The Act of Settlement 1701 and the Line of Succession 1: Ending 2022

[Warren]

I'm just surprised that England and Scotland allowed female monarchs so early in their history. This was so far in advance of the notion that women were people in their own right and had their own rights.

The notion of a female Queen of England goes back even further. Matilda daughter of Henry I, was proclaimed Queen of England in 1141. The barons would not accept her and instead backed her cousin Stephen. Matilda did however have the last laugh; by marrying Geoffrey Plantagenet she co-founded the dynasty that ruled England from 1154 (their son Henry II) to 1485 (Richard III).

 

[Queen Mary I]

There's that very grand story about Queen Mary and the suffragette. A lady at court threw herself in front of Queen Mary and said, "Help Us Ma'am - We must be able to vote!". The Queen looked out of the window, said "Charming Weather we're having" and walked on past as if nothing had happened. So, Queen Mary was against women voting but for her grand-daughter ruling. As you say Lady Marmalade - fascinating and strange.

Didn't Queen Victoria reign and not 'rule' by her time? Or was this after her death that it became a constitutional monarchy? I need to brush up on my British history.

 

[Queen Mary I]

The 'problem' is that if they change the law to allow Catholics to come to the throne then are they going to change it to allow buddhists, muslims, jews and mormons to become Sovereign? I hate to sound 'racist' but I'd prefer a Christian Sovereign only - whatever their denomination (whatever my personal preference).

As a Catholic I wouldn't mind the monarch being required to stay or to be Anglican. It doesn't offend me. It is the Royal family's heritage and personal faith. I am content to know that their pre-Henry VIII ancestors were Roman Catholic. It's just a nice thing to know.

I have mulled this over though. What about the Jacobites? The descendants of James II-where would they fit in to the picture if at all? I did read on the BBC page once that the would be Catholic King is a nice guy who isn't interested in being a monarch.

If they change things I suppose William could do right by the Jacobites and marry one of their Princesses to make up for Bonnie Prince Charlie's descendants being shut out. Then again never mind!

 

[Queen Mary I]

Salic Law is male succession only. Liechtenstein has Salic Law; Part III Article 12 of the House Laws 1993 of the Princely House states that only males can succeed to the throne.

I thought we were talking about changing the law to allow someone in the line of succession to keep their place if they married a Roman Catholic. The Act of Settlement also states "That whosoever shall hereafter come to the possession of this Crown, shall join in communion with the Church of England, as by law established.".So we are safe from Tom Cruise and the Scientologists, at least in the short term.

Yes when I saw that about Salic law it confused me a bit because I remember in the Kenneth Branaugh film "Henry V" the king mentions Salic law, and he asks his advisors if he should have a right to France because of this law. He told them to take care with their answer so to not 'awaken his sleeping sword of war'.

Another problem with changing the law as to religion-what of the Regalia which has the cross atop? And the Archbishop of Canterbury cannot very well crown or anoint a Jewish or Hindu monarch. I mean I suppose he could but I imagine the peoples of those non-Christian faiths would not be too happy about it. This is very interesting because I have read that the Archbishop wants to make the next coronation inclusive-not have clergy of other faiths just read a line or two from their respective scriptures but to actually take part in the ceremony in a meaningful way. I have read that this would include doing away with Holy Communion for the Coronation. I will try to find the article where I read it and post! It's online somewhere!

I am listening to my CD of the Coronation Of Queen Elizabeth II. How thrilling to hear "Zadok The Priest and Nathan the Prophet anointed Solomon King". But who will get to do the anointing in the next Coronation I wonder? If they change the law I mean.

 

[ksenia]

I think that it would be nice to have other clergy present at the coronation but to change the actual ceremony would be too much. Leave the tradition as it is because it is a religious ceremony. if you want it to be a purly civil thing then why have a coronation at all?

 

[Queen Mary I]

I'm not sure I'd count Mary I as one of our better monarchs.

