The British Nobility thread 1: Ending 2022


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
It's not like the British aristocracy have ever had a reputation for long, happy, faithful marriages to each other. It's just easier to get a divorce these days.

More than one commentator has snarked that if they didn't have money and titles then they'd all be on the Jerry Springer Show.

Oh well, good luck to them both. He does seem to be keen on sustainable tourism in Scotland and it's a good idea to start a company to retrain injured soldiers. I can't find anything on his bride-to-be.
 
Lets not write them off yet. A lot of people who marry young and have a short lived first marriage, go on for a long successful one.

He was with the mother of his daughter for six years. It seems they split up around the time his father died.

His brother and current heir Ted is good friends with Pippa. They were college flat mates, along with George Percy.


His company

https://www.capstar.co/about-us/

I have such respect that the company employes veterans, especially ones who have been wounded in battle. So many veterans struggle to re-adjust to civilian life and find work as well, even those who were not wounded. Great not only to see them employed but also in management. Charles himself served in Iraq.

He also promotes sustainable tourism in Scotland. Ted does as well,he works with Ossian which offers experiences in Scotland to explore castles and land.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/duke-roxburghe-backs-sustainable-tourism-borders-2984156
 
Samuel Vestey, 3rd Baron Vestey, a Racecourse Chairman at Cheltenham, businessman, courtier and landowner has passed away, aged 79. Baron Vestey and his wife, Lady Vestey are friends of The Queen and The Prince of Wales, who shared their passion for horses. Lady Vestey, who passed away in December 2020, was Prince Harry's godmother.

Cheltenham pioneer who achieved a long-held festival ambition with 1997 winner
Trained by his sister-in-law, the homebred started at 20-1 for the Stayers' Hurdle and rallied to beat Anzum by two and a half lengths
https://www.racingpost.com/news/che...festival-ambition-with-1997-winner/471585/amp

Beef baron Lord Vestey dead aged 79: One of Britain's richest men and the Queen's racing friend 'Lord Spam' dies weeks after his wife who was godmother to Prince Harry
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...-Britains-richest-men-Samuel-Vestey-died.html

May Baron Vestey Rest in Peace. Condolences to his family and friends.
 
It was reported by Tom Newton Dunn of The Times that the Government is at last seriously studying the option of abolishing male primogeniture in favor of equal primogeniture for hereditary peerages and baronetcies.



Boris Johnson has directed a team of female aides to draw up ways to make parliament more welcoming to women. The plans are intended to form part of a bill of reforms.

[...]

A senior No 10 source said that male primogeniture was “a nonsense”. Scrapping it was “being looked at”, along with “three or four other things”.

[...]

The proposal has rising support among peers, such as Viscount Torrington, co-chairman of the Hereditary Peerage Association. Lord Torrington told Times Radio: “A survey of our members found the majority in favour. Those who were not didn’t want their surname to go but that is solvable”.​


I'm surprised that those who "didn't want their surname to go" are unaware that common law has no prohibition against children receiving the surname of their mother.


From the head of the campaign against male-only inheritance:


After seven miscarriages and two rounds of IVF Charlotte Carew Pole was “absolutely thrilled” when she gave birth to her daughter, Jemima. Yet the penny soon dropped that, for some, Jemima was not good enough.

[...]

“There was a general expectation that I must keep pumping them out until a boy arrived. And all because I married a man who will inherit a title.”

[...]

“Synergy Bank did some research last year. They found men were 50 per cent more likely to inherit a small family business than a woman.

[...]

Her progress with the campaign was slow to begin with. Carew Pole started by writing to every hereditary peer and baronet with only daughters — or no children at all — some 1,500 out of the national total of 2,500 men with hereditary titles.

She received only 12 responses. “A few were kind enough to ring me up to tell me I was bonkers,” she recalls.

“One baronet told me he’d rather his title died out than go to his daughter.”​
 
It was reported by Tom Newton Dunn of The Times that the Government is at last seriously studying the option of abolishing male primogeniture in favor of equal primogeniture for hereditary peerages and baronetcies.



Boris Johnson has directed a team of female aides to draw up ways to make parliament more welcoming to women. The plans are intended to form part of a bill of reforms.

[...]

A senior No 10 source said that male primogeniture was “a nonsense”. Scrapping it was “being looked at”, along with “three or four other things”.

[...]

The proposal has rising support among peers, such as Viscount Torrington, co-chairman of the Hereditary Peerage Association. Lord Torrington told Times Radio: “A survey of our members found the majority in favour. Those who were not didn’t want their surname to go but that is solvable”.​


I'm surprised that those who "didn't want their surname to go" are unaware that common law has no prohibition against children receiving the surname of their mother.


