The British Nobility thread 1: Ending 2022


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According to the caption Deborah Ababio and Emily Hallie.


Lady Frances von Hofmannsthal attended the gala as well:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 **
 
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Viscountess Weymouth attended the Gold Cup day during the 3rd day of the 2019 Cheltenham Festival:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** gallery **
 
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"Jeannie, Countess of Carnarvon, the mother of the 8th Earl of Carnarvon died on Wednesday night.

Highclere Castle has confirmed that Jean Margaret Herbert (Wallop), Countess of Carnarvon, born on April 29, 1935, died peacefully at home, aged 83."

Jeannie's late husband, the 7th Earl of Carnarvon, was the Queen's friend and racing manager 'Porchie'.

https://www.newburytoday.co.uk/news/news/27035/countess-of-carnarvon-dies.html
 
I have always been fascinated with how the aristocracy live their lives such as their social circles, weekend parties, who they were allowed to date, etc. From reading through this thread it looks like many of them today participate in celebrity style events. I am more interested in the bygone era. I found this book on amazon, and it seems sort of what I am looking for. Also this book seems interesting, but some of the reviews say it does not quite live up to its title. Can anyone recommend any books? Thanks.
 
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I don't know if it belongs here, but an article in today's edition of The Guardian claims that 25,000 landowners (less than 1 % of the population) own half of the land area of England. In particular, members of the "aristocracy" or the gentry own approximately 30 % of the country's land area. Corporations on the other hand own approximately 18 % of England, followed by "oligarchs and City bankers" at 17 %. The land holdings of the Crown and/or the Royal Family (including the Crown estate and the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall) amount to roughly 1.4 % of the land area.


Major landowners mentioned in the article include the Duke of Buccleuch and the Duke of Beaufort.
 
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On May 15, 1513, Charles Brandon was created Viscount Lisle by King Henry VIII. This was in right of Charles' betrothed wife, Elizabeth Grey. Was there not a stipulation in the Grey family that the husband of an heiress could not have a noble title?
 
Mbruno said:
I don't know if it belongs here, but an article in today's edition of The Guardian claims that 25,000 landowners (less than 1 % of the population) own half of the land area of England. In particular, members of the "aristocracy" or the gentry own approximately 30 % of the country's land area. Corporations on the other hand own approximately 18 % of England, followed by "oligarchs and City bankers" at 17 %. The land holdings of the Crown and/or the Royal Family (including the Crown estate and the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall) amount to roughly 1.4 % of the land area.


Major landowners mentioned in the article include the Duke of Buccleuch and the Duke of Beaufort.
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Thank you, this is an extremely eye-opening article. If the estimate that 30% of English land is owned by the aristocracy is accurate, then the exclusion of women from inheritance in most aristocratic families also has tremendous implications for the gender balance of property ownership.




The Minister of Women and Equalities says that her department is "working on" discrimination against daughters in regard to inheritance and courtesy titles. "Courtesy titles" refers to inequality in the titles of spouses, an issue which was broached again in Parliament a few months ago.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...407B-9460-618432125EB0/OralAnswersToQuestions

Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)

In light of recent objection to the Hereditary Titles (Female Succession) Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) that would address the discrimination against daughters when it comes to inheritance, when do the Government intend to end the practice of male primogeniture?

Penny Mordaunt

The Daughters’ Rights campaign was started after one new mum was told that her new arrival being a girl must have been a disappointment to her. This matter and the issue of courtesy titles are complex matters, but we do need to look at them in this modern age. My Department is working on that, and I welcome the Daughters’ Rights campaign.​
 
I am in a quandary where to post this as I'm not sure if a person knighted by the Queen would rate being talked about in the nobility thread or if it should go into the celebrity thread but thinking about the content of the link and its pertinence to the work of several members of the British royal family such as Beatrice and Charles, I've decided to put it here and the moderators can move it to where they deem it fits.

We all know of Sir Richard Branson and his wealth and family and their connections to members of the royal family. I happened to come across this link and found it extremely interesting. It shows just what a person with wealth and opportunity can do to make this planet a better place. Join me as we discover Branson's exploration to the floor of the Great Blue Hole in Belize. Its a first. ?

http://boredomtherapy.com/branson-great-blue-hole/?as=70&bdk=b70&ch=bt
 
I wonder has the Viscount made up with his mother Anna the Marchioness of Bath following her outburst a few years back?
 
