The British Royal Family: Race & Racism

[jacqui24]

There is NO protection against 'those that WISH to take offence' [in this 'day and age'].

Princess Michael [and anybody] is free to wear whatever she chooses, wherever she chooses, provided 'public decency' is not transgressed.
It is in the nature of a 'free society' that 'Sumptuary laws' are abolished, enabling individuals to wear whatever they choose [such as a chador, or Hijab] despite the fact that their choice may be displeasing to some.

Of corse she’s free to wear it. It’s not against the law, and that’s why she’s not hauled off to jail for it. Free society also means people can react and speak their mind to it. AS a response to their reaction and expressing how offensive this is l, PMK said she will retire it and that’s her choice as well. No one forced her to.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

There is NO protection against 'those that WISH to take offence' [in this 'day and age'].

Princess Michael [and anybody] is free to wear whatever she chooses, wherever she chooses, provided 'public decency' is not transgressed.
It is in the nature of a 'free society' that 'Sumptuary laws' are abolished, enabling individuals to wear whatever they choose [such as a chador, or Hijab] despite the fact that their choice may be displeasing to some.

I agree. We do not know what MM thought about it.

BUT... when you have 2 great-uncles who were Nazis, distant cousins (Charlie Coburg for example) who were Nazis, had access to the BEST education in Great Britain and then claim you do not know what that is around your arm...Harry.....um....no, you don't get a pass.

 

[Nico]

Of course she’s allowed to wear what she’d like- just as people are allowed to respond, pointing out when something is in poor taste or in the case of this brooch, linked to a deeply racist history.

Again this "deeply racist history" doesn't apply to the decorative arts concerning the blackamoors ;

"Blackamoors have a long history in decorative art, stretching all the way back to 17th century Italy and the famous sculptor Andrea Brustolon (1662-1732). They are often mistaken for depictions of the African American slaves and the ornamental pieces that they inspired; however, these decorative gems are distinctly different".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackamoors_(decorative_arts)#cite_note-A_Lesson_In_Time,Collectors-5

We see what we want to see ...

 

[wyevale]

this brooch, linked to a deeply racist history.

ONLY those judging the PAST [and its artifacts] by the Today's notions and woefully misunderstanding the nature of it's art would make such a link...

If you do, that's your prerogative, personally I do not.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

And again let's take a look at the exact definition of a "moor" shall we :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

Exactly, people aren't even looking at what Moor means. Moors aren't black, they're African but not black. The only similarly between Meghan and the brooch is that they both have African roots. Anyways even if you are trying to use the term in a derogatory sense, that would be in relation to Muslims. I honestly don't see the big deal, even as a black person, HRH wore a brooch with Christmas relations that has probably been worn before but no one has said anything before, because they didn't care enough before but now they just have to speak out because they are so "disturbed".

 

[AdmirerUS]

How ridiculous and overly dramatic.

And again let's take a look at the exact definition of a "moor" shall we :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors...one or two members of the BRF that do as well.

 

[Ish]

ONLY those judging the PAST [and its artifacts] by the Today's notions and woefully misunderstanding the nature of it's art would make such a link...

If you do, that's your prerogative, personally I do not.

Ahh, but you can accept that something was art within the time that it was made while also realizing that it no longer needs to be displayed (or the way in which it is displayed should be changed) because it no longer represents the values of the day.

Blackamoor art may not be the same as the depictions of African American slaves, both in their history, nature, and overall context, but they’re still a vestige of society as it was - when people of colour were viewed and treated as less than white people.

Thus, while it might be one thing to admire the craftsmanship of such a piece, or even to think that the piece itself is beautiful, it’s another thing to explicitly wear such a piece. At best it displays a complete ignorance of history and society, at worst it displays a racist attitude. In all likelihood, what it’s displaying is that the person displaying such a piece does not care about how such a piece does represent one of the worst aspects of human society - the general belief that some people are less than others simply because of the colour of their skin.

 

[jacqui24]

Again this "deeply racist history" doesn't apply to the decorative arts concerning the blackamoors ;

"Blackamoors have a long history in decorative art, stretching all the way back to 17th century Italy and the famous sculptor Andrea Brustolon (1662-1732). They are often mistaken for depictions of the African American slaves and the ornamental pieces that they inspired; however, these decorative gems are distinctly different".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackamoors_(decorative_arts)#cite_note-A_Lesson_In_Time,Collectors-5

We see what we want to see ...

It’s interesting how selective you are about this because if you keep reading to the next paragraph, then you’d see that in modern society, it is seen as having racist connotation relating to racism and colonialism.

So you are right in we see why we want to see, but that’s certainly not one sided.

I agree. We do not know what MM thought about it.