From the head of the campaign against male-only inheritance:


After seven miscarriages and two rounds of IVF Charlotte Carew Pole was “absolutely thrilled” when she gave birth to her daughter, Jemima. Yet the penny soon dropped that, for some, Jemima was not good enough.

[...]

“There was a general expectation that I must keep pumping them out until a boy arrived. And all because I married a man who will inherit a title.”

[...]

“Synergy Bank did some research last year. They found men were 50 per cent more likely to inherit a small family business than a woman.

[...]

Her progress with the campaign was slow to begin with. Carew Pole started by writing to every hereditary peer and baronet with only daughters — or no children at all — some 1,500 out of the national total of 2,500 men with hereditary titles.

She received only 12 responses. “A few were kind enough to ring me up to tell me I was bonkers,” she recalls.

“One baronet told me he’d rather his title died out than go to his daughter.”​


If male primogeniture is scrapped ( and that is a big if), I suspect it will apply only to future hereditary peerages ( which are now pratically inexistent outside the RF) or, for existing peerages, it will be conditioned on the current holder of the peerage and the heir presumptive under the terms of the original LPs agreeing to a change in the order of succession. There is no way the British Parliament will do what the Spanish Cortes did in 2006 and impose equal primogeniture in all future successions regardless of the terms of the original LPs under which the title was granted.
 
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The British Nobility thread

:previous:

I think the year of absolute primogeniture applied to inheritance of hereditary peer (I.e. those royal family members born after 2011 would only be affected) would be crucial, yet very complex, given that there are many families with different peerage titles.

If absolute primogeniture is applied retrospectively and to current children of the Nobility, it would be dramatic change. For example, Lady Violet Manners (I think she is in her 20s) would be the heir to David Manners, 11th Duke of Rutland rather than Charles Manners. By also applying heirs using Subsidiary titles, she would be Violet Manners, Marchioness of Granby. It all well saying Lady Violet would be prepared to inherit the Dukedom, but then to take that away from her younger brother (who probably was preparing since childhood) could lead to family conflict. The same could be said for Earl Spencer and Lady Kitty Spencer.

I don’t see the Prime Minister going down the route enforcing (by passing a bill) absolute primogeniture to existing or even previous children of nobles/aristocrat. To me, it sounds more what Labour or Lib Dem would do. Yes, he may be label as a socially liberal, but he also has politician traditional right-wing fraction of the Conservative Party in both Commons and Lords.

In terms of increasing female representation in the House of Lords, surely it’s better to influence the life peers’ appointment rather than the hereditary peers, given that there are currently more life peer than hereditary.
 
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:previous:

I think the year of absolute primogeniture applied to inheritance of hereditary peer (I.e. those royal family members born after 2011 would only be affected) would be crucial, yet very complex, given that there are many families with different peerage titles.

If absolute primogeniture is applied retrospectively and to current children of the Nobility, it would be dramatic change. For example, Lady Violet Manners (I think she is in her 20s) would be the heir to David Manners, 11th Duke of Rutland rather than Charles Manners. By also applying heirs using Subsidiary titles, she would be Violet Manners, Marchioness of Granby. It all well saying Lady Violet would be prepared to inherit the Dukedom, but then to take that away from her younger brother (who probably was preparing since childhood) could lead to family conflict. The same could be said for Earl Spencer and Lady Kitty Spencer.

I don’t see the Prime Minister going down the route enforcing (by passing a bill) absolute primogeniture to existing or even previous children of nobles/aristocrat. To me, it sounds more what Labour or Lib Dem would do. Yes, he may be label as a socially liberal, but he also has politician traditional right-wing fraction of the Conservative Party in both Commons and Lords.

Most likely the bill will propose male preference primogeniture rather than outright equal primoeniture, so that only peers with daughters, but no sons will be affected. Even in that scenario though, I expect that consent from the peerage holder and possibly the heir presumptive will be required for existing peerages.

It is an interesting development anyway. It has been tried in the past and failed , but I suppose the political conditions now exist for at least some change to be effected.
 
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In terms of increasing female representation in the House of Lords, surely it’s better to influence the life peers’ appointment rather than the hereditary peers, given that there are currently more life peer than hereditary.

I think it is best to influence both. Entrenching the position that male peers are preferable (for hereditaries) will not help to persuade people that female representation among (life) peers needs urgent work.

Increasing appointments of women peers is surely one of the "three or four other" proposals being studied.


