The British Royal Family: Race & Racism

[Osipi]

I love a good, intelligent discussion. Its what brings me back to TRF day in and day out. With information coming here from around the world, I get to broaden my own points of view, listen to other people's points of view and maybe, just maybe, find myself changing what I think because I've learned something.

First off, I'm going to start with the discussion about Harry wearing the swastika as a young and impetuous lad. What instantly comes to mind for the majority of us is the connotation of that symbol back to more recent times of WWII and the Third Reich. Its also possible that, with this being a global society here with people from all over the world participating, they wouldn't have drawn the same meaning. Everything comes from somewhere else and in selecting the swastika as a symbol, the Third Reich used a much, much older symbol as their own. A simple google for the word swastika gives us more insight.

The swastika is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it has been and remains a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck,but in the 1930s, it became the main feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan race identity, and as a result, it has become stigmatized in the West by association with ideas of racism, hatred, and mass murder.

As time passes, words, symbols, language, items of jewelry and even historical monuments can change and take on different meanings for different people like we see happened with the swastika. If you jumped into a time machine back to the Dark Ages and kept referring to something being "politically correct", no one would have a clue what you're talking about.

With 7.4 billion people on this planet and growing, its the nature of the beast to form into communities and identify with them. Small groups grow into larger groups and are given labels that identify themselves such as "aristocracy", "republicans", "democrats", "new agers" and "millennials" and the list can go on and on. The more people there are, the further we get from identifying ourselves as a whole as "the human race". The truth though is that all of us, every person on this planet right now, if they wanted to and took the time, could trace their lineage back to one woman that lived 200,000 years ago in Africa named "Lucy".

I had to seriously laugh when it was discovered that both Harry and Meghan have a common ancestor in a long dead Duke of Clarence. All of us here, no matter where we come from, could trace our lineages back to a point where we found a ancestor in common with both Harry and Meghan also. Its just how far back we have to go to find it. This is an interesting article I found. To be really extra special and you're of any kind of European descent, it would be to claim "I am not in anyway related to royalty or the aristocracy".

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford

So in conclusion, we all come from somewhere and it makes up who we are and we all have differences in how we look at ourselves as we identify with each other from our own life experiences. Its part of the human experience. Perhaps it'd take an invasion by little green men from the planet Xorgos to really put things back into perspective for then it would be us "humans" against those "Xorgosians". 1,000 years from now that may be what graces the history books.

Was Princess Michael being racist wearing that brooch? I can't say. I'm not her. I don't know what she thinks or even how she perceived that brooch in her jewelry box or how she acquired it and what meaning it has for her.

 

[M. Payton]

I don't see the need to keep hashing this out. X folks think it is racist and/or in bad taste. Other folks consider it art and don't think it's offensive.

Ne'er the twain shall meet. Why keep arguing about it?


LaRae

You Pranter of everyone here has said it best and I thank you for that. We are all human and all have very different opinions on *Everything* in our lives, since the *twain shall never meet* lets put this to rest and move on to much more mature and intelligent topics.

 

[jacqui24]

Bottom line is that while I’m not interested in making assumptions about what PMK’s intentions are wearing that brooch, I also don’t agree with those that are flatly denying this is offensive to others because it’s art. It is offensive because that history exists and the connotations that this type of jewelry links to.

 

[Queen Claude]

First off, I'm going to start with the discussion about Harry wearing the swastika as a young and impetuous lad. What instantly comes to mind for the majority of us is the connotation of that symbol back to more recent times of WWII and the Third Reich. Its also possible that, with this being a global society here with people from all over the world participating, they wouldn't have drawn the same meaning. Everything comes from somewhere else and in selecting the swastika as a symbol, the Third Reich used a much, much older symbol as their own. A simple google for the word swastika gives us more insight.

The swastika is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it has been and remains a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck,but in the 1930s, it became the main feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan race identity, and as a result, it has become stigmatized in the West by association with ideas of racism, hatred, and mass murder.

As time passes, words, symbols, language, items of jewelry and even historical monuments can change and take on different meanings for different people like we see happened with the swastika. If you jumped into a time machine back to the Dark Ages and kept referring to something being "politically correct", no one would have a clue what you're talking about.

