The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1421  
Old 07-02-2020, 04:17 AM
muriel's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London / Guildford, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Hasn't it been raised recently to 25 % rather than 15 % of the surplus revenue from the Crown Estate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Since 2017/18 itís been 25% yes.
As I understand it, that incremental 10% is the funding for the repairs and renewals works at BP.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1422  
Old 08-14-2020, 05:31 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
Anyway as an aside having read earlier comments - Harry's inherited wealth derives ultimately from surpluses from the Civil List or the duchies built up in the C20th century. Cash savings then invested & reinvested over decades. As well as not paying income tax for a significant period. That's where the monarchy's "private wealth" comes from. Both Balmoral & Sandringham (their "private" estates) were bought by Victoria from savings from her Civil List transferred to her privy purse.

In short Harry like the rest of them is the beneficiary of a system that supported the royal family from public funds for decade after decade.

Happy to continue the discussion in the finance thread if anyone is interested.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1423  
Old 08-14-2020, 11:55 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,387
Queen Victoria used part of the inheritance left her by a wealthy miser to build the 'new' Balmoral.

https://theroyalfirm.wordpress.com/2...lmoral-castle/

Since it was considered a personal inheritance, the money was Victoriaís to spend or invest as she liked. The Queen first ensured that Neildís servants were taken care of and increased their inheritance from £100 to £1,000 each. Victoria then repaired the roof and installed a stained glass window in the church where Neild was buried. Once these obligations were fulfilled, Victoria used £31,000 of her private inheritance to purchase and remodel the Balmoral estate for her family.
Reply With Quote
  #1424  
Old 08-15-2020, 02:47 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Queen Victoria used part of the inheritance left her by a wealthy miser to build the 'new' Balmoral.
Ahhh, this is, how they paid for it! Thank you very much, Curryong, for this find!

I was always wondering: Were the Windors much richer in the recent past? How did they purchase and/or built things like Balmoral?

Today, as the building costs are much lower, one wonders, how Meghan & Harry will finance their mortage and back then the Windsors did built holiday homes like this? But here is the answer: An inheritence from outside the family! Very interesting!
Reply With Quote
  #1425  
Old 08-15-2020, 03:36 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
Ahhh, this is, how they paid for it! Thank you very much, Curryong, for this find!

I was always wondering: Were the Windors much richer in the recent past? How did they purchase and/or built things like Balmoral?

Today, as the building costs are much lower, one wonders, how Meghan & Harry will finance their mortage and back then the Windsors did built holiday homes like this? But here is the answer: An inheritence from outside the family! Very interesting!
A lot of the wealth we see were gifts. Think about the enormous Greville Bequest, looking like the royal family being buried under jewels but many of these "just" come from a commoner bequeathing it to them. Not to mention Arab rulers showering British royals with diamonds or even an European monarch giving a top-breed stud horse as gift, see https://blauwbloed.eo.nl/fileadmin/b...71c8638930.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #1426  
Old 08-15-2020, 03:54 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Queen Victoria used part of the inheritance left her by a wealthy miser to build the 'new' Balmoral.

https://theroyalfirm.wordpress.com/2...lmoral-castle/

Since it was considered a personal inheritance, the money was Victoria’s to spend or invest as she liked. The Queen first ensured that Neild’s servants were taken care of and increased their inheritance from £100 to £1,000 each. Victoria then repaired the roof and installed a stained glass window in the church where Neild was buried. Once these obligations were fulfilled, Victoria used £31,000 of her private inheritance to purchase and remodel the Balmoral estate for her family.
Have a look at this twenty page academic article that explains in very great detail how Victoria came to the throne with nothing & died a very rich woman. She did this by banking surpluses from the civil list & the Duchy of Lancaster.

£ 1'300'000 in total

The article goes on to say that Victoria's private secretary told the Prime Minister's (Gladstone) private secretary that £400'000 from these savings had been spent on the "purchase, rebuilding & expansion of the Balmoral & Osborne estates".