I don’t see the Prime Minister going down the route enforcing (by passing a bill) absolute primogeniture to existing or even previous children of nobles/aristocrat. To me, it sounds more what Labour or Lib Dem would do. Yes, he may be label as a socially liberal, but he also has politician traditional right-wing fraction of the Conservative Party in both Commons and Lords.

I am not sure about the parliamentary parties, but with the public there appears to be no sizable partisan divide on this issue. In a nationally representative poll carried out in 2018, 69% of Conservatives were in favor of equal primogeniture for hereditary titles, compared to 76% of Labour.


Most likely the bill will propose male preference primogeniture rather than outright equal primoeniture, so that only peers with daughters, but no sons will be affected.

The article says: "Under the proposal to abolish male primogeniture, first-born daughters would take on their father’s hereditary peerage or baronetcy instead of younger sons." Of course, the proposal might be whittled down if (and as you said, it is a big if) a bill is actually drafted.
 
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I think if they pulled what Sweden did it would be a nightmare. Just like with the law that now allows Charlotte to remain in her spot, any new laws should only apply from current date forward.


LaRae
 
I think if they pulled what Sweden did it would be a nightmare. Just like with the law that now allows Charlotte to remain in her spot, any new laws should only apply from current date forward.


LaRae


As I see it, there are two main issues involved in the opposition to equal primogeniture in the peerage.



First, the desire to keep the link between the title and a particular paternal family name, which could in theory be solved as Viscount Torrington said if the children simply took their mother's family name instead. Unfortunately, it is not that simple as I suppose the father of the children would have something to say on that matter too and, in any case, despite not being forbidden in English common law as the Viscount argued, it is not the British custom in practice.



Second, there is the question of the link between the family estate and the title. I am not versed in English property law, but, as far as I understand it and Tatiana Maria or Durham may be able to confirm, entails have been abolished in England. In fact, I believe that even the creation of new trusts to simulate entails in practice by having the title holder as "tenant for life" is now unlawful (I don't know about preexisting trusts). If so, there is no legal impediment to a hypothetical Lady Mary Crawley inheriting her father's estate rather than surrendering it to her fifth cousin upon her father's demise. In that scenario, daughters are still disadvantaged to the extent that holding a peerage still carries certain rights and privileges in the UK (more so than on other countries), but the link between the estate and the title has already been broken in practice anyway.


I would appreciate comments from more knowledgeable posters.
 
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If a woman inherits the title and has children couldn't they just hyphenate, fathers name first?
 
If a woman inherits the title and has children couldn't they just hyphenate, fathers name first?

There has been hyphenation in the past, but the surnames could be very long if the parents already has hyphenated surname (double, triple or even quadruple barrelled). For example, the Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax family are descendants of Admiral The Honourable Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax (younger son of John William Plunkett, 17th Baron of Dunsany and Ernle Elizabeth Louisa Maria Grosvenor).

There has been cases where children kept both parents' surname without the hypen, but be referred with the father's surname. For example, Helena de Chair's (daughter of Somerset de Chair and Lady Juliet Tadgell (née Wentworth-Fitzwilliam)) full name is Helena Anne Beatrix Wentworth Fitzwilliam de Chair, before she married The Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg (son of Baron Rees-Mogg). Interestingly, her "Wentworth Fitzwilliam" surname was not hyphenated like her mother or those in the direct line, perhaps it's used to distinguish that it's her mother with the Wentworth-Fitzwilliam surname rather than father. Helena has a private instagram account with "Helena Rees-Mogg". In the birth announcement of her son, Anselm, she was referred Helena Anne Beatrix Wentworth Fitzwilliam Rees-Mogg, where she dropped her father's surname for her husband whilst keeping her mothers. All six of Helena children carried her husband's surname, with two of her sons carried "Wentworth" and "Fitzwilliam" as their middle names. Lady Juliet was the only child of the Peter Wentworth-Fitzwilliam, 8th Earl Fitzwilliam. Since the 9th and 10th Earl do have children from their marriages, the Earldom Fitzwilliam became extinct in 1979 after the 10th Earl death.

Helena in the peerage website: Person Page

Lady Juliet in the peerage website: Person Page

Birth announcement of Anselm in the peerage news blog: https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/2012/07/anslem-charles-fitzwilliam-rees-mogg.html
 
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Its the 21st century, just like the monarchy, if things want to survive they need to modernize a bit.

The time for male only should have been long over. In Scottish titles (ones that are older then the union of the thrones) there are those who already practice male-preference. Lady Saltoun is the most clear example of that.