Yes the origins of the swastika precede the Third Reich but when Harry sported it, it had nothing to do with the ancient origins of that symbol.

 

[Princess Larisa]

I hope my fellow TRF members will not let me down. And although we might disagree on certain aspects of the discussion, we will do it civilly.

I admire the mods optimism in opening this thread, but going by recent history I give it 24 hours before it’s closed.

 

[Pranter]

You Pranter of everyone here has said it best and I thank you for that. We are all human and all have very different opinions on *Everything* in our lives, since the *twain shall never meet* lets put this to rest and move on to much more mature and intelligent topics.

Thanks M. Payton


IMO, people can argue about a dress or what title Harry is going to get and while things get heated no one is harboring any ill will against another person about it.

I fear this discussion will cause permanent hard feelings. I really don't want to see folks I enjoy talking to (even when we don't agree) leave over something like this.

This subject is way too personal/sensitive to discuss in a anon setting.


LaRae

 

[Nico]

So in other words, this thread was opened by the Mods on the understanding that everybody agreed with the Mods? Anyone who doesn’t feel it was a racist move will just be sidelined, mocked or have their posts removed?

Very Animal Farm.

Exactly !
How typical

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I think this thread is a good idea to tackle the issue of racism but I do agree with those at the same time who have said that it seems to be going round in circles. I hope this thread doesn't end up being closed though, because it is insightful to talk about the BRF and racism/race.

Well, that settles that than.

I love it when people of a particular race (and or sex) , tell another particular race (and or sex) what they should and should not be offended by. You know, cause its art and all that.

Thanks for the heads up.

Hear, hear.

Just because it's art isn't an excuse for racism.

 

[M. Payton]

So in other words, this thread was opened by the Mods on the understanding that everybody agreed with the Mods? Anyone who doesn’t feel it was a racist move will just be sidelined, mocked or have their posts removed?

Very Animal Farm.

Just how and where does it say Gaudette that we all have to agree with the mods here? I do not see it written down here at all, I have my opinion as you have yours yet no body wants you to agree with them unless you make that decision to do so.

I for one applaud the mods for opening a thread for this discussion for I really hated all the other threads being shut down and closed and high jacked all the time........we are adults here, maybe ....right! Any one who does not like to discuss any subject is free to leave and go about their own business elsewhere.......IMHO this thread will hopefully bring a better understanding of the subject and that it will make all us here more understanding of each other.....

 

[Gaudete]

Zonk’s statement tells me all I need to know. “I love it when...”. In other words, this thread is a restricted one. Only women of colour need reply as only their opinion counts. The lack of respect shown to posters with a different point of view with that statement was uncalled for. Which means I’ll be leaving this thread. I’m not sure what will be achieved by keeping this topic open other than to alienate certain posters who don’t feel their opinions are welcome.

 

[M. Payton]

I don't get that from Zonk's statement......what right does anyone, male or female, black or white or tan or red have the right to tell another sex, color, religion or nationality the way to feel or think about anything.........no one has that right ever.

And believe me I would never take it upon myself to tell anyone how they should feel or think about anything. I am a fiercely independent lady and have never believed in joining clicks, clubs, gangs, groups or parties that are restricted in what people should do, feel or think. I firmly believe that each of us has our own mind and therefore with reasonable intelligence and research can and do form our own opinions here or elsewhere in life.....that dear Gaudete is what is being called an *outsider* or a free thinker in my opinion. I agree here with some and still disagree with the same person on other subjects for we can not all think alike.

And yes this thread should be restricted to one subject as I for one do not want all the threads to be closed, high jacked or shut down all the time. Nothing wrong in that for there are threads on everything now, even food!

 

[Osipi]

Beautifully put sis. Maybe its human nature to think that because we see things as the "truth", we should tell everyone else our "truth" (about anything) and that's just how it should be. The fact, though, is that there isn't one "truth". We all find our own "truths" through experience and knowledge and wisdom. Doesn't make it "truth" for everybody else though. We can present what we know is "truth" for us but to expect everyone else to see it that way is pretty close minded. We all make mistakes doing this. Another reason why no human being is perfect.

