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  #1301  
Old 05-22-2020, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I guess “the season” disappeared with the removal of the debutantes being presented to court in 1958.

About the London Season The London Season
To quote Princess Margaret:

"we had to put a stop to it, every tart in London was getting in".
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  #1302  
Old 05-22-2020, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
To quote Princess Margaret:

"we had to put a stop to it, every tart in London was getting in".
I read that the problem was that originally young girls were presented by a lady of rank who was a family member, or at least a close connection.

But then, these presenters began accepting money to present girls with whom they had absolutely no connection; it became crass and commercialized so the Queen did away with it in favor of garden parties.
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  #1303  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:59 AM
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Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey (b.3 September 1987) [oldest of five children and heir of Edward William Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfork (b.1956) & his wife Georgina Susan, nee Gore, scion of the Earls Temple of Stowe (b.1962)] & his wife Cecilia, nee Colacicchi (b.18 April 1988) [oldest daughter of William of the Counts Colacicchi, Nobile of Agnani (b.1954) & his wife Clare, nee Clutterbuck (b.1958)] had their second daughter, Eliza Rachel, on 12 May.

A sister for Flora Mary Isabella (10-11-2018).

Sources: https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/202...untess-of.html
Norfolk
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  #1304  
Old 05-23-2020, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I read that the problem was that originally young girls were presented by a lady of rank who was a family member, or at least a close connection.

But then, these presenters began accepting money to present girls with whom they had absolutely no connection; it became crass and commercialized so the Queen did away with it in favor of garden parties.
I think its a bit of an odd remark for Margaret to make. Why was she stigmatizing these girls as "tarts"?
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  #1305  
Old 05-23-2020, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think its a bit of an odd remark for Margaret to make. Why was she stigmatizing these girls as "tarts"?
Perhaps because they were no longer from within her usual social circle?
Margaret could be snobbish.
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  #1306  
Old 05-23-2020, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
Perhaps because they were no longer from within her usual social circle?
Margaret could be snobbish.
Yes I think we all know Margaret was snobbish.. but it was a damn stupid remark to make. Im sure most of the girls who were being presented were not in any sense of the word "tarts" and it sounds appalling..
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  #1307  
Old 05-23-2020, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Biri View Post
Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey (b.3 September 1987) [oldest of five children and heir of Edward William Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfork (b.1956) & his wife Georgina Susan, nee Gore, scion of the Earls Temple of Stowe (b.1962)] & his wife Cecilia, nee Colacicchi (b.18 April 1988) [oldest daughter of William of the Counts Colacicchi, Nobile of Agnani (b.1954) & his wife Clare, nee Clutterbuck (b.1958)] had their second daughter, Eliza Rachel, on 12 May.

A sister for Flora Mary Isabella (10-11-2018).

Sources: https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/202...untess-of.html
Norfolk
That's wonderful news; although in a family like theirs, they might have (silently) hoped for a boy so they would have a heir to the heir. Eder sister Lady Flora, however, will become a peer as Baroness Beaumont if no brother is born (this title entered the family through the current duke's grandmother as it can be inherited by women; so Flora is currently the 'heir presumptive of the heir apparent' to this peerage while her uncle is the 'heir presumptive of the heir apparent' for all other titles).

Current line of succession to the Dukedom of Norfolk (the highest hereditary position in the UK outside the Royal Family):
1. Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel (3 December 1987) - eldest son of the duke
2. Lord Thomas Fitzalan-Howard (14 March 1992) - second son of the duke
3. Lord Philip Fitzalan-Howard (14 July 1996) - third son of the duke
4. Lord Gerald Bernard Fitzalan-Howard (born 13 June 1962) - brother of the duke
5. Arthur Fitzalan-Howard - nephew of the duke
Next: Male-line descendants of Lord Michael Fitzalan-Howard (1917-2007) - uncle of the current duke; who had 4 sons
Next: Male-line descendants of Lord Martin Fitzalan-Howard (1922–2003) - uncle of the current duke (if any)
Next: Lord Mark Fitzalan-Howard (born 1934) - uncle of the current duke (youngest brother of his father; no male-line descendants)

