Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Somebody]

People magazine was given a response from the spokesperson of the Prince of Wales.

A spokesperson for Charles tells PEOPLE, "All stories of this nature are speculation and no final decisions have been taken. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful to the Queen to comment on matters of accession and we will be maintaining our long-standing policy of not doing so."

https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title/​

It is interesting that the Prince's spokesperson states "no final decisions have been taken", as most members of the public (including myself) have interpreted the announcement of June 1999 as a final decision.

It is hard to understand the remark that it would be "inappropriate and disrespectful" to comment on the future of the dukedom, given that the announcement in 1999 did precisely that. Did the Prince of Wales agree to the 1999 announcement despite his belief that it was "inappropriate and disrespectful", or was his "long-standing policy" introduced after 1999?

Richard Kay, a columnist in the Daily Mail, believes that the Prince of Wales was "irritated" by the Earl and Countess of Wessex giving "high-profile interviews" and being described as "indispensable" and, he believes, leaked the dukedom story as a "warning shot" to the Wessexes. Mr. Kay bases his opinion on comments from unnamed sources, who he says are close to the Prince of Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...ons-Charles-denied-fathers-wishes-Edward.html

I fully agree; it was agreed, so the decision was made. Why start backtracking now?

If true, it seems the prince is jealous... and that doesn't suit him. He is the one who couldn't keep his son in check and now might take out his 'anger' at his (imho) innocent younger brother.

If he is going back on his intention not to make his wife the princess royal (in which case something not beneficial for him is turned around into something beneficial - which I would be fine with although it would be a rather empty 'intention' that shouldn't have made; using Duchess of Cornwall instead of Princess of Wales was sufficient imho) as well as on the agreement made with his parents on the title for his brother (a decision that would turn something beneficial for his brother into something unbeneficial for his brother), my respect for him would drop significantly.

Leaking this as a way to keep his brother and sister-in-law on their edges in itself is already a strategy I disapprove of. That doesn't show statesmanship but small-mindedness and huge insecurities.

 

[Somebody]

No reason was given in the announcement. It declared the agreement that Prince Edward would become the Duke of Edinburgh in due course, but it did not connect that agreement to the conferral of an Earldom rather than a Dukedom upon marriage. In fact, the wording "also agreed" may imply, in my opinion, that the two decisions were unrelated.

There was no explanation given for why the Prince did not receive a (different) dukedom at his wedding.

Title of HRH The Prince Edward

The Queen has today been pleased to confer an Earldom on The Prince Edward. His titles will be Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. The Prince Edward thus becomes His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex and Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones on marriage will become Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex.

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen has also decided, with the agreement of The Prince Edward and Miss Rhys-Jones, that any children they might have should not be given the style His or Her Royal Highness, but would have courtesy titles as sons or daughters of an Earl.​

In my opinion it means the exact opposite. All princes so far received a Dukedom, so that was what normally would have happened. However, the Duke of Edinburgh -who was too late to ask Andrew to become the future duke of Edinburgh as was his original intention, as apparently the decision had already been made to make him Duke of York - asked Edward whether he would consider becoming the next Duke of Edinburgh. Edward (and Sophie) agreed to that. That left the question what to do until that moment: the solution was to give him an earldom and a viscountcy (titles that are normally the subsidiary titles).

The alternative of giving him another dukedom at first seems moot, as if two dukedoms would have been considered acceptable the dukedom of Edinburgh would have been intended for Andrew instead of Edward based on Edward's own words.

However, the gossip press reported that the Prince requested to be created Earl of Wessex, as he liked the title, instead of the planned dukedom of Cambridge.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...am-asks-the-Queen-not-to-make-him-a-duke.html

Gossip press tells it all. The prince was to be earl for quite some time and probably requested for it to be Wessex.