BUT... when you have 2 great-uncles who were Nazis, distant cousins (Charlie Coburg for example) who were Nazis, had access to the BEST education in Great Britain and then claim you do not know what that is around your arm...Harry.....um....no, you don't get a pass.

Harry never claimed to not know what that was. He made a bad decision and has since apologized for it. Young people do stupid things and aren’t always considerate or thoughtful. What they find as humorous or interesting just boggles the mind sometimes. And they often see the trot of their ways when they mature as I’m sure we’ all have done things we are embarrassed about when we were young. Although perhaps not on this scale. As long as he doesn’t keep wearing it afterwards and behaves as a decent human being afterwards, I don’t think they should forever be defined by a costume when they are 20.

 

[Nico]

It’s interesting how selective you are about this because if you keep reading to the next paragraph, then you’d see that in modern society, it is seen as having racist connotation relating to racism and colonialism.

So you are right in we see why we want to see, but that’s certainly not one sided.

And , at your turn, if you bother to see the endnotes, you'll see that this sentence is directly linked ...to the PM' brooch affair ! Because until now, again, blackamoor decorative art was not directly linked to racism....

 

[wyevale]

My opinion is unchanged, as I daresay others is..

 

[jacqui24]

Exactly!! For all we know Meghan may have admired the brooch. Just because its a black face doesn't make it racist unless you know the history behind it. If Meghan said she was offended then Princess Michael should have apologised but as Jacqui said people don't need to act outraged for her.

Again, I think Meghan is just being put as a face of it for many who do not have her level of exposure but are offended. This goes beyond Meghan, and is an issue that should be addressed. And in PMK’s apology, she didn’t apologize to Meghan, but rather those who are offended by it, so obviously she understood what is really going on here.

 

[Zonk]

Exactly!! For all we know Meghan may have admired the brooch. Just because its a black face doesn't make it racist unless you know the history behind it. If Meghan said she was offended then Princess Michael should have apologised but as Jacqui said people don't need to act outraged for her.

Well, that settles that than.

I love it when people of a particular race (and or sex) , tell another particular race (and or sex) what they should and should not be offended by. You know, cause its art and all that.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Curbside]

Well, that settles that than.

I love it when people of a particular race (and or sex) , tell another particular race (and or sex) what they should and should not be offended by. You know, cause its art and all that.

Thanks for the heads up.

IKR? If you're offended, you're the one with the problem!

 

[ladongas]

Well, that settles that than.

I love it when people of a particular race (and or sex) , tell another particular race (and or sex) what they should and should not be offended by. You know, cause its art and all that.

Thanks for the heads up.

Thank you for saying this, Zonk.

 

[Jacknch]

Two extracts from Wikipedia:

1) Blackamoor figures are sculptures and other depictions of exoticized figures, usually African males but sometimes other non-European races...often holding a tray or some other container, which was available for practical use[/I]...They often represent a conceit depicting a symbolic servant, and large examples of about half-size were placed on either sides of doorways, as real footmen might be...

Some contemporary craftsmen continue to make individual pieces, but it is rare because of modern issues with the depiction of dark-skinned people as "exotic" and decorative.

The point being that this type of art was created to represent something that in the modern age today can be (and indeed is) offensive to people. The offence people feel should be respected and not dismissed.

Imagine a piece of jewellery was made depicting a prisoner in a war-camp, created to be worn by an SS officer as symbol of his empowerment over those he has imprisoned - it would be offensive for someone to wear such a thing wouldn't it?

 

[cepe]

For what it's worth, I think this thread is a mistake.

Not coming back.

 

[Zonk]

For what it's worth, I think this thread is a mistake.

Not coming back.

Cepe...I hope this means you are not coming back to this thread and not TRF.

But the fact remains

1) Meghan Markel is biracial and she identifies and embraces ALL of heritage (as she should)
2) In 2018, sad as it is...some people still have problems with people of other races and/or religions
3) Since its been announced that Meghan was dating and now marrying into the British Royal Family, and with the advent of social media (and people hiding between keyboards anonymously), some have felt the need to no longer hide their dislike/hatred for those of a particular race and/or religion. I mean some of the posts are just hateful! I don't think I have ever hated anyone or anything that much!
4) The issue of race as it pertains to Meghan and/or the BRF is NOT going away and you can't hide from it.
5) Princess Michael of Kent's decision to wear her Moor brooch at the same time event that Meghan was to attend, whether you agree or not that it was offensive, continues to keep the issue of race in the forefront.

It's like the elephant in the room that won't go away. You can move around it, you can ignore it...but its still there in the corner...staring at you.

For what's its worth, the moderator team though long and hard about creating this thread. And we will shut it down in a HOT SECOND if it gets out of control. TRUST ME ON THAT!

I hope my fellow TRF members will not let me down. And although we might disagree on certain aspects of the discussion, we will do it civilly.