She's my favorite British Queen Regent. She wasn't the best but then she had the worst father in the world. My heart just went out to her when I started to learn about her story as a teenager. I mean really learn. I had heard the 'Bloody Mary' stories in grade school. As one of her biographers wrote her father was bloodier-he just had a better PR man. He and Elizabeth had better advisors too.

Anyway back to the subject! The one problem I have with the Act Of Settlement is that I find the specific 'Catholic' reference offensive. It was understandable in the time of the Glorious Revolution. But that was then, this is now and we're all friends now. People of all faiths I mean at least in the Western World. Well most of us.

 

[Queen Mary I]

By hanging Catholics?

Uh oh. This seems like an interesting subject but in a thread all it's own!

All ruling monarchs in British history persecuted or discriminated against subjects not of their faiths.

Henry VIII is unique in that he burned 'Protestant' heretics (he was 'Catholic' in his beliefs) and at once he beheaded Catholics for not swearing allegiance to him instead of the Pope. The Protestant Queen Elizabeth I had her Catholic cousin Mary, Queen Of Scots beheaded, and I am sure did all she could as did Protestant subjects (and rightly so I think) to denigrate the memory of her half-sister Queen Mary I. I think it is fascinating, and touching too in a way that Mary and her little half-sister rest together in eternity. Of course little sis has the monument (I wish they'd add one for Mary but that's just me). I like the inscription on their tombstone. I also like that James I had an even grander monument made for his Mama. I hope William does the same for Diana one day. I would if she had been my mom. And something much better than the tacky trench they call a memorial fountain.

And speaking of Mary, Queen Of Scots that is one title I would like to see again. King or Queen Of Scots added to the monarchs other titles. I'm a sucker for Braveheart.

edited to add 'discriminated' against. Not all sovereigns were 'whack happy'. Beheaded I mean.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Isn't Queen Elizabeth II known by another numeral in Scotland?

 

[Lady Marmalade]

My pleasure.

There are some fun forums to read in the British Royals section. I usually find the opinions, facts, concepts, and points of view are the most interesting to read in these.

And I am a sucker for Prince Andrew and Peter Phillips...I admit it....

I think, Warren the moderator, just shakes his head now when us girls go into gossip mode like teenagers about these two...

He is a sweetheart.

 

[Queen Mary I]

I think that it would be nice to have other clergy present at the coronation but to change the actual ceremony would be too much. Leave the tradition as it is because it is a religious ceremony. if you want it to be a purly civil thing then why have a coronation at all?

You know what I am afraid of? That they will eliminate the Coronation totally and just have an swearing in. It seems I've waited my whole life to see one and it would be such a bummer if the go the route of some of the other monarchies-the Regalia laid out but no crowning. And since I am on that subject I would dearly love to see Coronations making a comeback for all the Royal families. I was a little girl but I vaguely remember King Juan Carlos's Investiture. I think it was Juan Carlos! Or maybe it was a Prince? Anyway they showed a little bit of it on TV. Royalty was a big deal because of our own princess Her Late Serene Highness Princess Grace may she rest in peace. Anyway the day after the Investiture I remember one of the articles headed with "Where's The Majesty?". It was basically like a civil wedding in a tiny office with no Pomp no Circumstance.

 

[ysbel]

And I am a sucker for Prince Andrew and Peter Phillips...I admit it....

Did someone mention Andrew? We need a heart icon.

Glad to find you've found yourself a home Queen Mary I. Yes, Mary I is someone I have great sympathy for. She was horribly treated in her youth. I still remember reading with tears the time when she just snapped and refused to get carted off to follow Anne Boleyn from one house to the next and she was forcibly shoved in the carriage.

 

[Queen Mary I]

Isn't Queen Elizabeth II known by another numeral in Scotland?

I don't think so and this is why I brought up the 'Queen Of Scots' issue. I recently read that some in Scotland prefer this as it is a part of their heritage-and now they have a separate Parliament. I would love to see them restore the Scottish Coronation too. Right now it is similar to other European houses in that the Regalia is just laid out and the new Monarch is sworn in. That is so not 15TH Century! Robert The Bruce would not be amused!