 
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All Viscountess Weymouth seems to do is attend parties or lunches.
 
Tatiana Maria said:
The Minister of Women and Equalities says that her department is "working on" discrimination against daughters in regard to inheritance and courtesy titles. "Courtesy titles" refers to inequality in the titles of spouses, an issue which was broached again in Parliament a few months ago.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...407B-9460-618432125EB0/OralAnswersToQuestions

Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)

In light of recent objection to the Hereditary Titles (Female Succession) Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) that would address the discrimination against daughters when it comes to inheritance, when do the Government intend to end the practice of male primogeniture?

Penny Mordaunt

The Daughters’ Rights campaign was started after one new mum was told that her new arrival being a girl must have been a disappointment to her. This matter and the issue of courtesy titles are complex matters, but we do need to look at them in this modern age. My Department is working on that, and I welcome the Daughters’ Rights campaign.​
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There will be a change of government in the UK this summer, so I suppose the "work" will be halted.
 
I am currently reading "The Viceroy's Daughter's" by Ann de Courcy. I usually read about royalty, but I decided to read a book on the aristocracy so I chose the Curzon sisters. It is quite interesting and I have just gotten to the part about Diana Guiness (Mitford). i have been wanting to read a book on the six Mitford sisters, and there are three books I have found on them. I really don't know which one to choose because I really only want to read one. Will someone recommend one to me that they think is the best? If there is one i have not found that is better, please feel free to suggest it. The three are book 1, book 2, and book 3. Thanks.
 
There won't be a change in government, only a change in Prime Minister. There'll only be a change in government if there's a general election and a different party wins, and there isn't due to be an election. I can't see this bill being passed, though - there's just too much other legislation to be dealt with, and it won't be high priority, so it won't be given the necessary time ... which is a shame.
 
duchessrachel said:
I am currently reading "The Viceroy's Daughter's" by Ann de Courcy. I usually read about royalty, but I decided to read a book on the aristocracy so I chose the Curzon sisters. It is quite interesting and I have just gotten to the part about Diana Guiness (Mitford). i have been wanting to read a book on the six Mitford sisters, and there are three books I have found on them. I really don't know which one to choose because I really only want to read one. Will someone recommend one to me that they think is the best? If there is one i have not found that is better, please feel free to suggest it. The three are book 1, book 2, and book 3. Thanks.
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I recommend the Mary Lovell book as the starter. If you're anything like me, once you start reading about them, you'll want to read more & more. I went through a phase a few years ago where I read everything they'd written themselves (the letters are fascinating) including their accounts of their childhood eg Decca's Hons & Rebels & Debo's "Wait For Me".
 
An Ard Ri said:
All Viscountess Weymouth seems to do is attend parties or lunches.
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It seems more of a mix of she isn't really a well known public figure, so the rare time we see her, is at some lunch.

She is actually a business woman, and at least of last year, she still modeled a bit. She has a cook book/show, and hosts lunches at Longleat to promote the line but also local produce and history.

Its like royals, if we based their life off of what we see, we could assume some work maybe once a week for 2 hours, and mainly attend teas and tours.
 
I am in favour of girls inheriting titles in their own right as is already the case in Scotland.
 
Susan D said:
I am in favour of girls inheriting titles in their own right as is already the case in Scotland.
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Some Scottish titles can be inherited by women, but not all of them. The same goes for England - some titles, not all.
 
Yes, it is usually Scottish titles created before the union of the crowns, which allow for female inheritance.

In the UK a lord has been known to petition to allow his daughter to inherit. Louis Mounbattan did for instance. But it only applied to his daughters. The only females in line for the title were his 2 daughters. None of their female descendants are eligible to inherit even after their brothers.

One prime example of a title inherited by women is often seen at royal weddings. Lady Saltoun was at the Cambridge wedding (listed as family) as well as others. Her late husband was the son of Princess Patricia. Lady Saltoun's heir is a daughter as well.