 

[Pranter]

I don't see the need to keep hashing this out. X folks think it is racist and/or in bad taste. Other folks consider it art and don't think it's offensive.

Ne'er the twain shall meet. Why keep arguing about it?


LaRae

 

[HRHHermione]

I’m pleased with the decision by the moderator team to not gloss over or hide from this issue. Ignoring racism doesn’t help people learn to do better. Honest and open conversation is important.

 

[Zonk]

I don't see the need to keep hashing this out. X folks think it is racist and/or in bad taste. Other folks consider it art and don't think it's offensive.

Ne'er the twain shall meet. Why keep arguing about it?


LaRae

I don't know...maybe because we are discussion forum?

I mean if that is the case, why are we still taking about anything? We still discuss the Duke and Duchess of Windsor (their relationship and its impact on the Monarchy) , what type of King Charles/William be, the role of Prince Henrik of Denmark, etc. Any and all of these topics have opposing views.

 

[wyevale]

Ne'er the twain shall meet. Why keep arguing about it?

Amen to that...

 

[Pranter]

This isn't honest and open conversation though...this is just an argument that keeps going around and around ..from the old thread to the new one. Effectively it's just I'm right and you're wrong being posted back and forth.



LaRae

 

[wyevale]

help people learn to do better.

Patronising MUCH ?

 

[jacqui24]

Ne'er the twain shall meet. Why keep arguing about it?


LaRae

Why did we keep arguing about a dress that’s privately purchased? I’d think this topic would be more controversial than that, but the freak out over that was much bigger than this. My issue with it is that somehow that was seen as bad optics, but somehow wearing a brooch with strong connotations of racism and colonism by a member of the royal family to lunch at Buckingham Palace with the Queen and future monarchs is acceptable. Talk about messed up priorities.

ETA: I’m not saying you did this, but just pointing out some themes I’ve noticed on here.

 

[Jacknch]

One of the key reasons why this thread was opened was to contain discussions on the issue of race (in particular pertaining to the fact that Meghan is bi-racial) in one place rather than spread throughout various other threads.

It is a discussion that people appear to have an interest in discussing as and when the topic arises (the British Royal Family Christmas thread is a clear example of an issue arising that did not fit in that thread and was also discussed in a few other threads).

We believe that as time goes on other issues or discussion points relating to the subject will arise in the future.

I am sure members of this Forum can discuss and debate the issue in a mature and productive way.

 

[Ish]

This isn't honest and open conversation though...this is just an argument that keeps going around and around ..from the old thread to the new one. Effectively it's just I'm right and you're wrong being posted back and forth.



LaRae

I agree that there are certainly some (on both sides of the issue) who are seemingly incapable of having an open conversation about this.

However some is not all, and it’s an important conversation to have - not so much for those who want to ignore what anyone else has to say, but for those who are open to hearing what other people have to say and want to make the world better. It’s important that we as people continue talking about the things that are hard to talk about, like racism, otherwise we close ourselves off to change.

Further, in having a thread like this, TRF is clearly designating the place for the conversation about race and racism - that way the threads about the BRF at Christmas, Princess Michael’s jewelry, and really anything to do with Meghan, etc., aren’t completely overrun by the discussion of racism. That way the poster who wants to talk about dresses and tiaras can do so without having to wade through pages of a fight about a broach. But those who want to discuss the issues surrounding the broach have a place to do so.

And let’s be honest here, the issue is not just the broach. Even before Meghan had several threads or ever met PMK, the Harry/Meghan relationship thread was constantly being bogged down with this issue.

The intention of this thread is not to give people a place to fight, but rather a place to have a civil conversation without taking over other threads. If it becomes just a thread full of people fighting, it will be closed down.

 

[wyevale]

Well, i'm with Cepe on this.. and out of here...

 

[Gaudete]

The British Royal Family: Race & Racism

Well, that settles that than.

I love it when people of a particular race (and or sex) , tell another particular race (and or sex) what they should and should not be offended by. You know, cause its art and all that.

Thanks for the heads up.

So in other words, this thread was opened by the Mods on the understanding that everybody agreed with the Mods? Anyone who doesn’t feel it was a racist move will just be sidelined, mocked or have their posts removed?

Very Animal Farm.

 

[Gaudete]

Because that’s exactly the line you’ve taken with that sarcastic intolerant response to a poster who doesn’t agree with what seems to be the party line - anyone who doesn’t feel it was racist won’t be treated with respect, anyone who does feel it was racist can say what they please.

 

[Al_bina]

For what it's worth, I think this thread is a mistake.

Not coming back.

I fully agree with you. Given the previous flare-up, it is not shrewd to dedicate a special thread to the topic. The discussion per se is running in a circle and will do so in the foreseeable future.