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  #1321  
Old 05-24-2020, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
It is bad that is got corrupted. I love the idea of it just as a tradition. But at least something else nice replaced it.

Yes; remember that scene in Downton Abbey where the Countess of Grantham presents Lady Rose MacClare? It was lovely.
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  #1322  
Old 05-29-2020, 07:56 PM
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Yes; remember that scene in Downton Abbey where the Countess of Grantham presents Lady Rose MacClare? It was lovely.
Yes, it was.
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  #1323  
Old 06-05-2020, 11:16 PM
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Some hereditary peers news - there will be 3 by-elections in the hereditary peers branch of House of Lords to be conducted by 8 September:

The Earl of Selbourne (John Palmer, 4th Earl of Selbourne) - elected as a Conservative peer but recently sat as non-affiliated as of 2019 (could it be because of the opposing views on Brexit? A lot of MPs and peers were so-called "sacked" during the prorogation issue months ago). He retired last March 26.

The Countess of Mar (Margaret of Mar, 31st Countess of Mar) - elected as a Crossbencher and one of the 15 elected by the whole House (and one of the few peeresses holding the peerage in her own right) - retired on May 1.

The Lord Rea (Nicolas Rea, 3rd Baron Rea) - one of the 2 Labour hereditary peers in the House, died on June 1. His son Matthew succeeded to the title.


Who do you think would be the prospective peers who will run? (List of peers eligible, as per the Register of Hereditary Peers)

Interestingly, the Earl of Snowdon (David Armstrong-Jones aka the Queen's nephew) is still in the list despite his controversial run in the by-election in 2018 (I don't know which is more in question - his degree of relationship with the Queen or that he did not submit any statement or CV for candidacy). Do you think that with his pending divorce, the more he'd need the cash? *ehem*

I can also sense the Viscount Stansgate (Stephen Benn, 3rd Viscount) may get elected - either by the whole House replacing the Countess of Mar or by the Labour peer replacing Lord Rea, though interestingly, the other peer present is Lord Granchester. (Viscounts Simon & Hanworth were elected by the whole House) The Viscount Stansgate is the eldest son of former Labour minister Tony Benn, who disclaimed his peerage to stay in the Lords, and the proponent of the Peerage Act 1963. And only that by his death in 2014 that his son reclaimed it for the purpose of getting elected in the Lords.

Or could the House elect The Lord Glenconner (Cody Tennant, 4th Baron), who'll possibly be the youngest peer (he's 25 years old)? He's the grandson of Colin Tennant, 3rd Baron and Lady Anne. His grandma was Princess Margaret's best friend and her lady-in-waiting. (And with a best-selling memoir) Cody ran several times in the Lords for the past years.

HOL By-elections Wiki article
Elected hereditary peers Wiki article
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  #1324  
Old 06-12-2020, 06:00 AM
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Viscount and Viscountess Weymouth appeared at the This Morning TV show today, June 12, to promote the reopening of the Longleat Safari:



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  #1325  
Old 06-12-2020, 06:04 AM
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Alexander and his wife are the current Marquess & Marchioness of Bath since April when his father passed away
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  #1326  
Old 08-01-2020, 09:45 AM
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The late Lord Snowdon's sister in law,The Countess of Rosse talks about her life in Ireland at the family seat at Birr Castle.The current Earl also makes an appearance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...hink-1.4315953
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  #1327  
Old 08-16-2020, 06:22 AM
eya eya is offline
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The Earl and Countess of Mornington have separated.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ornington.html
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  #1328  
Old 08-17-2020, 09:02 PM
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Apparently, there is an(other) American who could expect to become a British peer within the next few decades, his name is Bill Capell (full name: William Jennings Capell (see his wikipedia-page)). He is a 4th cousin once removed from the current earl of Essex and as such his heir presumptive - his son Kevin is his heir apparent. He is a retired grocery clerk from California (Yuba City) - maybe he could meet up with the newest peer living in California to learn some of the robes :)
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  #1329  
Old 08-17-2020, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Apparently, there is an(other) American who could expect to become a British peer within the next few decades, his name is Bill Capell (full name: William Jennings Capell (see his wikipedia-page)). He is a 4th cousin once removed from the current earl of Essex and as such his heir presumptive - his son Kevin is his heir apparent. He is a retired grocery clerk from California (Yuba City) - maybe he could meet up with the newest peer living in California to learn some of the robes :)

It looks like the family lost their estate in the early 1920s and never recovered. Always sad to see a landless peer, especially when he might be a grocery clerk in California.
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  #1330  
Old 08-18-2020, 02:54 AM
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yes the estate's possessions were sold off and the house demolished in 1927.

Well the future earl is in good company. He and Harry are not alone with titles making their home in North America.

