State Visit from the President of South Africa: 22-24 November

[Somebody]

Well it's not really a matter of agreeing or not, they are junior ranking as a fact. The Duke is now only the King's second cousin.

That is only your interpretation of ranking and not a 'fact' - as there is no official definition of senior ranking and junior ranking royals. Unlike Charles first cousins, the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester are royal highnesses and, therefore, treated as far more important (and royals) than his cousins (who aren't) - for example, representing the king at a state visit unlike David and Sarah who might attend family events but don't represent the king in an official capacity.

And for the record, Richard isn't Charles's second cousin; they are first cousins once removed. Richard's children are Charles's second cousins.

Nonetheless, of course, Anne as well as Edward and Sophie might be given the honour from time to time as well.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The only time I can remember Charles, as PoW, attending the 'return banquet' was for Trump in 2019, but Trump was the President of the US so no surprise there.

Normally the Gloucester's have done the return banquet.

The blood relationship between Charles and Richard is one generation different to that of The Queen and Richard but the personal relationship is very different. Richard, like his older brother William, was very much a 'big brother' to Charles only being four years his senior. Charles even named both his sons after the Gloucester's - William and Henry (son and father).

This looks like a standard state visit - heavy royal involvement on day one and more limited, if any, after that.

 

[muriel]

But then the now King and Queen also didn't take that role when Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall. It have always been other royals like the Duke and Duchess of Kent, or Prince and Princess Michael of Kent or the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester.

Perhaps the Earl and Countess of Wessex will take that over at some point.

I appreciate that Charles, as PoW did not attend the Guildhall banquet, but there may be some history behind it. For the first 20-25 years of the Queen's reign, she had to rely on her cousins for support given the relatively few members of the BRF to carry out engagements. The Guildhall banquet probably fell to the Gloucesters, and once her own children grew up, the Queen did not want to replace the Gloucesters. That said, Anne did attend in 2017 when Felipe & Letizia were in London on a state visit.

The history is what it is, but I have often felt it odd for a key dinner as part of the state visit to have such a distant royal to be the "senior" royal. Really one for W&C in this reign, IMO.

The only time I can remember Charles, as PoW, attending the 'return banquet' was for Trump in 2019, but Trump was the President of the US so no surprise there.

The Queen and Prince Philip also attended the return banquet by the Obama's at Winfield House in 2011, so there is precedent for the monarch or the heir being present at a return banquet.

Normally the Gloucester's have done the return banquet.

Am I right in thinking that traditionally the Gloucester's have done the Guildhall banquet by the Lord Mayor, and not the return banquet, which tend to be few and far these days.

 

[Stefan]

The Queen and Prince Philip also attended the return banquet by the Obama's at Winfield House in 2011, so there is precedent for the monarch or the heir being present at a return banquet.

Unfortunately nowadays there are usually no return Events anymore as the State Visits became shorter and shorter and the second Evening is blocked by the Guildhall Banquet.

 

[sophie25]

The Michaels of Kent and the Duke and Duchess of Kent did it a few times and Princess Alexandra too but even then I thought it should have been one of the Queen's children and I think that even more now.

 

[iceflower]

South African President Cyril Ramaphosa arrived at Stansted Airport today, November 21:


** gettyimages gallery: GBR: South African President Arrives At London Stansted Ahead Of State Visit **

 

[camelot23ca]

I appreciate that Charles, as PoW did not attend the Guildhall banquet, but there may be some history behind it. For the first 20-25 years of the Queen's reign, she had to rely on her cousins for support given the relatively few members of the BRF to carry out engagements. The Guildhall banquet probably fell to the Gloucesters, and once her own children grew up, the Queen did not want to replace the Gloucesters. That said, Anne did attend in 2017 when Felipe & Letizia were in London on a state visit.

The history is what it is, but I have often felt it odd for a key dinner as part of the state visit to have such a distant royal to be the "senior" royal. Really one for W&C in this reign, IMO.

I agree, but to me this state visit is almost like the last one of the Queen’s reign, in the sense that most of the plans re: who was attending were likely made before she died.

