The British Nobility thread 1: Ending 2022

[Lumutqueen]

That poor little guy!

 

[Artemisia]

Poor kid, bullies are going to have a field day. Triple Douglas is just too much.
Sometimes parents should really think about consequences before naming their kids.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well at least when someone calls him Douglas it won't matter to him if they are calling him by his first name, family name or title. Maybe he will actually just use the name Charles. Anyway he will probably acquire a totally unrelated nickname in school.

It also seems to be something of a family tradition, for at least the last 4 dukes, to include the name Douglas amongst the heirs Christian names.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Duke's son launches legal battle after claiming he was 'duped' into selling £10m painting for just £4m | Mail Online

A member of one of Britain’s most colourful aristocratic families has launched a legal battle to recover a painting he says he was duped into selling for less than half its true £10 million value.
Lord Edward Spencer-Churchill, 37, a son of the Duke of Marlborough, claims he was ‘screwed’ into agreeing a price of £4 million for Jean-Michel Basquiat’s 1983 work Museum Security (Broadway Meltdown) last year.

 

[Al_bina]

Lady Mary Charteris weds in an odd cutaway bridal gown by Pam Hogg | Mail Online

Was the dress supposed to be edgy? Lady Mary looked cheap.

 

[sirhon11234]

While not traditional by many people's standards, if the bride loved her dress and was happy more power to her. Everyone has their own unique taste.

 

[MAfan]

Nicole, Duchess of Bedford, née Schneider, passed away in Monte Carlo on 7 September 2012, aged 92.

She was born at Paris on 29 June 1920. Aged 18, she married to painter Henri Millinaire, by whom she had four children: Didier, Catherine, Gilles and Agnes.
Her first marriage wasn't a happy one. In 1960, she married secondly (as his third wife) to John Russel, 13th Duke of Bedford; they didn't have children together. Their marriage lasted until the Duke died in 2002.

She is survived by her two sons and one daughter (a daughter having predeceased her in 1998).

Nicole, Duchess of Bedford - Telegraph
Nicole Milinaire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MAfan]

The Dowager Duchess of Nortumberland, née Lady Elizabeth Montagu-Douglas-Scott, passed away on 19 September 2012, aged 90.

She was born in London on 20 January 1922, the eldest daughter of the 8th Duke and Duchess of Buccleuch and Queensberry; her paternal aunt was the late HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.
She married in 1946 to Hugh Percy, 10th Duke of Northumberland (1914-1988). They became parents of seven children together; of them, the eldest son, Henry, 11th Duke of Nortumberland, predeceased her in 1995, while one daughter Lady Louise died soon after the birth in 1962.

BBC News - Dowager Duchess of Northumberland, 90, dies at home
Northumberland
Buccleuch & Queensberry

 

[Jcsc]

A shame about the Dowager Duchess of Northumberland. Just two weeks ago I watched on YouTube a documentary about the 1939 debutante season and she had a good many stories to tell in it.

 

[MAfan]

Another obituary of the late Dowager Duchess of Northumberland, from the Telegraph:
The Dowager Duchess of Northumberland - Telegraph

 

[Lenora]

Jemma, 38, who is married to the Duke of Wellington’s grandson, the Earl of Mornington, has been forced to put her celebrity make-up company into administration after it ran up debts of more than £2 million.

Read more: RICHARD KAY: Jemma Kidd's make-up empire goes into administration | Mail Online

 

[Artemisia]

Jemma Kidd's makeup is really excellent quality (her foundation has to be one most my favourite ones ever, be it High Street or high end), so I'm a bit surprised to learn of the company's difficulties. This said, even the most promising venture can go bankrupt without a proper administration.

 

[Al_bina]

Love's in fashion for lord and son: Queen's cousin and Prince Charles' godson look smitten in London | Mail Online

 

[madeleineleigh]

^ At least Nicholas looks a lot healthier, though I dare not utter the word clean yet, given his history.

 

[Kotroman]

Does anyone (or is anyone able to find out or tell me how to find out) if Sally, Duchess of Newcastle, and Anne, Duchess of Leinster, are still alive? I would really appreciate it

 

[NGalitzine]

Does anyone (or is anyone able to find out or tell me how to find out) if Sally, Duchess of Newcastle, and Anne, Duchess of Leinster, are still alive? I would really appreciate it

You could try searching thepeerage.com
Anne appears to still be alive, I did not look for Sally.
- Person Page 7233

 

[Kotroman]

I had tried thepeerage.com but it's often out of date. I doubt there really are that many supercentenarians in the Howard family, for example I'm especially curious about Sally, as she (if alive) is the last trace of the Dukedom of Newcastle.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Have you tried Wikipedia?

 

[Artemisia]

Does anyone (or is anyone able to find out or tell me how to find out) if Sally, Duchess of Newcastle, and Anne, Duchess of Leinster, are still alive? I would really appreciate it

The Dowager Duchess of Newcastle (nee Sally Ann Anstice, daughter of Brigadier John Anstice, and the third and final wife of Henry Pelham-Clinton-Hope, 9th Duke of Newcastle-under-Lyne) is definitely still alive.

I am not entirely certain about The Dowager Duchess of Leinster (nee Anne Smith, daughter of Lt. Col. Philip Eustace Smith, and second wife of Gerald FitzGerald, 8th Duke of Leinster), however all the sources point at her being alive and well.

 

[Kotroman]

That's fascinating! Thank you very much.

...all the sources point at her being alive and well.

Can you please tell me what sources are you referring to?

 

[Lenora]

A BBC documentary will claim a mystery man was living in the house where Lord Lucan's nanny was murdered.
The man may have been the boyfriend of one of the women in the property at the time nanny Sandra Rivett was battered to death there in 1974.