The current Earl of Orkney lives in Manitoba. He is a retired professor. Like the future Earl of Essex, he inherited the title from a distant cousin (3rd). He is also an heir to the Viscount Bollingbroke though more distant. He did live in England and lecture there once upon a time but he is Canadian born and raised. As is his son and heir Oliver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_...Earl_of_Orkney

The Marques of Ely lives three hours south of me in Calgary. He too worked in the school system till retirement. Like Essex, the physical estate does not belong to the family any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T...arquess_of_Ely


Manitoba seems popular. Viscount Galway lives there as well (again family estate sold). He is a Canadian Olympic rower.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Monckton
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  #1331  
Old 08-18-2020, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
The Earl and Countess of Mornington have separated.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ornington.html
And the confirmation here:

Royal Musings: A separation for a future Duke
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  #1332  
Old 08-18-2020, 04:13 PM
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It looks like the family lost their estate in the early 1920s and never recovered. Always sad to see a landless peer, especially when he might be a grocery clerk in California.

Fortunes come & go I guess. The story of who’s up & who’s down makes for interesting social history. For every family like the Spencers of Althorp who made their fortune from sheep farming there was an ancient dynasty on the way to obscurity. Hardy's great novel Tess of the d'Urbevilles touches on this.

You might be interested in this link to John Batemans’ well known 1883 registry of land ownership.

https://archive.org/details/greatlandownerso00bateuoft

At this time over 80% of the land was owned by just 7000 members of the nobility & gentry. Indeed a quarter was held by just 1600 of them. In Scotland the figures were even more stark & in Ireland many of the landowners were absentees.

Land ownership & management was a very contentious issue in C19th & early C20th Britain & Ireland – indeed it remains so particulary in Scotland. Rural unrest existed throughout C19th England – the Tolpuddle Martyrs were transported to Australia for instance. There was the Land War in Ireland. There were the Highland clearances in Scotland.

What’s interesting about this book is that it was published just on the cusp of huge changes in land ownership. Many aristocratic estates began to be broken up because of the late C19th agricultural depression, a revolution in land ownership accelerated by death duties & the cataclysm of WW1.

There were some dramatic sales – in 1911 the Duke of Bedford sold off the whole of his Devon estate (22’000 acres) in just two weeks. His ancestor had received them as a gift from Henry VIII. So these lands had in effect been stolen from the church at the dissolution of Tavistock Abbey. So what goes around & all that…..

A good result of all this was that ownership became more democratic with many former tenants now being able to own the land they farmed.
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  #1333  
Old 08-19-2020, 01:39 AM
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Another sad story, where a property and historical estate is put on sale due to maintenance cost.

William Sitwell, a restaurant critic for The Daily Telegraph and food critic on MasterChef, who is also the heir presumptive to the Sitwell Baronetcy. The current holder is his brother Sir George Reresby Sacheverell Sitwell, 8th Baronet. He has recently revealed on The Telegraph (on 8th August) that he is selling his ancestral home, Weston Hall.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/interior...box=1596878791

From Wikipedia: Weston Hall is a 17th-century manor house in Weston, Northamptonshire. The house has been owned by the Sitwell family's ancestors since 1714.[1] It is a Grade II* listed building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_Hall

Weston Hall is not the family seat of Sitwell Baronetcy, Renishaw Hall, but it has strong connection to the family. Weston Hall is (at the time of this posting) operating as a wedding function and hotel.

Link to Renishaw's Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renishaw_Hall

Link to Sitwell baronets' Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitwell_baronets
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  #1334  
Old 08-20-2020, 03:11 PM
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The death was announced this evening of the The Hon. Desmond Walter Guinness who was the second of son of the late Bryan Guinness, 2nd Baron Moyne and Diana Mitford .Desmond Guinness was 88 years old and a noted Anglo-Irish author on Georgian art and architecture and the conservationist and co founder Irish Georgian Society.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...dies-1.4335213
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  #1335  
Old 08-23-2020, 10:22 AM
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It’s so interesting to read up more of hereditary peers and potential heir apparents/presumptives who are not from the traditional “old money” class or the land-based rich - ones like the Snowdons (who do have the most interesting history of their rise to power). I read there’s another peer, the 6th Baron Sinha, who is in I.T., and now there’s a distant relative from America who could be the future Earl of Essex. Though mostly the modern peers were ex-politicians or descended from political families (such as the Benns, the Viscount Stansgate. Tony Benn was a solid leftie but his sons are soft left leaning). I watched from one documentary made during the debates on the House of Lords Reform Act 1999 on which hereditary peers have their thoughts on them being kicked out of Parliament. One peer works as a dentist though he takes time to attend sessions because his clinic is near Westminstsd. I forgot the name of thaf peer though.
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  #1336  
Old 08-23-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pairs of the Realm View Post
It’s so interesting to read up more of hereditary peers and potential heir apparents/presumptives who are not from the traditional “old money” class or the land-based rich - ones like the Snowdons (who do have the most interesting history of their rise to power). I read there’s another peer, the 6th Baron Sinha, who is in I.T., and now there’s a distant relative from America who could be the future Earl of Essex. Though mostly the modern peers were ex-politicians or descended from political families (such as the Benns, the Viscount Stansgate. Tony Benn was a solid leftie but his sons are soft left leaning). I watched from one documentary made during the debates on the House of Lords Reform Act 1999 on which hereditary peers have their thoughts on them being kicked out of Parliament. One peer works as a dentist though he takes time to attend sessions because his clinic is near Westminstsd. I forgot the name of thaf peer though.



