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  #681  
Old 02-28-2020, 02:41 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
What has happened to Scotland Yard, to MI5, to MI6 and the legendaric James Bond with his "Licence to kill"? The United Kingdom has such an unbelievable machinery of security. They should not even have 0,001 second of thought to protect citizens which score within the parameters of risk assessment. I also think the amount named here and there is sucked out of a big fat thumb. Exactly because it is a secretive policy, the security services will not reveal precize amounts distributed to individual royals.

The armoured Audi which shadows the Earl of Wessex today, probably shadows the Duke of Sussex tomorrow and the Prince of Wales coming week. Maybe the armoured Audi came with a staggering price label but it is in use for three or four years. What I have seen is allocating security, cars, helicopters whatever to individual royals. But they also protect foreign guests, they also protect the Prime Minister, they also protect Mme Brigitte Macron doing some shopping in London. With or without a royal family, any developed country has such a security force.

In the Netherlands the Prime Minister always refuses to say what the security costs are for the royals because the Corps Royal- and Diplomatic Service would have been there anyway, with or without a monarchy. They protect Justices of the International Tribunal, they protect foreign ambassadors, they protect politicians, mayors, prosecutors, citizens under threat.

I think that reply is pure. I see millions swarming over the net about the costs but the central comnand, the fleet of armoured vehicles, the shadowing by personal guards, the helicopter above, it would have been there anyway, with or without a Harry.
That is all very true, but the Sussex's intend to live in North America, so all the trappings of security would need to go with them.

The rota of RPO's would be huge, with the individuals flying back and forth across the Atlantic , staying at expensive hotels, on some sort of bonus as they are aware from home and basically on 24 hour call. If the family decide to travel, the security would travel with them. all incurring further costs.
Your point is basically correct and when they are in the UK as you say everything is already in place. The various estates are all protected with security. The point is they will not be in the UK, I do not know the answer but it is not as simple as everything is already there so what is the problem,
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  #682  
Old 02-28-2020, 02:43 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalriada View Post
“ ....As Nr. 6 in the succession list, Harry is the 7th most important person in the Uk when it comes to official precedence - he is far higher in official rank than any ambassadour or even the Prime Minister ever can be. That's how it is in the Uk and nothing is going to change that apart from a public vote for the end of the monarchy.

Looking ahead Harry is still the grandson of the Head of State of the realm of Canada but he is still deemed a private individual by the Canadian government who sees him not worthy of this realm’s special security.[/QUOTE]

He does not want the trappings though, he wants to leave his responsibilities as 6th in line.
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  #683  
Old 02-28-2020, 02:45 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I doubt very much if Joe Bloggs calls the police and says that he is in danger or subject to threats, is going to get ful time police protection.. much less special officers.
You are lucky if you get a visit.
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  #684  
Old 02-28-2020, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Perhaps you underestimate the resentment his actions have prompted amongst a Public that [once] adored him ?
lt seems to me that much of that same public now seeks to punish this couple for their [perceived] 'betrayal', and attempting to deny them security, paid for 'from the Public purse', is one of their sole remaining weapons in the quest for revenge ?

The Press [naturally] are 'stoking this fire'.

But who are these people??? Where do they form a forum for their opinion? How many do even show enough interest to change their opinion? Harry is a prince of the Uk. He is Diana's and Charles' son. That alone means most people see him as something "special". Now he has his "scandal". A lot of people understand that he seeks to protect his wife and son and is still happy to be his grandmother's subject. Others were raised up against him by the media's reports. But how many are in one group, how many in the other? I think it's legitimate to have your own opinion about all of this. But to say "The taxpayer" is quite a lot! Especially as no one normally listens to "The taxpayer", when they don't even listen to "The voter". That "Taxpayers" are IMHO just a metaphor in use when the media wants to whip the Royals or the government for something the media hates. NBot for the people hates, but for their own jobs/situation. Harry does not want to play the game anymore and I understand that the media hates it. But do the people really think about that and form an opinion that is so way off what they normally think? I am not convinced about that.
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  #685  
Old 02-28-2020, 03:57 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
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delete - still no delete button
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  #686  
Old 02-28-2020, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalriada View Post
“ ....As Nr. 6 in the succession list, Harry is the 7th most important person in the Uk when it comes to official precedence - he is far higher in official rank than any ambassadour or even the Prime Minister ever can be. That's how it is in the Uk and nothing is going to change that apart from a public vote for the end of the monarchy.

Looking ahead Harry is still the grandson of the Head of State of the realm of Canada but he is still deemed a private individual by the Canadian government who sees him not worthy of this realm’s special security.[/QUOTE]
Even though he is the grandson of the queen, he is not a Canadian. He is a guest in Canada and not on an official mission there. If people normally surrounded by security go abroard on holiday, they won't get security of the country they are in besides the exchange of information and occasionally help from them wehn it comes to cars etc.
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  #687  
Old 02-28-2020, 04:34 PM
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As I see it, this isn't about to trying to punish anyone, or hating anyone, or "revenge". It's about the fact that it's difficult to justify spending millions of pounds on security for people who are performing no public service, when there've had to be cuts to the numbers of police on the streets trying to protect 65 million people from being mugged, burgled or worse. It's only a media estimate and probably way out, but the reports are that the costs of security for them in Canada would be £14 million more than if they were in the UK, because of the travel costs and the fact that official vehicles wouldn't be there anyway. That's a lot of money that could otherwise be spent on general policing.


