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  #1361  
Old 06-26-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
To be fair, the Sovereign Grant is still an indirect form of public funding as, otherwise, 100 % of the Crown Estate surplus revenue would go to the Treasury and be spent elsewhere.
The point I made was that many people believe the BRF funding comes directly from the taxes they pay & the media compounds that misunderstanding by the way they report on BRF expenditure.
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  #1362  
Old 06-26-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
£15.2m was transferred to the Sovereign Grant reserve (2017-18 £28.7m) to fund future phases of the Reservicing of Buckingham Palace.

I thought, the Buckingham Palace is owned by the state and not by the royal family.

Then the state should pay for the palace like for Downing Street or the Parliament building, but not via the Sovereign Grant.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
To be fair, the Sovereign Grant is still an indirect form of public funding as, otherwise, 100 % of the Crown Estate surplus revenue would go to the Treasury and be spent elsewhere.
I thought, William the Conquerer owned (with his Barons) all of England. The Crown Estate is the tiny left over, of which the royal family gets just a fraction of the income.

In some ways the British Royal Family shares the fate so many royal families which were "revolutionized" from the throne, but in slow motion and without the violence.
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  #1363  
Old 06-26-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
I thought, the Buckingham Palace is owned by the state and not by the royal family.

Then the state should pay for the palace like for Downing Street or the Parliament building, but not via the Sovereign Grant.



No, Buckingham Palace is not owned by the State. It is held in trust by the monarch as part of the Occupied Royal Palaces Estate, which is also separate from the Crown Estate. The funds for maintaining the occupied palaces, as I understand it, now come directly from the Sovereign Grant.



In other countries, e.g. Spain, Sweden and the Netherlands, the royal palaces (other than those that are privately owned by the RF) are indeed owned by the State. In Spain, for example, the National Heritage agency mantains the palaces. In Sweden, there is a separate grant to the Royal Court (other than the King's apanage) which is earmarked for maintenance of the royal palaces. Either way, the money comes from general taxes.


The situation in Belgium is a little bit more complicated. The Royal Palace of Brussels, which is not used as a residence, but only as a working palace, is owned by the State, but most of the royal residences (perhaps even the Chateau de Laeken itself ?) belong to the Royal Donation Trust, and not to the State directly.
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  #1364  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
No, Buckingham Palace is not owned by the State. It is held in trust by the monarch as part of the Occupied Royal Palaces Estate, which is also separate from the Crown Estate. The funds for maintaining the occupied palaces, as I understand it, now come directly from the Sovereign Grant.
So, it is complicated. Thank you for the explanation!
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  #1365  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Brand Finance estimated in 2017 that the monarchy’s annual contribution to the UK economy to be around £1.8bn a year, drawing in an additional £550m of tourism revenues a year, and an increase in trade, from the Royal Family acting as ambassadors, supposedly worth £150m a year.
That is an estimation really build on nothing. As if tourism to London or the size of the British economy plummets when there is no Elizabeth or Charles anymore. Republics like France, Germany, Italy see their cities so overflooded that they have to come with strategies to dam the tide. I am sure there will be barely any tourist who would not visit London because there is no monarch anymore. Come on.

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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The key financial details reported today are:

The total Sovereign Grant for 2018-19, including the dedicated amount for Reservicing, amounted to £82.2m (2017-18 £76.1m), equivalent to £1.24 per person in the UK.

The £82.2m Grant is made up of a Core Grant of £49.3m and an additional dedicated amount for Reservicing of £32.9m.

Additional income generated from facilities management charges and property rental increased to £17.8m (2017-18 £17.3m), up 3%.

The official expenditure in the year met by the Sovereign Grant was £67million, up 41% (2017-18 £47.4m), primarily due to higher levels of spending on property, including £14.1m on Reservicing and £25.1m on maintenance from the Core Grant.

£15.2m was transferred to the Sovereign Grant reserve (2017-18 £28.7m) to fund future phases of the Reservicing of Buckingham Palace.

Other key data for 2018-19:

Over 3,200 official engagements across the UK and overseas undertaken by members of the Royal Family.

Over 160,000 guests welcomed at Royal Palaces at events such as garden parties and investitures.

Over 7.9m people saw items from the Royal Collection Trust in Royal Palaces.


Read more: Financial Reports 2018-19
That still makes the British monarchy cheaper than their Dutch colleagues, but the statistics are difficult to compare. The Dutch calculate the costs of the deployment of military and civil services, the use of infrastructure, even the use of the State Information Agency and every hiccup to come to a complete overview of "what does the monarchy really cost?" (appr. 100 million Euro in the Netherlands without the huge costs for protection). The costs of police protection are not included because it would be unfair: every Dutchman, royal or not, who needs police protection receives this. This has nothing to do with monarchy.

Only when we make statistics based on equal calculation terms, we can make a good comparison between the monarchies. My assessment is that the British monarchy delivers value for theur money while in my country it remains a bit blurry why it has such a prize tag for an - in comparison- more down to earth monarchy.
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  #1366  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:44 PM
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Well, here's the bottom line. What is the alternative? Because the country does need a head of state. And certainly BRF is attractive and well known around the world. They act as ambassadors on top of The Queen being head of the state.

Presidents and First Families don't come cheap either.
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  #1367  
Old 06-26-2019, 04:23 PM
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Our queen is still working at 93, her husband retired in his nineties.
Her son is still working in his seventies.

They have my vote.
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  #1368  
Old 06-26-2019, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
To be fair, the Sovereign Grant is still an indirect form of public funding as, otherwise, 100 % of the Crown Estate surplus revenue would go to the Treasury and be spent elsewhere.

