but the rather tired old !"The RF are German" is still repeated.
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  #560  
Old 01-31-2020, 10:07 AM
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I agree. As an American whose own ancestors were European immigrants, I'm baffled by the claim that the BRF is German. You could say most Americans aren't American.
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