Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles

[US Royal Watcher]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The announcement in 1999 (see third link in post above) stated: "The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown."

In my opinion, announcing the Prince's "agreement" by definition announces his intention, and as the announcement was issued in the Queen's name, I do not think it would have been interpreted as disrespectful to her.

Very interesting. Thanks for digging this up. I agree that this announcement is not disrespectful of the Queen - she actually made it. I meant that it would be disrespectful for Charles to issue a statement about actions he will take as King. It would seem like he is looking forward to is mother's passing - which I am sure he is not.

[MsJulie]

This can be moved. I looked but could not find any topic….my question is this, Since Prince Philip has been gone for over a year and the ‘word’ was Prince Edward would get his Fathers Dukedom, has anyone heard if the Queen will bestow Edward with his Fathers title?

When Charles becomes King, i doubt that it will ever happen. I though the Queen would do it, especially with her health problems. Edward and Sophie are very hard working royals, IMO, Edward deserves the title.

Also when Charles is King, will he continue to let Edward and Sophie continue as woking royals or will he ‘fire/retire’ all the extra help. Charles is no spring chicken.

[Sionevar]

Originally Posted by MsJulie

This can be moved. I looked but could not find any topic….my question is this, Since Prince Philip has been gone for over a year and the ‘word’ was Prince Edward would get his Fathers Dukedom, has anyone heard if the Queen will bestow Edward with his Fathers title?

When Charles becomes King, i doubt that it will ever happen. I though the Queen would do it, especially with her health problems. Edward and Sophie are very hard working royals, IMO, Edward deserves the title.

The Queen can't give Edward the Edinburgh dukedom, because it currently belongs to Charles, who inherited the title upon Philip's death, being Philip's eldest legitimate son.

In theory, she could create a second, entirely separate dukedom that had Edinburgh somewhere in the title, and give that to Edward, but I don't see that happening.

When the Queen dies, and Charles becomes King, the dukedom will merge with the Crown, and will then be available for recreation. Whether Charles grants it to Edward remains to be seen. I personally hope he will, if only to honour the arrangement that was agreed upon back when Edward got married. Not giving it to him would IMHO be awfully mean.

[muriel]

Originally Posted by MsJulie

This can be moved. I looked but could not find any topic….my question is this, Since Prince Philip has been gone for over a year and the ‘word’ was Prince Edward would get his Fathers Dukedom, has anyone heard if the Queen will bestow Edward with his Fathers title?

When Charles becomes King, i doubt that it will ever happen. I though the Queen would do it, especially with her health problems. Edward and Sophie are very hard working royals, IMO, Edward deserves the title.

Also when Charles is King, will he continue to let Edward and Sophie continue as woking royals or will he ‘fire/retire’ all the extra help. Charles is no spring chicken.

At the time of the wedding of Edward and Sophie, it was communicated that in the next reign it was intended that Charles would create Edward the Duke of Edinburgh. As of now, Charles is the Duke of Edinburgh. When he becomes King, the title will merge with the crown, and Charles can then create Edward the next Duke of Edinburgh.

[winifred]

Originally Posted by MsJulie

Also when Charles is King, will he continue to let Edward and Sophie continue as woking royals or will he ‘fire/retire’ all the extra help. Charles is no spring chicken.

There are currently 12 working royals, only 4 of whom are under 70 - William, Kate, Sophie, Edward. Charles isn't going to sack Anne, Edward, Sophie, Alexandra, the Gloucesters and the Duke of Kent when he becomes King and leave just himself, Camilla and the Cambridges to carry out royal duties. It will be years before George is ready to be a full-time royal.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by winifred

There are currently 12 working royals, only 4 of whom are under 70 - William, Kate, Sophie, Edward. Charles isn't going to sack Anne, Edward, Sophie, Alexandra, the Gloucesters and the Duke of Kent when he becomes King and leave just himself, Camilla and the Cambridges to carry out royal duties. It will be years before George is ready to be a full-time royal.

obviously he is not going to get rid of his siblings and cousins (except Andrew) but he wotn replace them when they drop off through natural attrition. Edward and Sophie are reasonably good hard working royals and young enough to go on for many years.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

[...] in 2005, Hubertus and the other Coburg males were not heirs to the dukedom of Albany.

Only male heirs born in wedlock may succeed to the dukedom, granted to Prince Leopold's "heirs male of his body lawfully begotten".

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...4977/page/2677

By the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, when a descendant of King George II (other than the issue of princesses married into foreign families) contracted marriage without the consent of the monarch, the marriage was null and void, and consequently the couple's children were illegitimate.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/apgb/Geo3/12/11/contents

For example, the Royal Marriages Act was followed when Prince Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex, married in breach of it. His marriage was declared null and void, and the couple's son Augustus Frederick d'Este was, as an illegitimate child, unable to inherit the dukedom of Sussex.