Read more: Mystery man may have lived in home where Lord Lucan's nanny was bludgeoned to death, BBC documentary claims | Mail Online

 

[Kataryn]

We need equality too, say daughters of aristocrats - Telegraph

New laws which would allow a daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to become Queen have prompted calls for the aristocracy to overhaul its own traditions to grant women equality with men.



My stance on this is: Be careful what you wish for. While the monarchy is very much part of Britain's democratic society, the aristocracy isn't any more. They are relicts from the past where they were needed by the monarch to rule and to defend the country, they later became as Lords of the House of Lords the peers of the monarch when it came to ruling the country. Today elected politicians rule Britain in the name of the monarch who represents his or her country. So it makes absolute sense to modernize the line of succession. While it would equally make sense to abolish the aristocracy completely, as they are not longer needed and are opposed to the idea that in a democracy all people have the same basic rights.

 

[fearghas]

We need equality too, say daughters of aristocrats - Telegraph

New laws which would allow a daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to become Queen have prompted calls for the aristocracy to overhaul its own traditions to grant women equality with men.



My stance on this is: Be careful what you wish for. While the monarchy is very much part of Britain's democratic society, the aristocracy isn't any more. They are relicts from the past where they were needed by the monarch to rule and to defend the country, they later became as Lords of the House of Lords the peers of the monarch when it came to ruling the country. Today elected politicians rule Britain in the name of the monarch who represents his or her country. So it makes absolute sense to modernize the line of succession. While it would equally make sense to abolish the aristocracy completely, as they are not longer needed and are opposed to the idea that in a democracy all people have the same basic rights.

This is what I was going to say as well. I think that that the result would be to abolish heridtary titles altogether.

 

[Kataryn]

And a new article:
My daughter is the victim of a flawed system - Telegraph

 

[Kotroman]

Ridiculous. Her daughter is not a victim of anything. None of them are. They are who they are and where they are precisely thanks to the "flawed system". Had females been allowed to succeed to the titles, their husbands and fathers would have never inherited them and they would've never had what they do have. The titles that were granted to a person and his/her heirs male of the body lawfully begotten should pass to heirs male lawfully begotten. The titles that were intended to be able to pass to females and through females such pass accordingly. I wouldn't mind if the hereditary titles were granted with remainder to heirs male and female alike or heirs female only in the future, but altering the existing ones is something that only ever happened once (to the Dukedom of Marlborough, which passes according to the most peculiar system I've ever heard of).

Now, all this equality crap makes no sense when dealing with things like nobility and peerage. How on Earth can one call for equality when the whole point of nobility is unequality? The system of nobility discriminates against all children except for the eldest legitimate son (or in some cases, all but the eldest legitimate daughter). It discriminates against the rest of the society just as much.

Now, why wouldn't titles be allowed to pass to illegitimate children as well? Why is it not okay to pass over legitimate daughters but is okay to pass over all recognised illegitimate children? I really hope they don't open that big can of worms.

 

[Furienna]

Now, all this equality crap makes no sense when dealing with things like nobility and peerage. How on Earth can one call for equality when the whole point of nobility is unequality? The system of nobility discriminates against all children except for the eldest legitimate son (or in some cases, all but the eldest legitimate daughter). It discriminates against the rest of the society just as much.

Now, why wouldn't titles be allowed to pass to illegitimate children as well? Why is it not okay to pass over legitimate daughters but is okay to pass over all recognised illegitimate children? I really hope they don't open that big can of worms.

Good points.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

It is 2012, let them inherit. I understand that estates, fortunes, etc, have been kept together for literally hundreds of years with the oldest son, but come on, let the girls have be able to inherit, the money, homes, etc. Heck, if not for women, the Greek Royal Family, and the Mountbattens/Battenbergs would not have a pot to pee in. Thanks to: Princess Marie Boneparte - how many relatives did she support????, Princess Anastasia (former Nancy Leeds), Edwina Ashley (My God, the people she sent checks and paid for...poor lady), Marie Chantal, etc.

Many of these women are vibrant, intelligent ladies such as the Duchess of Rutland and the Lady Romsey, who run the estates in the absense or withering of husbands who have titles, but not enough backbone. The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire certainly played a HUGE role in ensuring Chatsworth was able to move into the 21st century.

 

[Kotroman]

Let them inherit? Titles? Why? Nobody says they're not capable of holding a title. You can't really be incapable of being titled. The point is that titles that can only pass to males were granted to "XXX and his/her heirs male", and should thus pass to heirs male.

Should Princess Beatrice all of a sudden become 2nd Duchess of York? I don't think so. Titles are usually deliberately created with restrictions to succession. That's what's allowed the Dukedom of York to be recreated for the second son since the Wars of the Roses. That's what allows Prince and Princess William to be known as Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

As I said, succession to peerage titles is not something that should be done retroactively. If necessary, grant titles with different remainders in the future, but don't mess with the existing ones.

And the "it's 2012"/"it's the 21st century" argument isn't really convincing. It can only make one wonder why hereditary titles and nobility still exist. If they are going to exist, they should exist as relicts of history. Nobody can possibly make them "undiscriminatory" or "equality-suiting", and nobody should try to - unless the ultimate goal is to have them abolished altogether.

 

[NGalitzine]

Either keep this as things as they are according to each peerages letters patent or abolish all the hereditary peerages (which would certainly be the simplest solution). They no longer play a role in the governance of the nation so I cannot see any good reason for the government to waste time on something which is essentially a private club when the givernment should be dealing with the important issues of the day.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

The government has much bigger issues to deal with. As we've seen with Nick Clegg's attempt at having elected 'Senators' in the Lords, these issues require lots of debate and in most cases a referendum (in the case of the Lords)
If the government tried to just 'abolish' hereditary titles, they would be tied up in litigation for a 100 years.