The article also explains the context (urban growth) within which the income & value of both duchies increased exponentially during the C19th.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2639782...n_tab_contents


Her descendents did exactly the same & built up a large fortune in the C20th century.

The last Prince of Wales did the same from duchy surpluses.

The present great wealth of the royal family is incontrovertibly based on this type of activity.

And of course income tax was not paid by the monarch for nearly sixty years.

It is clear that the royal fortune is derived directly from state largesse. It is not a criticism of the institution to be open about the origins of its great wealth.
Reply With Quote
  #1427  
Old 08-15-2020, 04:06 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Have a look at this twenty page academic article that explains in great detail how Victoria came to the throne with nothing & died a very rich woman. She did this by banking surpluses from the civil list.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/2639782...n_tab_contents


Her descendents did exactly the same & built up a large fortune in the C20th century.

Probably true, but she was not the only royal to do it. Isn't it also what the Orange-Nassau family did in the Netherlands and also got quite wealthy in the process?


In fact, I don't think it is either legally or morally wrong to save on a state-provided income and invest it wisely if that is what they did. If anything, the fault lies with the government(s) of the day for not realizing they were overpaying the Royal House.
Reply With Quote
  #1428  
Old 08-15-2020, 04:44 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
In addition this practise of transferring savings from the civil list & the duchies had its critics at the time. An anonymous pamphlet circulated entitled "What Does She Do With It?".
Reply With Quote
  #1429  
Old 08-15-2020, 04:49 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Probably true, but she was not the only royal to do it. Isn't it also what the Orange-Nassau family did in the Netherlands and also got quite wealthy in the process?


In fact, I don't think it is either legally or morally wrong to save on a state-provided income and invest it wisely if that is what they did. If anything, the fault lies with the government(s) of the day for not realizing they were overpaying the Royal House.
Yes I agree with your point about the government

I have to disagree about the morality or ethics of it. Any surplus should have gone to the government in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #1430  
Old 08-15-2020, 04:57 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Yes I agree with your point about the government

I have to disagree about the morality or ethics of it. Any surplus should have gone to the government in my opinion.



But you can look at it in a different way as I hinted, i.e., that there was a surplus because the Royal Household was efficiently run and kept its expenses down.



Putting it in another way, if I live a frugal life and am good at saving money, does it follow that I should take a pay cut to break even rather than invest what I was able to save?
Reply With Quote
  #1431  
Old 08-15-2020, 05:03 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
But you can look at it in a different way as I hinted, i.e., that there was a surplus because the Royal Household was efficiently run and kept its expenses down.



Putting it in another way, if I live a frugal life and am good at saving money, does it follow that I should take a pay cut to break even rather than invest what I was able to save?
I don't see the equivalence I'm afraid. I could understand any savings going into some sort of fund for future contingencies (as indeed did happen towards the end of Victoria's reign when there was a period of deficits) but not forming part of a private fortune to be passed onto future generations.

And it wasn't all to do with economies anyway. The Lancaster surpluses were to do with the growth of urbanism. That's just good luck.
Reply With Quote
  #1432  
Old 08-15-2020, 05:11 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,190
I think its hard to look back now and say things were wrong by our standards now. The current sovereign and her advisors make a very distinction between public and private, there we historical anomalies but if we held everyone to that standard maybe even I'd be a millionaire today


Not to get off topic, but no royal finance reports yet? I'm sure Covid has had an impact but don't we usually get them July time?
Reply With Quote
  #1433  
Old 08-15-2020, 05:25 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I think its hard to look back now and say things were wrong by our standards now. The current sovereign and her advisors make a very distinction between public and private, there we historical anomalies but if we held everyone to that standard maybe even I'd be a millionaire today
There was criticism at the time but yes I take your point about not judging the past by present day standards. As I say it's not about making a judgement but rather being honest about how the royal family became so wealthy in the C20th.

