The British Nobility thread 1: Ending 2022

[Kotroman]

Exactly. Is anyone really going to be touched by a rich heiress crying because she won't get to be a countess? Hereditary peerage titles are historical relicts and should either be kept as such or abolished. Attempting to 'modernise' them is just laughable.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Yes.. I wonder how many of you would be upset if it were you with your families, say a house or condo or land, and you could not inherit something from your families simply because you are a female. I bet you would change your mind..

I am NOT talking about titles.. I am talking about land, money, etc, that is their birthright, just the same as anything in my family. It does not matter if it is a set of dishes, money, a house, land, etc. NOT titles. Simply giving everything to the male first because he is a male is archaic.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Line of hereditary succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The current titles have been created by Letters Patent which are legal documents, and can't be altered except by an Act of Parliament, and almost all titles have the standard remainder 'heirs male' .
It would be next to impossible to retroactively change the existing titles without creating chaos and crippling the courts and legal system for years.

 

[NGalitzine]

Yes.. I wonder how many of you would be upset if it were you with your families, say a house or condo or land, and you could not inherit something from your families simply because you are a female. I bet you would change your mind..

I am NOT talking about titles.. I am talking about land, money, etc, that is their birthright, just the same as anything in my family. It does not matter if it is a set of dishes, money, a house, land, etc. NOT titles. Simply giving everything to the male first because he is a male is archaic.

Not all peers have estates.
Not all peers have notable wealth.
The days of Downton Abbey are long over, estates are no longer tied to the title.
Peers can leave whatever of their private assets they wish to their children in any amounts they wish. It is only succession to the title that they have no control over.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Not all peers have estates.
Not all peers have notable wealth.
The days of Downton Abbey are long over, estates are no longer tied to the title.
Peers can leave whatever of their private assets they wish to their children in any amounts they wish. It is only succession to the title that they have no control over.

The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire lives in a cottage in the grounds of Chatsworth House and also, the Earl of Carnarvon lives in a farm house in the gardens of Highclere.

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^^
And that has what to do with anything?

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

^^^^^
And that has what to do with anything?

Ah, sorry, just a bit of information I recently found out

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Don't kid yourself, many of them still have their estates, many more than one, and many are cash and land rich too, along with their private art collections.

I just feel daughters should be able to inherit, plain and simple.

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^
But daughters can inherit private property, money, paintings etc.......it is just in most (but not all) cases they cannot inherit the peerage. I dont think they will earn a lot of sympathy from the public by claiming they are hard done by........but I can see the people telling the government "if this is so important just abolish the hereditary peerages and make the ladies happy because then they will be the equal of the sons,,,no hereditary titles for anyone".

 

[fearghas]

^^^^
But daughters can inherit private property, money, paintings etc.......it is just in most (but not all) cases they cannot inherit the peerage. I dont think they will earn a lot of sympathy from the public by claiming they are hard done by........but I can see the people telling the government "if this is so important just abolish the hereditary peerages and make the ladies happy because then they will be the equal of the sons,,,no hereditary titles for anyone".

Exactly!! and i think this focus on the titles will lead to just that

 

[AnnEliza]

If they just leave things the way they are, and let titles die out where there is no one under current law to inherit, and don't create any new hereditary titles (just the ones like knight and dame that are for the one person's lifetime), then I would think the aristocracy would eventually fade away. Without the need for litigation and lawmaking. Then I suppose it would only be the immediate family of the monarch who would be titled. Though the die-out would take a long time, the titles would eventually have little meaning.
This is my ignorance as an American of British politics, but what do the nobles in the House of Lords do? They don't govern the country any more, right, but I gather that they still meet -- what do they do?

 

[NGalitzine]

A sort version.....The House of Lords in now made up of Life Peers, who are largely party affiliated appointments. They function as the house of sober second thought, have committees to review bills and other issues, reviews Commons bills. Bills from the House of Commons must also be passed in the House of Lords before becoming law. Only Finance bills cannot be delayed by the Lords.

 

[AnnEliza]

I see..thanks for the explanation. So hereditary peers no longer are members of the House of Lords? Is it essentially a royal appointment then?

 

[NGalitzine]

The hereditary peers no longer have the automatic right to sit in the House of Lords, and can in fact run for seats in the House of Commons. They could also, on their own merit, be appointed as life peers. Life Peers are largely party political appointments and sit for their lifetimes. While their children are accorded the courtesy stylings of children of Barons they do not inherit their parents peerages.

 

[Al_bina]

Marchioness of Worcester: organic diet helped me beat breast cancer - Telegraph

 

[AnnEliza]

The hereditary peers no longer have the automatic right to sit in the House of Lords, and can in fact run for seats in the House of Commons. They could also, on their own merit, be appointed as life peers. Life Peers are largely party political appointments and sit for their lifetimes. While their children are accorded the courtesy stylings of children of Barons they do not inherit their parents peerages.

Is this the case in Canada as well as the UK?

 

[Trillian]

What would the House of Lords in the UK have to do with the upper house of any other Commonwealth member country?

 

[AnnEliza]

I don't know how the Canadian government functions. I know they have a Prime Minister, and I was under the impression they have a parliament, so I wondered if they have life peers as well; I don't know how similar their government is to the UK's, that's why I'm asking. I never said the upper house in the UK has anything to do with that of Canada, but am wondering if they're similar.