 

[Queen Mary I]

There's that very grand story about Queen Mary and the suffragette. A lady at court threw herself in front of Queen Mary and said, "Help Us Ma'am - We must be able to vote!". The Queen looked out of the window, said "Charming Weather we're having" and walked on past as if nothing had happened. So, Queen Mary was against women voting but for her grand-daughter ruling. As you say Lady Marmalade - fascinating and strange.

I love the quote attributed to her Late Majesty Queen Mary when she was asked if she had any regrets in life.

'I never climbed a fence' was her response.

 

[Queen Mary I]

While Mary I was a good woman deep within her heart, she is one of the main reasons Catholics are excluded from the throne in my opinion. Her brutality against anyone not Catholic was horrible. At least her sister Elizabeth I tried to bring some tolerance to the table.

One good thing all biographers say about Mary I is that she had great courage and demonstrated more so than Elizabeth I even. There is one story that as Mary and Elizabeth were making there way to Mass one day (Liz was going reluctanly I am sure ) someone shouted 'TREASON'. Elizabeth it is said ducked and seemed quite frightened. Mary kept right on walking as if nothing had happened. I think between the two Mary had it the worst. Elizabeth had youth and the Protestant Reformation on her side. Mary was illegitimized, made Elizabeth's Lady In Waiting, and generally humiliated by Anne Boleyn. The same would happen to Elizabeth in her turn but Mary's youth was over by the time her baby Protestant half-brother Edward VI died. Mary was a devout Catholic sandwiched between a maniac of a father who thought nothing of murdering two wives-and threatening the other four with death and two Protestant siblings. She didn't have a chance to make her mark in history. In books I have read her brother Edward VI is believed to have been fiercely Protestant and would have persecuted as many Catholics if he had grown up-and he might have even gone as far as to execute his own sister. Sibling love had nothing to do with it. It was what they were taught to believe regarding God and the fear of eternal damnation if they did not hold up what each fervently believed to be the 'True' Faith. Heretics were burned in all the Tudor reigns. Mary's was the most extreme example. Her reign was a brief six years and that is all she had left to live. I wonder how things might have turned out if she had succeeded her father in the bloom of youth-and with no Reformation? No Anne Boleyn?

All three Tudor Princes-Mary, Edward, and Elizabeth were highly intelligent and extremely well educated. Elizabeth by far had the best advisors. Like her father. She was also by far the most tolerant-though Catholics were persecuted in her reign too, Mary, Queen Of Scots was beheaded, and it all nearly exploded in James I's reign. It was because of the persecution of Catholics had to endure that Guy Fawkes plotted against James.

And let us not forget the innocent Catholics who went to their deaths because of Titus Oake's admitted lies in the reign of Charles II.

There were Martyrs to both Faiths throughout British history. But I am happy to see we are friends now. Who would ever have thought to see a British Prince and the Archbishop Of Canterbury at Pope John Paul II's funeral? I thought it was quite moving that we have come so far.

It is interesting that some members of the Royal family and Diana's late mother too I think converted to the Catholic faith. I would love to know their reasons as I have been seriously considering converting from Catholic to Anglican for some years now!

 

[Queen Mary I]

Did someone mention Andrew? We need a heart icon.

Glad to find you've found yourself a home Queen Mary I. Yes, Mary I is someone I have great sympathy for. She was horribly treated in her youth. I still remember reading with tears the time when she just snapped and refused to get carted off to follow Anne Boleyn from one house to the next and she was forcibly shoved in the carriage.