In the case of the Scottish titles that allow it they have 'heirs general' but with male preference given. So if the lord/lady has a son, he will inherit first. But a daughter will inherit over a cousin or Uncle or extended male family. The heir of Lady Saltoun's daughter is her son, the youngest of her 3 kids.

The concern about keeping things in the 'family' is also addressed. In Scotland, you cant inherit the headship of a clan without having the clan name. The heir to the title if female retains her father's name even after marriage, and her eldest son or daughter if heir, is expected to do the same. Mistress Saltoun (the heir) her two daughters have their dad's name, her son is Alexander Fraser to allow him to be chief of the clan after his mother and grandmother.
 
Lilyflo said:
I recommend the Mary Lovell book as the starter. If you're anything like me, once you start reading about them, you'll want to read more & more. I went through a phase a few years ago where I read everything they'd written themselves (the letters are fascinating) including their accounts of their childhood eg Decca's Hons & Rebels & Debo's "Wait For Me".
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Thanks. I will start with that one. I am sure I will end up doing the same thing you did. Once I get interested in something, i have to learn all I can.
 
CyrilVladisla said:
On May 15, 1513, Charles Brandon was created Viscount Lisle by King Henry VIII. This was in right of Charles' betrothed wife, Elizabeth Grey. Was there not a stipulation in the Grey family that the husband of an heiress could not have a noble title?
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It was actually not uncommon when a title went extinct but for the female line, for the title to be re-created for the daughter's husband. Instead of making her Viscountess (or whatever title) in her own right, making her spouse.

This was the case with Charles. Since his wife was the only heir of the former Viscount, in preparation of their marriage, Charles was made Viscount Lisle. When they didn't marry, he had to forefeit the title.

It wasn't the first time this happened with the title either. The title was first created for John Talbot. John Talbot had 2 daughters and one son. His son Thomas inherited the title but he died without any children. His barony was inherited (the lands) by his sisters, but the Viscount was extinct. It was recreated though for his older sister's husband Edward Grey.

Edward had four children, a son John and three daughters. John and his wife were the parents of Elizabeth, Charles' intended husband. Elizabeth's eventual husband never was made Viscount (possibly as she died soon after marriage, never even consummated?). The title was recreated once again for another son in law. Edward's oldest living daughter Elizabeth had married Arthur Plantaganant. Arthur was made Viscount Lisle because of his wife.

Happens with other families. The Duchy of Northumberland for instance. Algernon Percy, Duke of Sommerset died with only a female heir, a daughter Elizabeth. His Dukedom passed to a distant male relative. But his earldom of Northumberland was passed by special remainder to his son in law, Hugh. Hugh changed his name from Smithson to Percy, so the title remained in the Percy family. He was later raised to a Duke. The Smithsonian institute was actually funded by the money of Hugh's natural son James Smithson.
 
Alison H said:
There won't be a change in government, only a change in Prime Minister. There'll only be a change in government if there's a general election and a different party wins, and there isn't due to be an election.
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I think that despite leading the same political party as the outgoing Prime Minister, the new Prime Minister will have the option of appointing a new government and setting new policies, including stopping the work on discrimination in inheritance and courtesy titles. The groundwork for equalizing courtesy titles done whilst another Prime Minister from the same party (Cameron) was in office was apparently put out of the way once Prime Minister May took over, as her equalities minister only endorsed it about two years later.

Alison H said:
I can't see this bill being passed, though - there's just too much other legislation to be dealt with, and it won't be high priority, so it won't be given the necessary time ... which is a shame.
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I can't see a bill being passed, either; a shame indeed. Do you think the matter of courtesy titles could still be dealt with even while men-only inheritance remains, since that issue probably would not require legislation?

Countessmeout said:
In the UK a lord has been known to petition to allow his daughter to inherit. Louis Mounbattan did for instance. But it only applied to his daughters. The only females in line for the title were his 2 daughters. None of their female descendants are eligible to inherit even after their brothers.
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Yes, the letters patent which created his peerages contained a special remainder allowing his daughters and their male heirs to inherit, as it was unlikely at that point that he would have male issue. I am not sure if he needed to petition for the special remainder, as there was a history of issuing special remainders in comparable situations.
 
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