Nobody wanted "revenge" against Beatrice and Eugenie, whose state-funded security was withdrawn. It was just a question of justifying the expenditure. Police resources are stretched.
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  #688  
Old 02-28-2020, 04:59 PM
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Royal Security

[QUOTE=Alison H;
Nobody wanted "revenge" against Beatrice and Eugenie, whose state-funded security was withdrawn. It was just a question of justifying the expenditure. Police resources are stretched.[/QUOTE]


Most taxpayers wanted justification rather than revenge for paying ££millions of security costs to follow these two Yorgies (B&E) on multiple holidays every year around the world without them having any employment never mind full employment at the time. Revulsion rather than hatred.
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  #689  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:12 PM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
As I see it, this isn't about to trying to punish anyone, or hating anyone, or "revenge". It's about the fact that it's difficult to justify spending millions of pounds on security for people who are performing no public service, when there've had to be cuts to the numbers of police on the streets trying to protect 65 million people from being mugged, burgled or worse. It's only a media estimate and probably way out, but the reports are that the costs of security for them in Canada would be £14 million more than if they were in the UK, because of the travel costs and the fact that official vehicles wouldn't be there anyway. That's a lot of money that could otherwise be spent on general policing.


Nobody wanted "revenge" against Beatrice and Eugenie, whose state-funded security was withdrawn. It was just a question of justifying the expenditure. Police resources are stretched.
well yes, its not high end maths, 1) the costs of security will be much heavier abroad and 2) Harry and Meghan have chosen to give up being working royals.. so - they may continue to get security paid for, by the tax payer for a time.. but it wont continue all that long and it will rouse resentment...
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  #690  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:35 PM
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It perhaps also worth pointing out the argument my be different if they were moving to Canada to lead normal lives away from the spotlight with 9-5 jobs and generally shun any attention and focus. The fact they have stated repeatedly a desire to "make their own way" and "earn their own income" is what makes some of these arguments about who funds the security relevant. E.g. if they are earning six figure sums to speak to bankers why should the British taxpayers be picking up the bill for their protection? Why can't they pay for it themselves or ask the people willing to pay so much to pay for flights for the protection officers etc. Furthermore is seems (and maybe we will be shown to be wrong) they are quite happy to still garner media attention by the nature of the work they are wanting to do, therefore its in their interest to keep a high profile to earn the $£$£$£ (whether that goes to themselves or charity) so that means there will be more diminishing of the interest in them in the same way there may be with other royals who "leave the stage".

Ultimately if its assessed that there is a real threat (as I'm sure there will be for the next few months or year or two at least) I'm all for them having protection but it would be nice to think if they do start earning big bucks they could see some of it go towards repaying a portion of the bill e.g. the costs of protection when they are on doing any paid events. That said I hope they don't get protection just because they are 'celebrities' who garner media interest without any real actual harmful threat (if that makes sense I'm not wishing them ill personally I hope there is no threat), if thats the case they should hire their own minders.

“ ....As Nr. 6 in the succession list, Harry is the 7th most important person in the Uk when it comes to official precedence - he is far higher in official rank than any ambassadour or even the Prime Minister ever can be. That's how it is in the Uk and nothing is going to change that apart from a public vote for the end of the monarchy.[/QUOTE]

The order of succession and the order of precedence are different. By official and legal precedence Andrew and Edward rank higher than William and Harry even though William and Harry are higher in the line of succession. If we base security on place in precedence the Archbishop of Canterbury (first in precedence after the Royal Family) would be deemed more at risk than the Prime Minister and the Lord Chancellor (also usually held with the office of Secretary of State for Justice) would rank higher than the Prime Minister (who appoints them and could fire them at whim). That is why the provision and level of protection is based on an assessment of the risks not just holding a title or status or place in precedence.
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  #691  
Old 02-28-2020, 06:04 PM
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When the Sussexes released their first statement early they made a lot of assumptions that proved incorrect. I'm sure they thought it all so simple, no problem. It would be interesting to know their thoughts now, or would it be. Sad.
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  #692  
Old 02-28-2020, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stunking View Post
When the Sussexes released their first statement early they made a lot of assumptions that proved incorrect. I'm sure they thought it all so simple, no problem. It would be interesting to know their thoughts now, or would it be. Sad.
I don't think that that their thoughts are any different now. I think they made up their minds they wanted to leave,,, and publicised it.. and when they were told they coudnt be half and half royals, they just left for Canada. Now, there has probalby been behind the scenes discussions for the past month or so and they have been told again that if they want to leave theire will be certain consequences but they don't really accept that.
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  #693  
Old 02-28-2020, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
As I see it, this isn't about to trying to punish anyone, or hating anyone, or "revenge". It's about the fact that it's difficult to justify spending millions of pounds on security for people who are performing no public service, when there've had to be cuts to the numbers of police on the streets trying to protect 65 million people from being mugged, burgled or worse. It's only a media estimate and probably way out, but the reports are that the costs of security for them in Canada would be £14 million more than if they were in the UK, because of the travel costs and the fact that official vehicles wouldn't be there anyway. That's a lot of money that could otherwise be spent on general policing.
I agree with you.
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  #694  
Old 02-28-2020, 08:06 PM
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I’m glad the Canadian government drew a line in the sand re: the security costs. More generally I think this could be a thorny issue going forward.