Edward and Elizabeth really had the better time of it growing up than their big half-sister. Henry the VIII who I consider a wicked man 'legally' bastardized both of his daughters for his own ends. As one biographer put it he cuckholded his first wife to death, beheaded the next, drove his third wife into the grave due to his obsession to gain a son, divorced another, beheaded yet another, and sixth wife just managed to outlive him. I do not like Old Hal at all. Edward VI should be buried next to his mother. Henry threatened her too-indeed all six of his wives with death at one point or another. He doesn't deserve to lie next to any of them. Whoo! I do keep grudges for a long time-I admit it LOL!

My heart breaks for the Protestants who were burned in Mary's reign. And in her grandmother Isabel I's reign. But it was something that was done in those times-by all monarchs. Protestant and Catholic alike.

There is a line in the Bible I think about 'burn all heretics' and like todays more fanatical Muslims and indeed some Christian sects they really take the WORD in their respective Holy Books as absolute literal meaning. So much suffering in the past, and so much now too because of one human being imposing his or her idea of God on another-and if you don't like it you die in the name of whatever God you believe in.

 

[Queen Mary I]

Isn't Queen Elizabeth II known by another numeral in Scotland?

I found the article I read some time ago calling for the Queen to change her title to Elizabeth, Queen Of Scots - when she is in Scotland:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2002596.stm

I think this is more correct. It honors rather than airbrushes out Scotland's Royal history and how it styled it's monarchs.

edited to add I read the article too quick the first time-they want her to change her numeral as well! Very interesting. Elizabeth I, Queen Of Scots.

However-should she even have a numeral? I thought numerals were only added if a monarch who followed somewhere in the succession had the same name. For example in her day my fave Queen Regent Mary I was called Queen Mary in her day-not Mary I. That was after Queen Mary II and her husband William came to the throne.

 

[Iain]

The Scots themselves have never used the term Elizabeth II and in the early days of the queen's reign post boxes with EIIR on it were blown up so today the monogram is never seen in Scotland and post boxes and post vans just have the Scottish crown on it. When Elizabeth opened the new parliament building last year she was officially welcomed as Queen of Scots. You are correct about the numeral I but I believe that in Belgium King Baudouin was termed Baudouin I.

And I don't think Robert the Bruce would have been too bothered about there not being a coronation ceromony. The Scots have always been ahead of their time. The Scots monarchs didn't rule by "Divine right" as in other countries. They were the "first among equals" and if they proved to be a bad monarch the people had the right to remove them and replace them with another member of the royal family.

Also, regarding female successsion, can I point out that the first female monarch was Queen Margaret (the Maid of Norway) who succeded her grandfather Alexander III in 1286 and died in 1290.

 

[Margrethe II]

and in the early days of the queen's reign post boxes with EIIR on it were blown up

Now they are the kinda people one would invite to a garden party.lol.

"MII"

P.S "QMI" I am thoroughly enjoying your contributions my dear. Keep them coming sweetheart!

 

[Queen Mary I]

The Scots themselves have never used the term Elizabeth II and in the early days of the queen's reign post boxes with EIIR on it were blown up so today the monogram is never seen in Scotland and post boxes and post vans just have the Scottish crown on it. When Elizabeth opened the new parliament building last year she was officially welcomed as Queen of Scots. You are correct about the numeral I but I believe that in Belgium King Baudouin was termed Baudouin I.

And I don't think Robert the Bruce would have been too bothered about there not being a coronation ceromony. The Scots have always been ahead of their time. The Scots monarchs didn't rule by "Divine right" as in other countries. They were the "first among equals" and if they proved to be a bad monarch the people had the right to remove them and replace them with another member of the royal family.

Also, regarding female successsion, can I point out that the first female monarch was Queen Margaret (the Maid of Norway) who succeded her grandfather Alexander III in 1286 and died in 1290.

I have read that King Charles II went to Scotland to be crowned-though of course not to London while Cromwell ruled-I wonder why this stopped? The coronation ceremony in Scotland I mean? I just love pomp and circumstance!

The movie "Braveheart" really made an impression on me. The actor Angus Macfayden who played the role of Robert The Bruce was a cutie. Women. I know. An online Scottish friend told me Mel Gibson's Scottish accent in "Braveheart" was 'a joke'. Ouch. I also loved "Rob Roy".