 

[caethi]

In my view, racism is still very present in our society. Situations like PM's brooch-wearing arise (at best) from ignorance. People of colour live with the impact this ignorance every day. For the BRF, I suspect it may be at times challenging to have to confront their own perspectives and feelings about race, no matter how kind and welcoming they are to Meghan or any other racialized person who enters the family. I am not accusing anyone of acting in a racist manner, but if people confront few people of diverse backgrounds in their everyday lives, they often have to rethink a lot of their basic assumptions of life when they do. I think the Queen will be more sensitive and accepting than most, given her extensive and worldly connections. In the end the BRF is essentially an upper class family, subject to many upper class sensibilities--Meghan will challenge many of those. It's about time someone did.

 

[Grandma828]

This subject has been a revelation to me. I am in my 80's and I had never heard of Blackamoor art. Our family looks like a rainbow. Two first cousins are married to black men and their descendants have very different shades of skin. Two are married to Mexican immigrants. One of the men had 9 children by his first marriage(mexican). She had 5 (white) children by her first marriage. My husband has 3 first cousins married to native americans.We also have, members from Japan. Korea, Asia. Two great nieces are married to black men. Not one of them knows anything about blackamoor art. My hope for the world is that everyone can meld together into one big family. Family reunions can be really fun when there is no hatred.

 

[MARG]

The mere fact that the youthful stupidity of Harry twenty-three years ago has been dredged up to support someone's point of view is a sure indicator that no good will come of such a thread.

It stands for everything the TRF does not or at least did not once upon a time. It is a simmering cauldron of hate, intolerance, hurt, anger, self-righteousness and any other negative emotion out there.

The media storm over the brooch is chip paper as is the flutter over Meghan's engagement gown. Whatever will be used to sustain this thread.

Just because we can have a thread such as this does not mean we should.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I don't see the need to keep hashing this out. X folks think it is racist and/or in bad taste. Other folks consider it art and don't think it's offensive.

Ne'er the twain shall meet. Why keep arguing about it?


LaRae

Because sometimes information that one person didn't have before is shared or a viewpoint is expressed in a way that makes someone think about it in a different way.

 

[M. Payton]

Marg>>>
And if we don't have such a thread then how can we discuss and learn and teach each other the differences in our lives and opinions?

We need to talk like mature adults here, not animals trying to make everyone think alike to suit their own purposes. We all need to learn more tolerance and get a better understanding of racism or what ever subject comes up.

To me this is an honest attempt at learning and growing for those that want to do so. If others try to get out of control and high jack the thread then the mods will shut it down in a second as they said.

And first, I do not want anyone to think like me, I have enough problems in being me ........so all opinions are I believe as the mods have said are welcome from everybody........

 

[M. Payton]

This is exactly what’s wrong with this thread. It’s designed to allow posters who don’t agree with other posters to proclaim those with a different point of view as racists. The self righteous declaration that if we disagree with the established view of this incident then we aren’t decent or caring people is hardly welcoming of debate is it? This isn’t about debate. This is about shaming people who have a different view. Which isn’t what I came here for.

Now that is YOUR OPINION here and I would hope that everyone that comes here can and does express their own opinion. Nobody can think like another person here or anywhere................first and for most we are each of us very different individuals here........nobody, not the mods, or any other person here has called another person a racist here all because of different views...you formed that opinion all by yourself.

I do not agree with the established views ever, most of the time they do not make sense to me........hey, that is me not anyone else here. So off I go to form my own opinion all the time and have. I agree with some of your comments and some I don't so what does that make me.....IMHO my very own person with my very own opinion as it should be. As yours should be......so what subject is at hand that we can all talk about here?

 

[Nico]

It's pretty clear that the brooch "incident" is just a pretext. Seems obvious that this kind of event (aka Meghan vs one of the member of the "old guard") was deeply wished by some because it fits with their very own agenda and their conception of the dear ol'Europe. Let's face it, Meghan is becoming a symbol of some kind of social revenge toward the utimate frontier of the Establishment : the British Monarchy. I would ad it's more or less another cultural battle between the Old world and the New one...

We must not forget the manipulative side of this case, as we saw the pics of the infamous lunch without any trouble. Days after some rags told us when to be offended and how to be offended. Of course ! Some were looking for this exact kind of incident :this brooch was a blessing in some circles (i bet they were waiting for some kind of racy jokes from Philip instead) and Princess "Pushy" Michael ? The sherry on the cake.