Current line of succession to the Barony of Beaumont (some might have off-spring that is not included):
1. Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel (3 December 1987) - eldest son of the duke
2. Lady Flora Fitzalan-Howard (b. 2018) - eldest daughter of (1)/granddaughter of duke
3. Lady Eliza Fitzalan-Howard (b. 2020) - youngest daughter of (1)/granddaughter of duke
4. Lord Thomas Fitzalan-Howard (14 March 1992) - middle son of the duke
5. Lord Philip Fitzalan-Howard (14 July 1996) - youngest son of the duke
6. Lady Rachel Fitzalan-Howard (10 June 1989) - eldest daughter of the duke
7. Lady Isabel Fitzalan-Howard (7 February 1994) - youngest daughter of the duke
8. Lord Gerald Bernard Fitzalan-Howard (born 13 June 1962) - brother of the duke
9. Arthur Fitzalan-Howard - nephew of the duke
10. Florence Fitzalan-Howard - niece of the duke
11. Grace Fitzalan-Howard - niece of the duke
12. Tessa Mary Isabel Balfour, Countess of Balfour (b. 1950) - eldest sister of duke
13. Lady Willa Anne Balfour (born 1973) - eldest daughter of (12)/niece of duke
14. Arthur Anthony Franks (born 1999) - great-nephew of duke
15. Violet Miriam Franks (born 2000) - great-niece of duke
16. Esmé Alice Franks (born 2004) - great-niece of duke
17. Lady Kinvara Clare Rachel Balfour (born 1975), known as an English playwright - second daughter of (12)/niece of duke
18. Lady Maria Alice Jubilee Balfour (born 1977) - third daughter of (12)/niece of duke
19. Caius Christian Wigan (born 2013) - great-nephew of duke
20. Aliena Mirabelle Wigan (born 2009) - great-niece of duke
21. Lady Candida Rose Balfour (born 1984) - youngest daughter of (12)/niece of duke
22. Lady Carina Mary Gabrielle Fitzalan-Howard (born 20 February 1952) - second elder sister of duke
23. Wilfred Frost (b. 1985), known as financial news anchor for CNBC - nephew of duke/second son of (22)
24. George Frost - nephew of duke/third son of (22)
25. Lady Marcia Mary Josephine Fitzalan-Howard (born 10 March 1953), better known as actress Marsha Fitzalan - third elder sister of duke
26. Frederick William Hamlet Reycart (born 1987) - nephew of duke
27. Mariella Celia Reycart (born 1982) - niece of duke
28. Jemima Carrie Reycart (born 1984) - niece of duke

Next: descendants of the late duke's siblings.
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  #1308  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Yes I think we all know Margaret was snobbish.. but it was a damn stupid remark to make. Im sure most of the girls who were being presented were not in any sense of the word "tarts" and it sounds appalling..
Well it's certainly not the first or last time a woman or group of women had that type of derogatory remark (or much worse) thrown at them, even if it's entirely inaccurate and just meant to be nasty or "funny".

I would imagine she was annoyed at the buying of presentations and how many nouveau riche and otherwise non aristocratic or unsuitable girls got through.

The "season" still goes on after a fashion and it's claimed to be for charity etc. When I was at school I was invited to join (all upper 6th were via an old girl or something) you had to agree to host your own ball and a list of other requirements. I was tempted to ask my parents (I think they'd have said a big no) because it sounded glamourous but also incredibly silly and a lot of effort to go do when doing A levels and everything else.
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  #1309  
Old 05-23-2020, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Well it's certainly not the first or last time a woman or group of women had that type of derogatory remark (or much worse) thrown at them, even if it's entirely inaccurate and just meant to be nasty or "funny".

I would imagine she was annoyed at the buying of presentations and how many nouveau riche and otherwise non aristocratic or unsuitable girls got through.

.
I can't think of anything much worse, than calling young women "tarts". If she'd said even "every jumped up nouveau riche in London" was getting in, it would still have been rude.
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  #1310  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:16 PM
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And that's probably why Margaret referred to them as such - I think several people have said that she could have a rather difficult personality!
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  #1311  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:29 PM
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Well she could be very cutting I understand. Without knowing the tone & context I don't know why she used that particular word.