The part that makes me believe that the queen might be worried that Charles will not follow through on the agreement is her awarding Edward a Scottish earldom. She might be worried that he would never receive a Scottish title otherwise. Giving him a dukedom would be a very clear sign of disconcert in the family as that would most certainly mean that Charles is not making him Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[Somebody]

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The key word here is "should". There is a degree of allowed uncertainty in using this word rather than "would". Basically, that it is subject to change. So there was never a guarantee, just that they made their wishes known of the agreement. Charles is not bound by this agreement, but I do hope he follows through on it.

The minimal uncertainty could be that if Charles passes away before the queen, it is up to William to uphold this agreement. Charles was mentioned explicitly in this statement, so he was part of the agreement. This was clearly done to show that it was not just a 'wish' but that all parties, including the one who is expected to be the one to execute it, were in agreement that this is how the issue will be dealt with.

 

[sophie25]

This is incredibly petty and dishonerable behaviour by the P of W IMO. I could absolutely believe he is jealous of the good press the Wessex's are getting whilst he still struggles to improve his own popularity and that of his wife. Philip wanted Edward he have his title, there is no doubt about that, and if Charles renages on that agreement it will show him in a very poor light indeed.

 

[Mbruno]

I fully agree; it was agreed, so the decision was made. Why start backtracking now?

If true, it seems the prince is jealous... and that doesn't suit him. He is the one who couldn't keep his son in check and now might take out his 'anger' at his (imho) innocent younger brother.

I must say that looks very bad on Charles. Yes, he comes across as being jealous, which makes no sense for a future king, and also mean.

 

[ladongas]

He also comes across -again- as a man who doesn’t keep his word.

 

[Prinsara]

There's also been a story in Vanity Fair and people like Victoria and Dickie Arbiter saying all of this is nonsense.

It seems petty and meanspirited and out of character for Charles because it's so illogical as to probably not be true.

 

[Erin9]

There's also been a story in Vanity Fair and people like Victoria and Dickie Arbiter saying all of this is nonsense.

It seems petty and meanspirited and out of character for Charles because it's so illogical as to probably not be true.

I hope so. It does sound petty and nasty. I really can’t think of anything more foolish for Charles to do at the start of his reign than pointedly and publicly disrespecting his parents wishes.

I hope it is all nonsense. Because this strikes me as beyond foolish to even consider, short of some specific issue with a Scottish Dukedom in the future. Or Edward pulling an Andrew- which I rather doubt.

 

[Mbruno]

The minimal uncertainty could be that if Charles passes away before the queen, it is up to William to uphold this agreement. Charles was mentioned explicitly in this statement, so he was part of the agreement. This was clearly done to show that it was not just a 'wish' but that all parties, including the one who is expected to be the one to execute it, were in agreement that this is how the issue will be dealt with.

More significantly, it appears that it was the Queen's and Prince Philip's wish that Prince Edward be created Duke of Edinburgh after the title merges with the Crown. How will it look if Charles, upon ascending the throne, reneges on a promise made to his late parents?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

There's also been a story in Vanity Fair and people like Victoria and Dickie Arbiter saying all of this is nonsense.

I hope Ms. and Mr. Arbiter are correct. Are their opinions based on sources at Clarence House? However, the above statement from the Prince of Wales's spokesperson that "no final decisions have been taken" would seem to imply that the Prince of Wales does not consider himself to be bound by the 1999 agreement. Of course, that does not necessarily imply he will not abide by it.

 

[ACO]

Well people talk about how Charles wants a slimmed down monarch and is being cautious of titles. If he doesn't even want his grandkids to have titles then why is anyone surprised he might not want the DoE title to be passed on generation after generations via Edward's line? Nothing seemed to be written in stone and provided Charles an out.

This was clearly leaked for a reason. Seems like they testing the reaction. I mean one can really argue you can't be for a slimmed down monarchy and then being upset when Charles starts actually doing it. It it is just unfortunate timing for Edward and I am sure it is slightly embarrassing, especially as he was recently talking about it.

But who knows what the future holds.

 

[Erin9]

Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

Well people talk about how Charles wants a slimmed down monarch and is being cautious of titles. If he doesn't even want his grandkids to have titles then why is anyone surprised he might not want the DoE title to be passed on generation after generations via Edward's line? Nothing seemed to be written in stone and provided Charles an out.