It needs to be done retroactively so those lords who have no sons, and who are beyond having more children (their daughters are adults) can leave their titles to their grown children.

Male preference for any children born before 2020 say, and equal rights after 2020 would be the prime idea. It would mean no son who is already heir would be stripped of his title. But if a Duke or such only has daughters (born before 2020) they will still be able to inherit their father's throne. Kind of like how the succession was handled in countries like Norway. Where Haakon was still ahead of Martha Louise, but Ingrid is ahead of her brother.

They could even do earlier then 2020. Just choose a point so that no 'adult heir' is stripped of their position.
 
I would also like to ask if the absolute primogeniture would apply to royal peerages? The most prominent example would be the Dukedom of York and whether or not Princess Beatrice would inherit it in the future. I chose the Duke of York, because he has no sons to pass down his title under male primogeniture. And for the royal peers who have sons and daughters, would the daughters be added to the peerage line of succession (i.e. Would Lady Louise be ahead of her younger brother, James in inheriting Earldom of Wessex or Dukedom of Edinburgh if the title is created for Prince Edward?) Of course these circumstances will depends on what year (of the child's birth) the Bill decided to apply to.

I understand that the next holder of Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent would not have HRH Prince title (becoming non-royal peer).
 
Second, there is the question of the link between the family estate and the title. I am not versed in English property law, but, as far as I understand it and Tatiana Maria or Durham may be able to confirm, entails have been abolished in England. In fact, I believe that even the creation of new trusts to simulate entails in practice by having the title holder as "tenant for life" is now unlawful (I don't know about preexisting trusts). If so, there is no legal impediment to a hypothetical Lady Mary Crawley inheriting her father's estate rather than surrendering it to her fifth cousin upon her father's demise. In that scenario, daughters are still disadvantaged to the extent that holding a peerage still carries certain rights and privileges in the UK (more so than on other countries), but the link between the estate and the title has already been broken in practice anyway.

I'm afraid I am not versed in English property law either, but the linked court judgment, which was handed down in 2009, explains that entails still exist in law, but it is a simple matter for the tenant in possession to terminate it. (Nevertheless, it is obviously in the interest of noble families to maintain the link between the peerage and the estate.)

P, Re [2009] EWCOP 163 (09 February 2009)

(By the way, it was me who argued that it is not forbidden in law for children to take their mother's name, though in my judgment that is what the Viscount meant by "solvable". I don't think there is any case that would provide a reasonable basis for arguing that it is illegal.)


It needs to be done retroactively so those lords who have no sons, and who are beyond having more children (their daughters are adults) can leave their titles to their grown children.

I understand you to mean that it needs to be done for preexisting daughters of present peers, without applying it retroactively to past successions. Fully retroactive equal primogeniture would transfer the peerage to the eldest child of the eldest child of the eldest child, etc., etc., etc., of the original grantee, who is likely to be a very distant relative.

Male preference for any children born before 2020 say, and equal rights after 2020 would be the prime idea. It would mean no son who is already heir would be stripped of his title. But if a Duke or such only has daughters (born before 2020) they will still be able to inherit their father's throne. Kind of like how the succession was handled in countries like Norway. Where Haakon was still ahead of Martha Louise, but Ingrid is ahead of her brother.

They could even do earlier then 2020. Just choose a point so that no 'adult heir' is stripped of their position.

It could certainly be arranged without too much difficulty, but it would be slightly more complex than "sons preferred over daughters for children born before 2020" since the adult heir is not always the son of the peer. For instance, a peer in his 80s who has only daughters may have a nephew in his 60s who has been in preparation for all of his adult life to take over the peerage and its estates, ever since it became obvious that his uncle and aunt would not produce a son.
 
Second, there is the question of the link between the family estate and the title. I am not versed in English property law, but, as far as I understand it and Tatiana Maria or Durham may be able to confirm, entails have been abolished in England.

You might find this of interest from a 1957 House of Lords debate:

"The "tenant in tail", that is, the person who succeeds to entailed property, can, in fact, sell or dispose of that property as if he were the absolute owner, and he can deal with the proceeds as if he were the absolute owner. That is so under an Act passed as long ago as 1833,"

So it's been possible to break entails for nearly two centuries. This debate was about the entail on the Norfolk estates in Sussex but they were unsual in that they had been entailed by an act of parliament so only another act could end it:

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1957/jul/17/arundel-estate-bill-lords-by-order
 
I read that the new Earl Mountbatten is going to sell family portraits and I think that he is wrong to do so. In fact, he reminds me of Lord Linley who also sold at least one portrait. What are these guys thinking? I think that the aristocrats need to keep portraits and at least one tiara for the brides to wear.
 