I wish Meghan good luck to be a "breath of fresh air", really. I 'm more worried about some of her most fervent supporters ...

 

[LadyGlendower]

Was Princess Michael being racist wearing that brooch? I can't say. I'm not her. I don't know what she thinks or even how she perceived that brooch in her jewelry box or how she acquired it and what meaning it has for her.

And this is what intrigues and annoys me about her choice. It's an interesting piece of jewelry because of its historical reference. But I have no real understanding of English/Continental aristocratic sensibilities in this area having never lived the life. I'm a common American, and it is not a choice I would have made for what to me are obvious reasons---and would avoid anything that even had a faint possibility of being offensive to anyone at the gathering.

However, I think the Queen herself may have been the best judge of what happened here and there may/may not have been a subsequent conversation between her and Princess Michael. I don't know.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I have always gotten the most out of these forums on any thread and any topic when:
* Someone corrected me when factually wrong or wanting. I felt embarrassed, but was far better for the correction!
* Someone disagreed with me with a really cogent argument
* Something someone wrote about challenged me to go find something out on my own
* One of the real masters of a topic shared information in a really wonderful-to-read way

I get the least out of these Forums when people are just agreeing or repeating things. It may feel good emotionally when people agree with me, but is not very satisfying for me. At most it means I was persuasive. But it does not mean I was right.

But I also am very comfortable with honest disagreement. So few issues have a single correct answer these days. Depth of understanding the other POV is always beneficial IMO.

Which is why I see the value in this thread. But I understand completely that not everyone feels this, and that's OK. Because it is a big tent.

 

[Jacknch]

Please be reminded of the following request mentioned in the opening post of this thread:

Accusations of racism against any member of the forum, journalists/reporters or other entities outside of the forum will be removed - members are requested to report any posts they take issue with rather than responding to them within the thread.

Posts implying that other members are racist will be deleted without notice.

 

[Ish]

The British Royal Family: Race & Racism

This is exactly what’s wrong with this thread. It’s designed to allow posters who don’t agree with other posters to proclaim those with a different point of view as racists. The self righteous declaration that if we disagree with the established view of this incident then we aren’t decent or caring people is hardly welcoming of debate is it? This isn’t about debate. This is about shaming people who have a different view. Which isn’t what I came here for.

I disagree, Guadete. I don't think Zonk was saying anything along those lines - you are at liberty to disagree with her, and I don't think it means that you are a racist. In fact, if you re-read the initial post opening this thread, it explicitly states that accusing other posters of being racist will not be allowed in this thread. Absolutely no one is being accused of racism, so far as I've seen, and if you disagree please report the post(s) that you feel do so.

I'm not going to put words or thoughts into Zonk's mouth, but I think that people who are not of a disenfranchised group have a tendency to take personal offense when members of a disenfranchised group say that something is offensive to them. In my opinion, that's typically because they (the not-disenfranchised person) don't see (or don't want to see) how society is set up more in their favour and think that the disenfranchised person's offense is a personal attack. I don't think it is, not the majority of the time. People of colour aren't saying "x is offensive" because they want to attack white people, but rather because they want to de-disenfranchise themselves (I realize that's not a word, but simply "enfranchise" didn't seem to work in the context).

I am not a person of colour. In fact am the whitest person imaginable - I can spend a week on the beach in Hawaii and emerge with skin the colour of either snow or a lobster, depending on how good my sunscreen is. And I definitely don't always get why something is offensive. But I think it's important to listen when a person of colour says that something is offensive to them. Just because I don't necessarily see why something is offensive doesn't mean it isn't offensive - and it's only by listening to the person who finds it offensive that we can move forward and progress. The only way we can actually achieve a society where the colour of a person's skin doesn't matter is for white people to sit down and listen to people of colour when they say something is offensive, and then adjust their behaviour accordingly.

 

[wyevale]

Posts implying that other members are racist will be deleted without notice.

IF you REALLY imagined this 'wouldn't be a problem' on a thread devoted to so contentious a subject then the lack of forethought by whomever thought this crackpot idea up is ASTOUNDING...