As you know there is a lot of comment about the "private wealth" of the royal family on this forum as though it has nothing to do with their historically uniquely privileged position. That they can do what they want with their wealth. Well yes they can but I'm sure that they at least are sensitive to its origins & use.
Reply With Quote
  #1434  
Old 08-15-2020, 05:40 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
There was criticism at the time but yes I take your point about not judging the past by present day standards. As I say it's not about making a judgement but rather being honest about how the royal family became so wealthy in the C20th.

As you know there is a lot of comment about the "private wealth" of the royal family on this forum as though it has nothing to do with their historically uniquely privileged position. That they can do what they want with their wealth. Well yes they can but I'm sure that they at least are sensitive to its origins & use.



But then the whole story has to be told from the beginning. The civil list was not a privilege or a favor to the King, but compensation paid to the King for having transferred the Crown Estate (his formerly private wealth) to public ownership and surrendering its revenue to the Treasury. In a way, it was money that the State owed to the Royals and not the other way around.


The Duchies are in a different category as they have always been private estates.
Reply With Quote
  #1435  
Old 08-15-2020, 05:46 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
But then the whole story has to be told from the beginning. The civil list was not a privilege or a favor to the King, but compensation paid to the King for having transferred the Crown Estate (his formerly private wealth) to public ownership and surrendering its revenue to the Treasury. In a way, it was money that the State owed to the Royals and not the other way around.
Ah but didn't the monarch pay for some of the government? We could always reverse the agreement but I doubt the monarch would agree. Not now.

Besides the crown estate is not the "private" property of the monarch as an individual.
Reply With Quote
  #1436  
Old 08-15-2020, 05:55 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Ah but didn't the monarch pay for some of the government? We could always reverse the agreement but I doubt the monarch would agree. Not now.

Besides the crown estate is not the "private" property of the monarch as an individual.
When you look back at history and wealth, there was a time (and in a lot of places there still is) when even "old" money looked down their noses at "new" money. Generation after generation of people raking in the riches all of a sudden were confronted with the industrialist that overnight built a fortune and they just "weren't the same blood" as those having "old money".

Wealth does strange things to people. Everybody wants it and when they get it, they have to be the top of the heap. Wasn't a prime example of this Mohamed al Fayed and his many, many attempts to buy his way into British elite society?
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #1437  
Old 08-15-2020, 07:27 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When you look back at history and wealth, there was a time (and in a lot of places there still is) when even "old" money looked down their noses at "new" money. Generation after generation of people raking in the riches all of a sudden were confronted with the industrialist that overnight built a fortune and they just "weren't the same blood" as those having "old money".

Wealth does strange things to people. Everybody wants it and when they get it, they have to be the top of the heap. Wasn't a prime example of this Mohamed al Fayed and his many, many attempts to buy his way into British elite society?
Tha'ts not the point.. the point is that the King had his estates and was expected to "live off his own fortune" as the ruler... but as society became more complex and the King was not the actual ruler any more, things became more complicated.. and the Crown Estates which were meant to supply the King with his income to rule with, were turned over to the actual Government and he got back an allowance.. ie teh Civil List...
Some might say that in this case, since the money was for the King as ruler, any surplus should go to the Government.. I think a middle ground is possible.. that a certain proportion of savings should be passed on to the Govt.... but a proportion could be kept by the Monarch. It has nothing to do with "Old money and new money".
Reply With Quote
  #1438  
Old 08-15-2020, 07:53 PM
Eskimo's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dallas, United States
Posts: 409
It was much easier for them to build private wealth in those days. Multiple non-family inheritances, no taxes, pretty much every member of the extended family on some sort of parliamentary allowance etc. etc.

In this day and age, thereíd be uproar if they got non-family inheritances, they have to pay taxes and have to support extended family members from private funds. Thus, the saving are not as great as they used to be.
Reply With Quote
  #1439  
Old 08-15-2020, 08:53 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
It was much easier for them to build private wealth in those days. Multiple non-family inheritances, no taxes, pretty much every member of the extended family on some sort of parliamentary allowance etc. etc.