Charles is no doubt aware that the start of a new reign is the best time to begin to make changes in high profile events like state visits, and it’s quite possible the Gloucesters will be happy to hand things over to more senior and well known members of the BRF. They’ve been around long enough to recognize that no one but the current monarch is indispensable in any royal family.

Although I would say that there’s nothing wrong with making the change gradually, over the next couple of years, again as long as the Gloucester’s are happy to continue.

 

[Saragli]

As I understand it, the host of the Guildhall Banquet is the Lord Mayor of the City of London, not the royals. So in some ways it makes sense to have the "lesser" royals do the Guildhall duty as it doesn't draw away too much focus from the host. I've also always felt that people misunderstood the Kings intention of "slimming down". I've always interpreted it as a blue print for moving forward, i.e. the York's and Sussex's, and not as ruthlessly cutting out royals who have spent decades supporting the Crown.

I am very much looking forward to the State Visit tomorrow!

 

[muriel]

Do we know what time the state visit starts?

 

[wbenson]

I think the arrival ceremony is at noon, in fifteen minutes. The South African Broadcasting Corporation is streaming it, and I think Sky News will be covering it as well.

Edit: Sky News

 

[iceflower]

The state visit has started:


** rex gallery **


** gettyimages gallery: GBR: The President Of The Republic Of South Africa Visits The United Kingdom - Day 1 **

 

[wartenberg7]

strange seating inside the coaches... The S A President, as guest of honour, was seated backwards facing King and Queen, while the P o Wales sat beside the president´s escort...!
I would have it prefers if the King sat with the president in coach no. 1, The Queen besides the presidents escort in coach no. 2 and the Prince and Prcss of Wales in coach 3!

 

[wbenson]

I would have it prefers if the King sat with the president in coach no. 1, The Queen besides the presidents escort in coach no. 2 and the Prince and Prcss of Wales in coach 3!

That's probably (based on past visits) what was originally planned, but the First Lady of South Africa pulled out of the trip at the last minute for medical reasons.

 

[Stefan]

How was that done earlier with carriages. First one the Queen and the Guest? Second on the Duke of Edinburgh and the partner of the guest or all 4 together in one carriage?

 

[wbenson]

It was usually the Queen and the visitor in the first carriage, the Duke of Edinburgh and the spouse in the second carriage, then whoever escorted the visiting head of state to the arrival ceremony in the third carriage with some members of the foreign suite. The Duke of Edinburgh would ride in the first carriage if the other head of state was traveling solo.

 

[wartenberg7]

That's probably (based on past visits) what was originally planned, but the First Lady of South Africa pulled out of the trip at the last minute for medical reasons.

Well, in that case they should have put the King and the president in the 1st coach and after that in coach 2 the Queen sitting beside the Prcss of Wales and the Prince of Wales, as a gentleman, facing them sitting backwards!
In fact, the president brought some female "stand-in" acting as First Lady during the state visit for his wife (don´t know who it is), who sat in coach no. 2 with the Waleses.
The south african president, who is today´s Britains guest of honour, having to ride backwards seems to be a bit unpolite to me.
Princess Catherine, as the 2nd lady of the country, riding in that same way I also find very unappropriate as well. When the late Queen travelled together with Charles and Diana/ Charles and Camilla, the Pr of Wales´s spouse sat beside HM while the Prince as a chivalrous gentleman always travelled backwards!

 

[Blog Real]

The Princess of Wales has arrived for tonight's State Banquet wearing the Lovers Knot tiara.
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...Zqe8sqAmChqzIJecPOh7bpm9LTsqjg/s720/imw30.jpg

More photos from the state banquet:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ers-Knot-Tiara-ahead-Kings-state-banquet.html

 

[wartenberg7]

A bit odd that the royal couple, not even the King, got an S A order...?! The president received the order of the Bath...

 

[Somebody]

No decorations? It seems they all wear the highest order of their own country...

 

[suztav]

Catherine looked like a goddess tonight. Absolutely stunning. Unfortunately, I am underwhelmed by Camilla’s first banquet as Queen Consort.

 

[duchessrachel]

I thought Catherine looked STUNNING and Camilla looked wonderful! However, I wish Sophie had stepped it up a little more in terms of her gown.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Did the Princess Royal not attend the State Banquet?