 

[VictoriaB]

I don't know how the Canadian government functions. I know they have a Prime Minister, and I was under the impression they have a parliament, so I wondered if they have life peers as well; I don't know how similar their government is to the UK's, that's why I'm asking. I never said the upper house in the UK has anything to do with that of Canada, but am wondering if they're similar.

I don't believe Canada's honors system allows for the creation of knights or peers.

This link is to the Governor General's website. It seems that Canada, like Australia, took the decision to create an honor system that stops short of creating titles.

http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=67

 

[AnnEliza]

I don't believe Canada's honors system allows for the creation of knights or peers.

This link is to the Governor General's website. It seems that Canada, like Australia, took the decision to create an honor system that stops short of creating titles.

The Governor General of Canada > Canadian Honours System

Thank you for the link, it's very informative.

 

[VictoriaB]

On the proposals for equal primogeniture thread I've been very forthright in my opinion that men and women should be treated equally. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other forum members about the way in which the honours system treats men and women.

For example when Paul McCartney became Sir Paul, Linda automatically became Lady McCartney yet when Judi Dench became Dame Judi, the female equivalent, her husband remained plain Michael Williams.

Should the husband of a Dame be entitled to an honorary title? Should wives of knights continue to be known by an honorary title?

Except for the response of its always been done that way, why treat the spouses differently?

Britain is proposing to introduce same-sex marriages. What should be the position of, for example, David Furnish (Sir Elton John's partner)?

I'm honestly not looking to pick a fight, I'm genuinely interested in hearing people's views. My preference (nobody will be surprised to hear) would be to end the practice of giving an honorary title to wives.

 

[AnnEliza]

On the proposals for equal primogeniture thread I've been very forthright in my opinion that men and women should be treated equally. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other forum members about the way in which the honours system treats men and women.

For example when Paul McCartney became Sir Paul, Linda automatically became Lady McCartney yet when Judi Dench became Dame Judi, the female equivalent, her husband remained plain Michael Williams.

Should the husband of a Dame be entitled to an honorary title? Should wives of knights continue to be known by an honorary title?

Except for the response of its always been done that way, why treat the spouses differently?

Britain is proposing to introduce same-sex marriages. What should be the position of, for example, David Furnish (Sir Elton John's partner)?

I'm honestly not looking to pick a fight, I'm genuinely interested in hearing people's views. My preference (nobody will be surprised to hear) would be to end the practice of giving an honorary title to wives.

It's a good question. I guess that despite having always been strongly in favor of equal rights, I see the titles as traditional and charming the way they are. But I'm an American and not familiar with how titles really play out in daily life.

 

[Furienna]

It is a little bit weird, that women can share their husband's title, but a man can't share his wife's title. But I guess it's hard to change that tradition, especially when it comes to Paul McCartney, Judi Drench and Elton John, whose titles aren't hereditary.

 

[gerry]

Is this the case in Canada as well as the UK?

The Canadian parliament is similar to the British model except our upper house is called the senate, it's members are senators who are appointed to terms of office limited to eight years and who are chosen based on political affiliation, territorial representation and perceived merit. The positions are well paid and usually considered a gift for service to the current prime minister, conservative Stephen harper, although many senators are still appointees of the previous liberal administrations.. All new federal laws in canada must be read and agreed upon in both parliamentary chambers, before being signed into law by the Governor General, queen Elizabeth's Canadian representative. Hope this helps understand how Canadian government works

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^
Actually I believe Senators in Canada serve until they are 75 years of age. It used to be for life. Alberta has tinkered with the idea of electing Senators but in reality they do have to be appointed by the GG on the advice of the PM.

 

[Nice Nofret]

not 50 years ago the wife of a doctor or professor had been called 'Frau Doktor Soundo' bzw. 'Frau Professor Soundso'; a woman took the female form of her husbands name and title; nowadays women do have their own opportunities and chances to have a carrier - so they prefer do be called by their own achievements.

I also chose to keep my name, when we married. From this year, that is also the new 'norm' in Switzerland. I'm happy with that idea.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Is it because a woman takes her husband's status and can be elevated (or lowered) when she marries? What I mean is when the daughter of a peer marries someone below her rank, doesn't she automatically take his rank? If so, then when a man is knighted, his wife takes his rank, but when a woman is made a dame, her husband cannot share in the rank. I am not saying I am in favor of this, but it is probably why Judi Dench's husband did not become Sir whatever. It is tradition.

 

[Al_bina]

A real-life Downton dilemma: Baron with eight daughters but no sons faces his title passing to a distant cousin | Mail Online

Undoubtedly the Earl of Grantham would sympathise with his predicament.
An elderly baron with eight daughters and a 6,000-acre estate faces his title being passed to a distant cousin – because he has no sons.
The dilemma echoes the plot of ITV series Downton Abbey, where the Earl of Grantham grapples with the problem of having three daughters but no male heir.
But in the real-life drama, the case of the 10th Baron Braybrooke has prompted a campaign to change the ancient law that stops daughters from inheriting titles.

 

[NGalitzine]

The laws on Entailed Estates were changed in 1925. While the barony will pass to the cousin I can see no reason why the estate and private fortune could not pass according to the terms of the fathers will. It has certainly happened on other families where one branch got a title and the other kept the estate and the fortune (Lady Anne Cavendish Bentinck of the Portlands comes to mind).

 

[Furienna]

I still think his eldest daughter should be able to inherit the barony too. It's weird that it wasn't so even back in the days of "Downton Abbey".