Most of the older peerages were associated with a landed estate. Peers in that class who now have other professions are those whose families lost their estates (and never recovered from it), mostly in the 20th century.


But, as you said, there was a time (up to the mid-20th century actually) when high-ranking politicians and even generals/senior military were honored with hereditary peerages (many former PMs for example became earls), and those are peerages that were not necessarily associated with land.


Overall, I think, however, that the British peerage was more successful at remaining a class of land or real-estate owners than in other countries in Europe. Compare it for example to Spain, the only other extant "big" kingdom in Europe with a peerage-like system of hereditary nobility, but where, despite there being still over 2,000 hereditary title holders (vs 700 or so in the UK), very few actually still have large estates.


The theory I mentioned once to our fellow member Durham from the UK is that the relative success of the British peers has to do with entails or, even after entails were legally broken, the British law of succession that keeps the entire estate in the same family over the generations. Continental countries, on the other hand, are subject, I suppose, to the provisions in the civil code that guarantee that a share of the estate should go to the younger children. But I am not sure if that was the main factor.
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  #1337  
Old 08-23-2020, 04:26 PM
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The theory I mentioned once to our fellow member Durham from the UK is that the relative success of the British peers has to do with entails or, even after entails were legally broken, the British law of succession that keeps the entire estate in the same family over the generations. Continental countries, on the other hand, are subject, I suppose, to the provisions in the civil code that guarantee that a share of the estate should go to the younger children. But I am not sure if that was the main factor.
Entail ensured the survival of the "big house". That's why there's so many surviving in Britain. And complete with their contents, often accumulated over generations. Layers of history. That's unusual in Europe. Lack of war/invasion played some part as well.

The country house/park (along with the English medieval cathedrals) is arguably the main British contribution to European culture.

Many aristocrats also profited directly from the industrial revolution. For instance the Sitwells of Derbyshire mentioned in post 1334 owned collieries. If you look at the link I added in post 1333 you can see that their 3000 acres produced over £10'000 a year. Agricultural land at this time brought in about a pound an acre depending on the quality of the land so the Sitwells were making at least three times as much as they would have done because of the industry on their estate.
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  #1338  
Old 08-23-2020, 05:10 PM
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Many aristocratic homes may still exist, but many of them are no longer in the hands of the original owners. Many of the families found the cost of upkeep of the homes too much. Especially those who had more then one home, often selling off a few of them.

The smarter ones found ways of turning a profit from their property. And not simply through farming and industry if they had the land to do so.

Some families have opened parts of their home up to the public to view. Others have allowed them to be used for filming like Highclere (Downton) and Alnwick (Harry Potter among others). Or a polo park on the grounds in the case of Cowdray park. The money from this allows them to maintain the expensive homes and grounds.

The Duchess of Northumberland is well known for doing this. She was behind the major renovations of Alnwick's gardens in 2000. The home had already been used for filming for years but this was another step. The house's gardens are one of the biggest attractions in the North.

Powderham castle, home to the Earl and Countess of Devonshire has been used for concerts and television and more. Unfortunately the old Earl had to auction off over 100 antique pieces to pay his debts, even with their businesses. His son, the current Earl and his wife AJ Langer (US actress), turned it around and have got the businesses back up and running including weddings.
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  #1339  
Old 08-23-2020, 05:34 PM
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There are a surprising amount of houses that still belong to the families who built them but yes you’re right many have been sold. The National Trust own quite a few of course with many of the (very lucky) families in situ.

Many as you say have found new uses. Alnwick has really played up its Potter links, it’s very commercial now. On the other hand of course Alnwick is such a vast building so they need the money. A large chunk of it is occupied by an American university. The new garden is certainly very big & cost an awful lot of money. Not been to Highclere as yet.

Badminton, Blenheim & Burghley have their horse trials like Cowdray its polo.

The pioneers of the “stately home industry” Bedford & Bath were certainly forward thinking if unconventional for their day. Unlike their ancestors they couldn't just be rentiers, they had to be entrepreneurs to survive.

The Courtenays of Powderham were unlucky with the amount of death duties they had to pay in the last century I think so a lot of land was sold. The castle is in a lovely spot overlooking the Exe in an area of England that gets a lot of domestic tourists so does quite well for visitor numbers.
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  #1340  
Old 08-29-2020, 08:05 PM
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George Spencer-Churchill, Marquess of Blandford (son of James Spencer-Churchill, 12th Duke of Marlborough), Marchioness of Blandford, Lady Violet Manners (daughter of David Manners, 11th Duke of Rutland) and their other close friends were on holiday together.

The images were posted four days ago, as of today (30th August), on George's instagram account.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEU0dNAgJxG/
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