 

[wbenson]

No, she's in the Falkland Islands.

 

[iceflower]

Day 2, November 23, has started, the Earl of Wessex accompanied President Cyril Ramaphosa to the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew:


** gettyimages gallery: GBR: The President Of The Republic Of South Africa Visits The United Kingdom - Day 2 **

And here’s an extra article about the banquet attended by the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester:


** dm: Duchess of Gloucester looks regal in a silver cape and Queen Mary's honeysuckle tiara as she joins South African..**

 

[Mbruno]

No decorations? It seems they all wear the highest order of their own country...

The President of South Africa was wearing the Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, which seems to be the standard award in the UK for visiting presidents of republics (except those who are barred from receiving foreign orders such as the POTUS).



South Africa has recently changed its honors system. The Apartheid-era Order of the Good Hope has been discontinued and replaced with the Order of the Companions of O. R. Tambo, which doesn't have a riband. The badge is worn, as I understand, around the neck. I don't know if the King has not been awarded a South African order, or if he, for some reason, did not (or could not) wear the insignia. Maybe the South African press has an explanation.

Overall, seeing the video yesterday evening from the banquet, I had the impression that everybody was rather tense in their new roles, in particular Charles, Camilla, and Kate.

The Queen Consort was rather agitated and talking to the page behind her about something before they were seated and it is unclear to me what that was about.

The King's speech was fine, but he rushed a little bit into it and placed an unusal stress in some of his lines changing his voice tone in an odd way. In the first lines, he seemed to be saying "welcome" or, more precisely, "hello" to the President in several South African languages, but failed to say it also in Afrikaans. That might be considered OK by woke standards, but in my opinion is wrong. Afrikaans is not just the language of white Afrikaners. It is the language of more than 12 % of the population of South Africa and has more non-white than white L1 speakers, especially in the Western Cape and the Northern Cape. The language has been under vicious attack from the ANC, which has been shutting down Afrikaans schools and universities across the country or forcing them to switch to English-only instruction, in violation of the South African constitution, which guarantees home language education, and is now an endangered language, as controversially mentioned coincidentally this week by the actress Charlize Theron. I regret that the King failed to acknowledge the language's existence and its status as one of the 11 official languages of South Africa.

Queen Beatrix, by contrast, during her state visit to SA at the time of President Mandela, briefly changing to a few lines in (standard) Dutch, referred to Afrikaans, grouped with Dutch, as "onze taal", but, of course, the context was different.

 

[eya]

The President bids farewell to King Charles

 

[wartenberg7]

Could it really be that Britain has abolished the return banquets (or concerts, as it is often been done these days) all together...?!

I find these developments in the UK in the past few years very disturbing. How has the state guest the opportunity to thank the hosts and return the favours!?

 

[Mbruno]

Catherine looked like a goddess tonight. Absolutely stunning. Unfortunately, I am underwhelmed by Camilla’s first banquet as Queen Consort.

I think Camilla's "old" Honeycomb tiara is more regal than Queen Elizabeth II's Belgian sapphire tiara, which may be why it feels underwhelming for her gala debut as Queen Consort. That is just my opinion though.

 

[Stefan]

Could it really be that Britain has abolished the return banquets (or concerts, as it is often been done these days) all together...?!

I find these developments in the UK in the past few years very disturbing. How has the state guest the opportunity to thank the hosts and return the favours!

I think the Problem with the return Events at State Visits to the UK is that on the second evening there is almost always the Dinner given by the Lord Mayor. And usually the State Visit ends sometime at the third day (por in this case already on the second day). so there is no third evening.

 

[wartenberg7]

I think the Problem with the return Events at State Visits to the UK is that on the second evening there is almost always the Dinner given by the Lord Mayor. And usually the State Visit ends sometime at the third day (por in this case already on the second day). so there is no third evening.

This makes two invitations from the UK leaving the guest with the problem not to be able to give something in return to say "thank you" which, IMO, is a diplomatic faux pas...
Most state visits include 3 full days - this would make it possible to hold some formal event in return!