 

[Warren]

Liechtenstein eyes the prize!

What about the Jacobites? The descendants of James II-where would they fit in to the picture if at all? I did read on the BBC page once that the would be Catholic King is a nice guy who isn't interested in being a monarch.

Maybe not interested in being King of England, but King of Bavaria most certainly.

The "Representative and Heir of King Charles I of England", in other words the Jacobite Pretender to the British Crown, is HRH Franz, Duke of Bavaria, de juré King of Bavaria, Head of the House of Wittelsbach.

He is unmarried, so the Stuart rights will pass to his brother, HRH Max Emanuel, Hereditary Prince of Bavaria and Duke in Bavaria.
Duke Max Emanuel has five children, all daughters, two of whom have made glittering marriages. Princess/Duchess Marie-Caroline married Duke Philip of Württemberg.

Duke Max Emanuel's eldest daughter, and future Jacobite claimant, HRH Princess/Duchess Sophie, married Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechtenstein in 1993. They have four children the eldest being Prince Josef Wenzel, born 1995.

Thus at some point in the future the Jacobite Pretender to the British Crown will be none other than the reigning Prince of Liechtenstein, HSH Josef Wenzel II. This claim may come in handy if the Liechtensteiners decide their country too small and seek something bigger and better. We all know Prince Hans Adam is ambitious and clever, but how far will he go?
.

 

[Mapple]

I found the article I read some time ago calling for the Queen to change her title to Elizabeth, Queen Of Scots - when she is in Scotland:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2002596.stm

I think this is more correct. It honors rather than airbrushes out Scotland's Royal history and how it styled it's monarchs.

edited to add I read the article too quick the first time-they want her to change her numeral as well! Very interesting. Elizabeth I, Queen Of Scots.

However-should she even have a numeral? I thought numerals were only added if a monarch who followed somewhere in the succession had the same name. For example in her day my fave Queen Regent Mary I was called Queen Mary in her day-not Mary I. That was after Queen Mary II and her husband William came to the throne.

Actually, Queen Mary I was proclaimed as 'Queen Mary the First' in 1553, a unique case.

Elizabeth II is not legally Queen of Scots, although she was acclaimed as such, for example, by the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.

She is Elizabeth II in Scotland, too -- the court case which called in question her right to use that ordinal was lost.

 

[Mapple]

I have read that King Charles II went to Scotland to be crowned-though of course not to London while Cromwell ruled-I wonder why this stopped? The coronation ceremony in Scotland I mean? I just love pomp and circumstance!

The movie "Braveheart" really made an impression on me. The actor Angus Macfayden who played the role of Robert The Bruce was a cutie. Women. I know. An online Scottish friend told me Mel Gibson's Scottish accent in "Braveheart" was 'a joke'. Ouch. I also loved "Rob Roy".

James II was not crowned in Edinburgh because he was a Roman Catholic, I presume; I don't know whether William & Mary and Anne even contemplated the Scottish coronation. After that the crowns of England and Scotland were united, and the second coronation ceremony became redundant.

 

[ysbel]

Thus at some point in the future the Jacobite Pretender to the British Crown will be none other than the reigning Prince of Liechtenstein, HSH Josef Wenzel II. This claim may come in handy if the Liechtensteiners decide their country too small and seek something bigger and better. We all know Prince Hans Adam is ambitious and clever, but how far will he go?
.

Wouldn't he rather big a big fish in a little pond? Come to think of it, in Liechtenstein, he's the ONLY fish in the little pond.

 

[ysbel]

And I don't think Robert the Bruce would have been too bothered about there not being a coronation ceromony.

Au contraire, my good Iain, the Countess of Buchan herself crowned Robert the Bruce when she was just a child. It was de rigeur for the representatives of the most distinguised nobility to crown the King of Scots and the young Countess scandalized the medieval world by running away from her husband to take her brother's place in the ancient ceremonies.