This was clearly leaked for a reason. Seems like they testing the reaction. I mean one can really argue you can't be for a slimmed down monarchy and then being upset when Charles starts actually doing it. It it is just unfortunate timing for Edward and I am sure it is slightly embarrassing, especially as he was recently talking about it.

But who knows what the future holds.

I don’t see what a slimmed down monarchy has to do with granting his brother an additional title. He’s already HRH, an Earl, and a working member of the family. A title is already getting passed down. It’s whether it’s limited to an Earldom or includes a Dukedom.

Why wouldn’t he want DofE passed down? It’s not like HRH or being a working member of the family comes with it. It’s something his father wanted passed down. Through Edward. That’s it.

I don’t think it’s embarrassing for Edward. He never said it was set in stone either. He told the story about his father’s wish- which was already known anyway. He just elaborated on it.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I take your point, ACO. However the earldom of Wessex will be handed down for generation after generation and that is also (while Edward lives) a royal peerage.

I agree that this has all the appearance of a fishing expedition to test the waters. However, what people are genuinely perturbed about is not the slimming down of the Monarchy but that the Dukedom of Edinburgh to go to Edward ‘in due time’, was announced as an agreement between Charles and his parents in 1999 and it now appears that Charles is reluctant to stick to that agreement in the future.


And the reasons for this (AFAWK) appear to be either petty jealousy of Edward and Sophie’s new image in the Press or that he wants to keep the Edinburgh title for himself, perhaps to distribute in the future to a grandson. None of this casts Charles in a very creditable light IMO.

 

[ACO]

I don’t see what a slimmed down monarchy has to do with granting his brother a title. He’s already HRH, an Earl, and a working member of the family. A title is already getting passed down. It’s whether it’s limited to an Earldom or includes a Dukedom.

Why wouldn’t he want DofE passed down? It’s not like HRH or being a working member of the family comes with it. It’s something his father wanted passed down. Through Edward. That’s it.

I don’t think it’s embarrassing for Edward. He never said it was set in stone either. He told the story about his father’s wish- which was already known anyway. He just elaborated on it.

I don’t disagree but was more presenting what I heard discussed on Royal Confidential. Charles might want to have some control. Edward already has a title. He might feel it’s enough. The DoE title can stay in his line. Maybe that’s what he wants considering it now belongs to him.

 

[Erin9]

Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

I don’t disagree but was more presenting what I heard discussed on Royal Confidential. Charles might want to have some control. Edward already has a title. He might feel it’s enough. The DoE title can stay in his line. Maybe that’s what he wants considering it now belongs to him.

Gotcha. But I don’t know why (if true) he thinks blatantly disrespecting his parents wishes is a good idea. This seems like such an obviously bad PR move. I don’t know why waters would even need to be tested on this issue. It would be a very very public showing of utter disregard and disrespect for his parents known wishes. And really something of a slap in the face to Edward imo.

Yes- Charles can do what he likes when he becomes king. Just because he can doesn’t mean he should though. This is not an issue I’d think it wise to be controlling on.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Well people talk about how Charles wants a slimmed down monarch and is being cautious of titles. If he doesn't even want his grandkids to have titles then why is anyone surprised he might not want the DoE title to be passed on generation after generations via Edward's line?

There has not been any talk of Prince Charles not wanting his grandchildren to have ducal titles. The rumors of "slimming down" titles have been limited to royal titles, i.e. HRH and Prince/Princess. There have been no suggestions that King Charles would want to interfere with the Duke of Sussex title being passed on to his grandson, and subsequently for generation after generation.

 

[Osipi]

I really believe that all this is just a tempest in a teapot. "No final decisions have been made" could reflect that, of course, Charles has his ideas and thoughts about what he wants his reign to be like and what he wants to implement but now is not the time for any kind of final decisions on matters. His mother is still very much alive and it *is* disrespectful to have everyone in an uproar about a reign that hasn't even happened yet. It, to me, almost sounds like Charles is plotting for his mother's death which we *know* he is not doing. Of course plans and ideas probably have been floated around for years just by looking at the "slimmed down" monarchy rumor.