In this day and age, there’d be uproar if they got non-family inheritances, they have to pay taxes and have to support extended family members from private funds. Thus, the saving are not as great as they used to be.

Sound management still makes a difference though, Just look at how the Duchy of Cornwall has thrived under Charles for example. I am not so sure William will be able to keep up when it is his turn.


It is interesting that we were discussing education of royal princes in another forum and how princes in the continent study international relations, law or political science whereas William majored in Geography after starting out as an Art History major. But one thing that was not mentioned is that William also took a short extension course afterwards in Land Management (or something like that), which is very telling to me. It shows that, in addition to his state role, the Prince of Wales, as Duke of Cornwall, is not that different from other senior peers in the UK with big rural estates, with the only difference being that his estate as the Duke is one of the biggest of all !



That is rather unique to the UK nowadays, I think, because , other than in Sweden, where the RF also manages the Steanhammar and Solliden estates, we normally don't think of other European royals as landowners with rural estates.
Reply With Quote
  #1440  
Old 08-15-2020, 10:23 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 4,973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Sound management still makes a difference though, Just look at how the Duchy of Cornwall has thrived under Charles for example. I am not so sure William will be able to keep up when it is his turn.


It is interesting that we were discussing education of royal princes in another forum and how princes in the continent study international relations, law or political science whereas William majored in Geography after starting out as an Art History major. But one thing that was not mentioned is that William also took a short extension course afterwards in Land Management (or something like that), which is very telling to me. It shows that, in addition to his state role, the Prince of Wales, as Duke of Cornwall, is not that different from other senior peers in the UK with big rural estates, with the only difference being that his estate as the Duke is one of the biggest of all !

That is rather unique to the UK nowadays, I think, because , other than in Sweden, where the RF also manages the Steanhammar and Solliden estates, we normally don't think of other European royals as landowners with rural estates.
According to this BBC article at that time it was a 10-week Agricultural Management course specifically designed for the prince - which included 20 hours of classes a week (some one-on-one others with PhD students) and several field trips. But I agree this is very specific for the British heir and not that likely for the continental heirs.

In addition to Sweden, it might be relevant to know that the Dutch monarchy has 'Kroondomein Het Loo' - although it was handed over to the State in 1959 it contains the provision that the crown has 'right of use' meaning among other things that the profit (of 2/3rds of the area) goes to the royal family - another condition was that if the family would ever cease to reign over the Netherlands it is to be returned... So, while managed by the state, they do have a say in it (as is evidence by the yearly comments on 'why does the king close of the area for several months?!').
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, civil list, finances


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royals & Nobles and Wealth, Costs and Finances kcc Royal Life and Lifestyle 445 11-03-2019 05:42 PM
Costs and Finances of the Belgian Royal Family Marengo Royal Family of Belgium 118 07-16-2019 03:30 PM
Wealth and Finances of the Spanish Royal Family hrhcp Royal Family of Spain 156 04-06-2018 07:21 PM
Wealth of The German Royal/Princely Houses kcc Royal Families of Austria and Germany 12 12-30-2007 03:35 AM




Popular Tags
abdication anastasia 2020 biography bridal gown british brownbitcoinqueen canada chittagong cht clarence house coronavirus crown princess victoria danish royalty dna dubai dutch dutch royal family earl of snowdon emperor facts fantasy movie future general news thread george vi hill historical drama history house of glucksburg italian royal family jewellery jumma kent king salman languages list of rulers luxembourg mail mary: crown princess of denmark monaco history nepalese royal jewels northern ireland norway norwegian royal family palestine prince dimitri princess alexia (2005 -) princess laurentien princess of orange queen mathilde random facts royal court royal dress-ups royal jewels royal marriage royal re-enactments. royal wedding royal wedding gown saudi arabia settings stuart sweden thailand thai royal family tips tracts uae customs united kingdom united states of america von hofmannsthal working royals; full-time royals; part-time royals;


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:12 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×