Having said that, the British Royal Family is still the only RF n Europe AFAIK that is not funded by general taxes ( the most precise definition of “ taxpayer money”). That puts the British royals in a more comfiortable position compared to their continental cousins as far as criticism of their expenses is concerned.
Another alternative for the income of the Crown Estates is for that income to stay with the monarch. Each monarch, since George III, has voluntarily handed it over to the state with some coming back for their official duties. There is no guarantee that future monarchs will do so. They could keep the lot (I don't see if happening but it could).

Effectively the monarch is giving the state the 85% of the Crown Estate not the other way round.
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  #1369  
Old 06-26-2019, 05:38 PM
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I wonder how the British public would react if that were to happen - a future monarch, maybe Charles or William, keeping hold of the income from the Crown Estates.
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  #1370  
Old 06-26-2019, 05:42 PM
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I now wish the Queen would do it just once. The squaking would be hilarious. But maybe some people would actually learn how things work, although doubtful.
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  #1371  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:22 PM
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a future monarch, maybe Charles or William, keeping hold of the income from the Crown Estates.
This will never happen, each and every Monarch since the reign of George III has followed this model, negotiating the continuance of this 'deal', at the start of their reign..
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  #1372  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Larisa View Post
I now wish the Queen would do it just once. The squaking would be hilarious. But maybe some people would actually learn how things work, although doubtful.
They only get one chance to keep everything from the Crown Estate - at the very beginning of their reign. The Queen has had her chance.
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  #1373  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Another alternative for the income of the Crown Estates is for that income to stay with the monarch. Each monarch, since George III, has voluntarily handed it over to the state with some coming back for their official duties. There is no guarantee that future monarchs will do so. They could keep the lot (I don't see if happening but it could).

Effectively the monarch is giving the state the 85% of the Crown Estate not the other way round.



The "deal" was actually more complicated than you describe it.



Since the Glorious Revolution, when Parliament took control of the revenue from general taxes, the monarch had been relieved of paying for the military or paying the national debt, but, up to the 18th century, the monarch was still personally responsible for paying for the costs of both the civil government and the royal household, which he had to meet basically with the revenue from the Crown lands plus a few taxes that Parliament made available to him.



Over time, the King incurred in severe personal debt as the revenue from the Crown lands became insufficient to meet the government's expenses. That is why King George III agreed to surrender the income of the Crown Estate to the Treasury in exchange for being relieved of responsibility for the cost of the civil government and associated debts, as well as receiving a civil list voted by Parliament to fund the Royal Household.


So it wasn't really a gesture of magnanimity or kindness on the part of the sovereign, but a way out of his financial problems. Of course, nowadays, the Crown Estate revenue is just a drop of water in the sea of revenue from general taxes and other sources available to the Treasury, but, still, we cannot lose the historic perspective.
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  #1374  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:27 PM
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I am aware of all that. I was putting forward the simple line which still holds true - the monarch surrenders all of the income of the Crown Estate at the beginning of their reign to the government and the government gives them back some for their official duties.

The history behind it is even more complicated than you have described it and there was much tooing and froing about how to make it work.
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  #1375  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:23 AM
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I saw in a documentary one time, they said The Monarch owns the Palace of Westminster - By Right of The Crown. I have trouble trying to work out the meaning by right of the crown here.
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  #1376  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tarlita View Post
I saw in a documentary one time, they said The Monarch owns the Palace of Westminster - By Right of The Crown. I have trouble trying to work out the meaning by right of the crown here.
"The Palace of Westminster is therefore Crown land because it is land in which there is a Crown interest, in this case an interest belonging to Her Majesty in right of the Crown."

Please refer to 17 May 2006 : Column 339

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...t/60517-22.htm
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  #1377  
Old 06-27-2019, 03:16 AM
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Thank you for that Royal fly. I felt by right of the crown could have several different meanings.
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  #1378  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
No, Buckingham Palace is not owned by the State. It is held in trust by the monarch as part of the Occupied Royal Palaces Estate, which is also separate from the Crown Estate. The funds for maintaining the occupied palaces, as I understand it, now come directly from the Sovereign Grant.


The question is who is the owner of the occupied Royal Palaces Estate? s that not the State. Or who is it?
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  #1379  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
The question is who is the owner of the occupied Royal Palaces Estate? s that not the State. Or who is it?


I don’t believe there is single “owner”, it’s cared for and maintained by Royal Household Property Section. So at a push, Lord Steward but unlikely,
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  #1380  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
The question is who is the owner of the occupied Royal Palaces Estate? s that not the State. Or who is it?

The Occupied Royal Palaces are held in trust by the Crown Estate for future generations.

List of Occupied Royal Palaces

Buckingham Palace
St James’s Palace, Clarence House and Marlborough House Mews
The residential and office areas of Kensington Palace
The Royal Mews and Royal Paddocks at Hampton Court, and
Windsor Castle and buildings in the Home and Great Parks at Windsor.

"The Crown Estate belongs to the reigning monarch 'in right of The Crown', that is, it is owned by the monarch for the duration of their reign, by virtue of their accession to the throne. But it is not the private property of the monarch - it cannot be sold by the monarch, nor do revenues from it belong to the monarch.

The Government also does not own The Crown Estate. It is managed by an independent organisation - established by statute - headed by a Board (also known as The Crown Estate Commissioners), and the surplus revenue from the estate is paid each year to the Treasury for the benefit of the nation's finances."


https://webarchive.nationalarchives...._grant_faq.htm

https://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/en-...thecrownestate

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...950116_CWA_187
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