I also don't see Charles being such a petty person that he thinks Edward and Sophie are getting too much press and attention either. Charles is a very astute man and is intelligent enough to realize that once he's King, he's going to *need* Edward and Sophie. Edward is the youngest child of the Queen and the DoE and with Andrew gone from public service and Anne getting up in age just like Charles is, he *is* going to need the support of his youngest brother and his wife.

My prediction is that Charles will happily create Edward The Duke of Edinburgh according to his parent's wishes. I see absolutely no truth in the "reports" saying otherwise.

 

[Mirabel]

I don’t disagree but was more presenting what I heard discussed on Royal Confidential. Charles might want to have some control. Edward already has a title. He might feel it’s enough. The DoE title can stay in his line. Maybe that’s what he wants considering it now belongs to him.

That might be the case.
I read somewhere that Charles would prefer to have that particular title (Duke of Edinburgh) reserved for his own grandson Louis.

(Don't know how accurate that is, but it wouldn't surprise me).

 

[ACO]

I really believe that all this is just a tempest in a teapot. "No final decisions have been made" could reflect that, of course, Charles has his ideas and thoughts about what he wants his reign to be like and what he wants to implement but now is not the time for any kind of final decisions on matters. His mother is still very much alive and it *is* disrespectful to have everyone in an uproar about a reign that hasn't even happened yet. It, to me, almost sounds like Charles is plotting for his mother's death which we *know* he is not doing. Of course plans and ideas probably have been floated around for years just by looking at the "slimmed down" monarchy rumor.

You very well could be right. The Clarence House source released a similar statement about the articles revolving around Archie and Lili's future titles as well. HMQ is still alive and it is inappropriate to have such conversations right now. So I don't blame Charles whatsoever for not touching the topics now.

But we can't assume anything. There is a reason these articles have been leaked out.

 

[Erin9]

That might be the case.

I read somewhere that Charles would prefer to have that particular title (Duke of Edinburgh) reserved for his own grandson Louis.



(Don't know how accurate that is, but it wouldn't surprise me).

I can understand that desire (if it is one) for Louis. It would be lovely- under different circumstances.

But it wasn’t Philip’s wish. He clearly wanted his title to go to Edward. I think, generally, he wanted one of his sons to get to USE his title. It was something he could pass down to one of his kids for their personal use. (I felt Edward hinted at that line of thinking when he pointed out that Andrew, technically, should have gotten it, but Philip missed the opportunity.)

 

[EllieCat]

I daresay all you in the know about British titles will jump on me when i say that it might be a good idea for Royal Dukes to be held by HRHs only, and only their secondary title be carried on down their descendants. E.G. Edward would have DoE until he dies, James gets Earl of Wessex for himself and descendants, and EoE title goes back to the Crown until the next Royal DUke comes along...

 

[Erin9]

You very well could be right. The Clarence House source released a similar statement about the articles revolving around Archie and Lili's future titles as well. HMQ is still alive and it is inappropriate to have such conversations right now. So I don't blame Charles whatsoever for not touching the topics now.

I agree on that. Charles is right about all of it being inappropriate subject matter right now. DofE, future HRHs, etc.

 

[King of the Jungle]

This discussion seems premature and perhaps media led.
If Edward were to become The Duke of Edinburgh, would Louise, as first born, inherit the title next?

 

[Osipi]

This discussion seems premature and perhaps media led.
If Edward were to become The Duke of Edinburgh, would Louise, as first born, inherit the title next?

Only if the remainder to the title states that a female can inherit or Parliament changes the peerage inheritance rules.

 

[Stefan]

There's also been a story in Vanity Fair and people like Victoria and Dickie Arbiter saying all of this is nonsense.

The best then would be if it would be officially denied by Clarence House.