Edward I paid her back though. On a mission to cut through Scotland, his forces captured her and he ordered that she be put in a wicker cage on the outside rampants of his castle open to the gaze of all who walked there. She was thus imprisoned for two years.

 

[Elspeth]

Edward I was such a sweetheart.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

WOW!! These are some of the most informative posts I have read on this site!

Thank you all for posting. Now I feel like I am getting a real education here.

Queen Mary I, thank you for the heart icon.

And thank you Iain for explaining the difference in Scotland and England over the correct title for QEII.

Elspeth, I also am not able to figure out why a person would be reprimanded for calling Queen Victoria, Queen Victoria....

 

[branchg]

The Queen is Sovereign over all her realms, including the United Kingdom of Great Britian (which includes Scotland) and Northern Ireland. Scotland is not a sovereign state, but part of the UK, so HM can only be Elizabeth II, not Queen of Scots.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Mmm..I don't think that is correct. She is not QEII in Scotland.

 

[Queen Mary I]

Maybe not interested in being King of England, but King of Bavaria most certainly.

The "Representative and Heir of King Charles I of England", in other words the Jacobite Pretender to the British Crown, is HRH Franz, Duke of Bavaria, de juré King of Bavaria, Head of the House of Wittelsbach.

He is unmarried, so the Stuart rights will pass to his brother, HRH Max Emanuel, Hereditary Prince of Bavaria and Duke in Bavaria.
Duke Max Emanuel has five children, all daughters, two of whom have made glittering marriages. Princess/Duchess Marie-Caroline married Duke Philip of Württemberg.

Duke Max Emanuel's eldest daughter, and future Jacobite claimant, HRH Princess/Duchess Sophie, married Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechtenstein in 1993. They have four children the eldest being Prince Josef Wenzel, born 1995.

Thus at some point in the future the Jacobite Pretender to the British Crown will be none other than the reigning Prince of Liechtenstein, HSH Josef Wenzel II. This claim may come in handy if the Liechtensteiners decide their country too small and seek something bigger and better. We all know Prince Hans Adam is ambitious and clever, but how far will he go?
.

Thank you for all the info! I once found a great site on the Jacobites but my computer crashed over the summer and I haven't been able to find it again. Some sweet person wrote in the "Find A Grave" Royal memorial for James II:

"The Cause still lives on Sir."

When I was a teenager I read a book on the Stuarts and one of Prince Charle's big sisters either Queen Mary II or Queen Anne (I'm going from memory here!) allegedly said something like 'my brother my poor brother' on her deathbed.

 

[Queen Mary I]

Actually, Queen Mary I was proclaimed as 'Queen Mary the First' in 1553, a unique case.

Elizabeth II is not legally Queen of Scots, although she was acclaimed as such, for example, by the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.

She is Elizabeth II in Scotland, too -- the court case which called in question her right to use that ordinal was lost.

Thank you very much for the explanation! I just love the way the title rolls off the tongue -

Mary, Queen Of Scots, Robert King Of Scots, Elizabeth Queen Of Scots!

I have read all the books I could find on Mary I-I must have missed that part about Queen Mary I in my eagerness!

I was so into reading about her as a kid that one summer I started dreaming about her-very real, a little scary dreams. In one I walked into a large, dark, ornate bedroom. I felt a pleasant breeze-and I knew Queen Mary I was lying on her bed but I couldn't see her-because of the drapery around the bed, and the darkness. I have read that she had a deep and husky voice (rather like Camilla's I imagine!) anyway in the dream I stepped into the room cautiously and asked 'Your Majesty?'? Out of the darkness a woman's deep, husky voice answered 'Yes?'. I woke up with my heart pounding and SPOOKED! The dream seemed so real LOL! I was raised by my late darling Aunt Lucy and when I told her about the dreams I was having she told me 'your reading too much about that Queen! Stop it! Before she shows up for real!'