 

[Osipi]

I knew it! I just knew that the day would come when blowing my brain cells off in the 60s and 70s would come to good use. You see, I am a hippie relic. I admit to it. I revel in it. It was a time where it was *the* thing to do was to jump on the bandwagon protesting social injustices all around us. I do think a lot of that wrought some changes in outlooks and attitudes but one generational social construct known as "hippies" were quickly forgotten and became an "era" but social issues and social injustices continue to this day.

In fact, I would even say they're more prevalent now than they were then. Back then, we were protesting against what could be seen as being acceptable, normal attitudes. Today its more complex, more radical, more an "us" vs. "them", more personal and definitely more violent. Among other people I know, its a feeling that the world has gone mad and the less we have to deal with it, the better.

We see this even today where the discussion isn't on The British Royal Family: Race and Racism, but should this thread even be allowed to be opened. I'm reminded of a Canadian group called The Five Man Electrical Band who first released the song "Signs" in 1970. It reflects the era in which us hippie relics thrived. Perhaps we need a "hippie revival"?

As far as the British royal family and their attitudes and their thoughts and intentions, the fact remains that we do not know how these people think. What their private attitudes are. We only know that Meghan has been warmly accepted into being a future member of the family by what they have actually said and quoted verbatim. All the rest comes to us from the media, which we know from experience, has their own agenda.

(walks off singing Signs and flashing the peace sign)

And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"

Full lyrics to Signs: Lyrics for "Signs" by Five Man Electrical Band

 

[M. Payton]

Wyevale
And the only people that think this thread should not be are the very ones that seem to form an opinion based on not trying to understand the situation at all.

Is it better to keep things hidden and swept under the rug then to have an open discussion on them? I am for having an open discussion and being open minded for that to me is the very way I learn as an individual person so that I can form a mature intelligent opinion.

I am not very good at sweeping things under the rug.....I so hate a dirty house, just ask my sister.

 

[Dani257]

Posts implying that other members are racist will be deleted without notice.

IF you REALLY imagined this 'wouldn't be a problem' on a thread devoted to so contentious a subject then the lack of forethought by whomever thought this crackpot idea up is ASTOUNDING...

Um, why would anyone say they'd delete posts that did this, UNLESS they thought it could be a problem? You don't make a point of warning people about something that you don't think will be a problem.

 

[wyevale]

^ I would have thought the Moderators QUITE busy enough, without creating a thread GUARANTEED to sow division/resentment and MORE work 'policing' than they could possibly want !

 

[Dani257]

Wyevale
And the only people that think this thread should not be are the very ones that seem to form an opinion based on not trying to understand the situation at all.

Is it better to keep things hidden and swept under the rug then to have an open discussion on them? I am for having an open discussion and being open minded for that to me is the very way I learn as an individual person so that I can form a mature intelligent opinion.

I am not very good at sweeping things under the rug.....I so hate a dirty house, just ask my sister.

To be honest I find the fact that more than one person are saying the thread shouldn't exist to be disturbing. Sure, some are saying it because of how people conduct themselves in the thread. And that's a valid argument. If it is going to be just name calling and snipping as a whole, than there's no point, and I assume the mods (you know, those who actually have the power to decide whether a thread exists) will shut it down. But, it seems some feel the thread shouldn't exist period. And I find it disturbing that anyone feels racism shouldn't be discussed. Or, rather I find it disturbing that people seem to want to shut down a discussion.

I'm not trying to say that anyone should feel compelled or obligated to come to this thread and join in. But, to me, you could go to threads you feel are worthy of discussing, rather than use this one to not talk about the topic but to talk about why the topic shouldn't exist.

I don't usually use emojis but I feel like giving a visual representation of how I feel right now.

 

[M. Payton]

^ I would have thought the Moderators QUITE busy enough, without creating a thread GUARANTEED to sow division/resentment and MORE work 'policing' than they could possibly want !

The only division and resentment and MORE work policing that the mods have to do is because some do not like this thread and it makes them and the topic very uncomfortable to discuss.

First and foremost the thread will be closed at their discretion not ours. And since neither one of us is a mod who are we to say that this thread is to be nor not to be. What work they do or don't do is really not up to us here is it? We here are here by our own choice, no body dragged you or me here or anyone else .........we all made that choice by ourselves and therefore we can also leave when we want to.

I am thinking that some topics in life make people very uncomfortable and that is where the learning process starts with mature adult discussions.