 

[Claire]

I was wondering if this doesnt show us who the sources of the royal experts are. Victoria and Dickie Arbiter talk to someone in the BP press room - which wouldn't be a stretch as that is where he used to work. BP is adamant that the title will go to Edward as it was promised by HM and you don't break that. They are also the ones that requested the Wessex's interviews. Edward and Sophie notable Edward didnt phone and request to the interviewed - that request came from the top and Edward needed his arm wrung to agree to it.
Richard Kay talks to someone at Clarence House where is it still up in the air and yep they won't talk about it until a sensible time after HM's death. The secret source the Times spoke to said completely no. Now although we dont know who sits on secret committee - it is reasonable to say that HM Private Secretary does as well as Charles, possibly even Williams. It seems more than likely that the houses are arguing about a few things in Charles's taskforce. Wonder what else is likely to leak.
Edward's comment about it had been a 'pipe-dream' and not a done deal in a recent interview with CNN tell me he knows it's gone.

 

[Osipi]

The best then would be if it would be officially denied by Clarence House.

Charles, though, over the years and explicitly refused to answer any questions about being King or his plans for his reign. The most he's said, I believe, is asking the questioner if he realized that in order to be King, his mother would have to die. He's not about to release anything through Clarence House about his future reign. Even being asked if Camilla would be Queen, the answer given is "we'll have to see won't we?"

I seriously believe that Charles has so much now on his plate as The Prince of Wales that he wants to accomplish still that he doesn't really have time to sit and think about wearing the crown and reigning and making changes. I don't think Charles has a revengeful nature either. Any decisions made *when the time comes* will be what he thinks is best for the monarchy.

Edward's comment about it had been a 'pipe-dream' and not a done deal in a recent interview with CNN tell me he knows it's gone.

All I read into this is that Edward would find it an honor and a privilege to carry his father's Duke of Edinburgh title and carry on his work with the Duke of Edinburg Award that he's heavily involved in. Of course he knows its not a "done deal" but there's nothing really to indicate that it won't happen. ?

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Charles, though, over the years and explicitly refused to answer any questions about being King or his plans for his reign. The most he's said, I believe, is asking the questioner if he realized that in order to be King, his mother would have to die. He's not about to release anything through Clarence House about his future reign. Even being asked if Camilla would be Queen, the answer given is "we'll have to see won't we?"

I seriously believe that Charles has so much now on his plate as The Prince of Wales that he wants to accomplish still that he doesn't really have time to sit and think about wearing the crown and reigning and making changes. I don't think Charles has a revengeful nature either. Any decisions made *when the time comes* will be what he thinks is best for the monarchy.



All I read into this is that Edward would find it an honor and a privilege to carry his father's Duke of Edinburgh title and carry on his work with the Duke of Edinburg Award that he's heavily involved in. Of course he knows its not a "done deal" but there's nothing really to indicate that it won't happen. ?

I don't believe the reports that Charles won't grant the Duke of Ediburgh dukedom onto Edward. The Queen and Prince Charles are in very unique situation - they are both elderly and the decision on the Dukedom of Edinburgh may have to be dealt with Prince William. Although it is unlikely, the possibility has been more of a reality since covid-19

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

This is incredibly petty and dishonerable behaviour by the P of W IMO. [...].

Wow wow, come on, calm down... Nothing has happened at all and there is nothing Charles can do:

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen is still alive. The title is inherited by Prince Charles, Duke of Edinburgh.

You are already crucifying Charles for something which has not happened and simply can not happen at all as long as the title has not been reverted to the Crown...

 

[sophie25]

Wow wow, come on, calm down... Nothing has happened at all and there is nothing Charles can do:

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen is still alive. The title is inherited by Prince Charles, Duke of Edinburgh.

You are already crucifying Charles for something which has not happened and simply can not happen at all as long as the title has not been reverted to the Crown...

The Clarence House statement said nothing had been decided but it actually was decided at the time of Edward's wedding and Edward himself has spoken about his eventual succession to the title since then. The statement is raising a question mark over Edward becoming D of E that simply wasn't there before.