Part of the problem is that I suspect Harry and Meghan don’t want low key lives. They don’t want to settle in BC and come back to the UK two or three times a year for visits. They want a base in Vancouver or Toronto, they want to fly to NY every so often to appear at high profile events, they want to fly to Florida or the Caribbean to be the entertainment for a bunch of bankers, they want to spend part of their summers in LA and then part in Spain, and then of course they’ll have to fit in some time for the UK. They want to live the carefree, nomadic life of some of their very rich friends.

The problem is, as Elton John or the like could easily tell them, security costs for that kind of lifestyle are enormous. Especially for people who are no longer living in places covered by the existing security infrastructure of the BRF. I think how much of these new expenses the British public should have to cover is a legitimate question.
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  #695  
Old 02-29-2020, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
I’m glad the Canadian government drew a line in the sand re: the security costs. More generally I think this could be a thorny issue going forward.

Part of the problem is that I suspect Harry and Meghan don’t want low key lives. They don’t want to settle in BC and come back to the UK two or three times a year for visits. They want a base in Vancouver or Toronto, they want to fly to NY every so often to appear at high profile events, they want to fly to Florida or the Caribbean to be the entertainment for a bunch of bankers, they want to spend part of their summers in LA and then part in Spain, and then of course they’ll have to fit in some time for the UK. They want to live the carefree, nomadic life of some of their very rich friends.

T.
We shall see when they get settled. Its true (as some have said) that they have been relatively quiet in one way in the past 2 months.. mostly presumably living in their house in Canada..but even then tehre has been the trip to the Morgan foundation thing.. Harry has now come back to the UK..
If they are going to do speaking engagements or some kind of business stuff, there will be travel for that, and they'll probably come to the UK for a bit of charity work and to meet the RF...so it will all add up...
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  #696  
Old 02-29-2020, 05:49 AM
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After April 1st and the cut off date of being "senior working royals", it'll be the most opportune time for them to launch whatever "entity" they have in mind for going into their new, private life and the work they do. Most likely more information will then be available as to what they're doing and where they're going as they'll have their own PR staff or calendar of upcoming events.

Even in this respect, I would imagine that some details will be kept to a minimum and appear sketchy due to security risks. Its a watch and see situation all the way around.
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  #697  
Old 02-29-2020, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Yes - so it's hard to argue that there should be an exception for Harry and Meghan, when there isn't for Beatrice and Eugenie, and police resources are stretched as it is. It'll probably end up being like the "Who pays for the repairs to Windsor Castle after the fire?" saga - if there's a public outcry, public funding will be withdrawn. If there isn't, who knows?
My personal assessment says that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have a far higher score on the risk ladder than the two York ladies. Any lone wolf, lunatic, stalker, terrorist or paperazzo will be more glued to the Sussexes than to Princess Eugenie, Mrs James Brooksbank and the soon to be Princess Beatrice, Mrs Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi, who both already are moving towards the periphery of public attention.
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  #698  
Old 02-29-2020, 07:08 AM
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...hats-rich.html


As others have pointed out, Harry is a private citizen in Canada. No public service, no public money for security.

They wanted to be financially independent, so include the money for hiring bodyguards.

Seriously, this is a no brainer, at least for public opinion. Trudeau understood quickly, if Britain doesnt and pay for security in Canada, there will be an enormous backslash. The BRF will not be able to afford to hand over the bill to the british taxpayer to look after 2 celebrities traveling the world in search of big money jobs.
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  #699  
Old 02-29-2020, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...hats-rich.html


As others have pointed out, Harry is a private citizen in Canada. No public service, no public money for security.

They wanted to be financially independent, so include the money for hiring bodyguards.

Seriously, this is a no brainer, at least for public opinion. Trudeau understood quickly, if Britain doesnt and pay for security in Canada, there will be an enormous backslash. The BRF will not be able to afford to hand over the bill to the british taxpayer to look after 2 celebrities traveling the world in search of big money jobs.
What will Trudeau's response be when a lone wolf, a lunatic, a terrorist or anything manages to threat, harrass or actually injure the Duke, the Duchess or their child indeed? Or will he do the Pontius Pilatus act and wash his hands in forged innocence?
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  #700  
Old 02-29-2020, 07:25 AM
Majesty
 
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
What will Trudeau's response be when a lone wolf, a lunatic, a terrorist or anything manages to threat, harrass or actually injure the Duke, the Duchess or their child indeed? Or will he do the Pontius Pilatus act and wash his hands in forged innocence?
He has stated that the Canadian govt can't continue to do Harry's security. Then it is up to Harry, who is a grown man of 35 or 6 to arrange his own security....
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