Presentations were becoming anachronistic & increasingly absurd in the context of the late 50's. Society was changing rapidly. Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain covers this period well.
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  #1312  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I can't think of anything much worse, than calling young women "tarts". If she'd said even "every jumped up nouveau riche in London" was getting in, it would still have been rude.
Well I was just thinking in more modern terms of people (including some women sometimes) slinging around the "bunch of sluts/whores/frigid bitches" if they don't like a particular group of women or the organisations they belong to. It doesn't have to make sense or be in the slightest bit factual. I got it directed it me for being in a certain choir at uni and my all girls school was known simultaneously as "The Whores on the Hill" and "Virgin Megastore" by local boys schools, neither extreme was true.

I've heard the quote before but not the context of the whole conversation but it's likely that she as being deliberately very rude, snobbish and dismissive.
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  #1313  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:59 PM
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I've never thought of the word tart as being as offensive as those terms. It can mean preening or acting provocatively.

As we agree without the full context it's difficult to know what she meant by it.
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  #1314  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Well she could be very cutting I understand. Without knowing the tone & context I don't know why she used that particular word.

Presentations were becoming anachronistic & increasingly absurd in the context of the late 50's. Society was changing rapidly. Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain covers this period well.
Well you only have to look at the Annual Vienna Opera Ball to see that money counts with its dozens of pallid debutantes wearing yhe obligatory identical Swarovski crystal tiaras, white gowns, at least 75% of which are strapless, ill-fitting and tasteless, accompanied by an equal number of young men in rented white tie. At least the music is the very best that money can buy.
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  #1315  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:14 PM
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That's wonderful news; although in a family like theirs, they might have (silently) hoped for a boy so they would have a heir to the heir.
I don't think it's a silent hope at all. Even if I'm sure they're beyond happy for every healthy daughter they have they need a son to keep the title and the vast Norfolk fortune in the family. Even if there is long line of succession to the dukedom it's preferable to keep it all as close to home as possible.
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  #1316  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Well I was just thinking in more modern terms of people (including some women sometimes) slinging around the "bunch of sluts/whores/frigid bitches" if they don't like a particular group of women or the organisations they belong to. It doesn't have to make sense or be in the slightest bit factual. I got it directed it me for being in a certain choir at uni and my all girls school was known simultaneously as "The Whores on the Hill" and "Virgin Megastore" by local boys schools, neither extreme was true.

I've heard the quote before but not the context of the whole conversation but it's likely that she as being deliberately very rude, snobbish and dismissive.
I doubt if a woman of PM's generation would use such terms, as sluts.. But tarts is bad enough...
I don't believe anyone knows te full conversation but the remark itself showed Pm's nature...
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  #1317  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:23 PM
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Prince Phillip called the presentation of debutantes "bloody daft". His had become a widespread opinion by that time.
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  #1318  
Old 05-23-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I don't think it's a silent hope at all. Even if I'm sure they're beyond happy for every healthy daughter they have they need a son to keep the title and the vast Norfolk fortune in the family. Even if there is long line of succession to the dukedom it's preferable to keep it all as close to home as possible.
It's interesting that you mention the Norfolk fortune because the Duke of Norfolk doesn't as far as I know appear in the Sunday Times annual rich list. There again you do have to have a fortune of £120 million to even enter at the very bottom of this very exclusive list so he might "only" be worth a £100 million or so.

The entail on the Norfolk estate was broken by the Arundel Estates Act of 1957. There is/was land by the Thames on the Strand where Arundel House once stood. That would be very valuable today.

The great wealth that the Dukes of Norfolk had in the C19th & early C20th was based in the main because of their holdings in Sheffield. That's what financed the great rebuilding of Arundel Castle.

Many aristocratic families profited very nicely off the labour of the working man & woman during the industrial era.
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  #1319  
Old 05-23-2020, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I don't think it's a silent hope at all. Even if I'm sure they're beyond happy for every healthy daughter they have they need a son to keep the title and the vast Norfolk fortune in the family. Even if there is long line of succession to the dukedom it's preferable to keep it all as close to home as possible.
As the current duke has three sons, I'd say there is a pretty good chance that it will stay within his descendants - but for the current heir apparent (young father) it will make a difference if the title (including the role of Earl Marshall) ends up going to his child or his brother/(future) nephew.
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  #1320  
Old 05-24-2020, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
To quote Princess Margaret:

"we had to put a stop to it, every tart in London was getting in".
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