I read that the new Earl Mountbatten is going to sell family portraits and I think that he is wrong to do so. In fact, he reminds me of Lord Linley who also sold at least one portrait. What are these guys thinking? I think that the aristocrats need to keep portraits and at least one tiara for the brides to wear.
The auction that I think you're referring to will be held at Sotheby's on the 24 March and will include many items from the home of his deceased parents Countess Mountbatten and Lord Brabourne and are according to the family done in accordance to their wishes. While I agree that its sad that these collections are split up its often necessary to both pay death duties and to be able to split the inheritance evenly among the heirs (The Countess & Lord had 8 children).
 
I read that the new Earl Mountbatten is going to sell family portraits and I think that he is wrong to do so. In fact, he reminds me of Lord Linley who also sold at least one portrait. What are these guys thinking? I think that the aristocrats need to keep portraits and at least one tiara for the brides to wear.

Why? They would prefer to be solvent, and pay thier bills and taxes...
 
After watching a Youtube video by Lindsay Holiday on line of succession in European Royal Family. Surely most British Nobility followed agnatic primogeniture, where women do not succeed to the hereditary peerage and only men can inherit titles (E.g. Japan, Liechtenstein)? In agnatic primogeniture, only men are in line of succession, whereas women are in the line of succession in male primogeniture, but behind their male siblings' branch. I'm very surprised that The Times seemed to have mixed up between agnatic primogeniture and male primogeniture.

Ladies first in Tory plan to abolish male primogeniture
Daughters may take hereditary peerages under new bill
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...l?shareToken=a27476987e2e25cad7df6b3215677d06

Male primogeniture would mean that a daughter can inherit the peerage if
  • She is the eldest amongst her siblings who are all female (E.g. Queen Elizabeth II)
  • She is the only child (E.g. Queen Victoria)
  • All her (older and younger) brothers who have no children predecease her (E.g. Mary I and Elizabeth I)

Agnatic primogeniture starts at 23:09

In terms of the probability of a hereditary title becoming extinct (most likely to least likely):
Agnatic primogeniture > Male primogeniture > Absolute primogeniture
 
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Respectfully, I feel the definition of male primogeniture expressed in the video (based on your summary) is more confusing and liable to "mixup" than the definition of male primogeniture expressed in The Times. If I were to read that a peerage was inheritable by male primogeniture, I would not interpret it to mean that both males and females could inherit it.

The rule where

"a daughter can inherit the peerage if

She is the eldest amongst her siblings who are all female (E.g. Queen Elizabeth II)
She is the only child (E.g. Queen Victoria)
All her (older and younger) brothers who have no children predecease her (E.g. Mary I and Elizabeth I)"​

ordinarily seems to be known as male preference primogeniture. But son preference (a term used by the Daughters Rights group) is a more accurate label, given that even under those rules there will be cases where a female is preferred to a male, e.g., a daughter will be preferred to her uncle.
 
The family name of Viscount Hambleden is Smith. The family name of Earl Birkenhead is Smith. Are the two Smith families related?
 
The family name of Viscount Hambleden is Smith. The family name of Earl Birkenhead is Smith. Are the two Smith families related?

The first Viscount Hambledon was the founder of a very well know brand of British shops. They are pretty ubiquitous the length & breath of Britain. So the family was involved in commerce. FE Smith later Earl Birkenhead was a well known early C20th politician who held high office. So very different worlds.

I don't know whether they're related or not but I'd be surprised if there was any connection. I'm not aware of one but can't answer the question categorically.
 
The first Viscount Hambledon was the founder of a very well know brand of British shops. They are pretty ubiquitous the length & breath of Britain.

Wasn't that WHSmith?

Not sure if its still in the family or was sold off?
 
The first Viscount Hambledon was the founder of a very well know brand of British shops. They are pretty ubiquitous the length & breath of Britain. So the family was involved in commerce. FE Smith later Earl Birkenhead was a well known early C20th politician who held high office. So very different worlds.

I don't know whether they're related or not but I'd be surprised if there was any connection. I'm not aware of one but can't answer the question categorically.

The first viscount wasn’t a viscount at all. It was created for Emily Danvers Smith.

Her husband was indeed a member of the WH Smith family but the company was founded by his grandparents Henry and Anne Smith. It became WH Smith and son when he joined his father in the business.

Like the earl of Birkenhead William was a conservative politician. His wife was awarded the hereditary peerage after his death.

And no there is no sign the two families are related.
 
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