Per the author of Queen Victoria's Descendants, no descendant of Prince Leopold's only son, Charles Edward, ever sought approval from the British monarch before marrying.

Therefore, so long as the Royal Marriages Act was maintained, the grandchildren of Charles Edward, and their heirs, were illegitimate in the United Kingdom and excluded from the line of succession to the dukedom of Albany.


[...]

The Succession to the Crown Act of 2013 did legitimize marriages which were null and void under the Royal Marriages Act, but only if "in all the circumstances it was reasonable for the person concerned not to have been aware at the time of the marriage that the Act applied to it", per section 3, subsection 5 (a).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/20

If it was not reasonable for Duke Charles Edward's descendants to have been unaware that the Royal Marriages Act applied to them, then his heirs are still illegitimate in the United Kingdom and there are no heirs to the dukedom of Albany.

A British Foreign Office investigation in 1950 confirmed that none of the children of Duke Karl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Albany, requested permission from the British monarch for any of their marriages.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...O_45_25238.htm

Therefore, all of the grandchildren of Duke Karl Eduard were illegitimate in British law (at least until the Succession to the Crown Act), and consequently they and their descendants (including Hubertus) were not in line to petition for the succession to the suspended dukedom of Albany.

So between the death of Duke Karl Eduard's last surviving son (who was legitimate in British law as Karl Eduard received permission for his own marriage) in 1983 and the Succession to the Crown Act taking effect in 2015, the Dukedom of Albany was extinct and available for regrant. There was no legal obstacle to the Queen creating Prince Andrew in 1986, Prince Edward in 1999, or Prince William in 2011 as Duke of Albany.

[MonacoRoyalFan]

https://inews.co.uk/news/york-votes-...lement-1599094

Interesting that Councillor David Taylor expressed hopes of Princess Beatrice becoming The Duchess of York upon the city of York stripping Andrew of the freedom of the city.

“In contrast to her father, she is personable, intelligent and does her homework, or reads her briefing papers when visiting the City of York,” Mr Taylor said.

[Sionevar]

Originally Posted by MonacoRoyalFan

https://inews.co.uk/news/york-votes-...lement-1599094

Interesting that Councillor David Taylor expressed hopes of Princess Beatrice becoming The Duchess of York upon the city of York stripping Andrew of the freedom of the city.

“In contrast to her father, she is personable, intelligent and does her homework, or reads her briefing papers when visiting the City of York,” Mr Taylor said.

It's a nice idea, and I can easily see Beatrice doing a great job, bringing some prestige back to the title, but it's not going to happen. The dukedom will be left where it is, to become extinct again at Andrew's death, and may eventually be re-granted once all current negative connotations have faded.

[DukeOfAster]

I was wondering if anyone had heard when, now that Charles is king, that Edward may be made The Duke of Edinburgh. I was hoping that it was going to happen today when he announced his giving the title of The Prince of Wales to William. I think that it is well deserved of Edward and Sophie for the wonderful work they have done through the years.

[HighGoalHighDreams]

While I believe this will happen in due course, the theme of today was very much the future of the monarchy and Charles's core support system in his immediate family: Camilla, William, and Catherine. I think we should anticipate this after the period of mourning.

[Somebody]

Current lines of succession to each of the royal dukedoms (from old to young) - I've included the generation (starting from the current duke) so you get a feel whether the title is very likely to remain (for example the Dukedom of Kent) or whether there is only one holder in each generation - making it doubtful whether it will remain for a long time to come (Gloucester and Sussex) or whether it is already almost certain that it will go extinct for lack of male-line descendants (York).

Prince Richard is the current and second Duke of Gloucester of the fifth creation - son of prince Henry who received the peerage in 1928.
1. Alexander Windsor, Earl of Ulster (1st generation)
2. Xan Windsor, Lord Culloden (2nd generation)

Prince Edward is the current and second Duke of Kent of the second creation - son of prince George who received the peerage in 1934.
1. George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews (1st generation)
2. Edward Windsor, Lord Downpatrick (2nd generation)
3. Lord Nicholas Windsor (1st generation)
4. Albert (2nd generation)
5. Leopold (2nd generation)
6. Louis Windsor (2nd generation)
7. Prince Michael of Kent (same generation)
8. Lord Frederick Windsor (1st generation)

Prince Andrew is the current and first Duke of York of the eighth creation (in 1986). There is nobody in the line of succession to this dukedom.

Prince William is the current and first Duke of Cambridge of the fifth creation (in 2011).
1. Prince George of Cambridge (1st generation)
2. Prince Louis of Cambridge (1st generation)
This dukedom is likely to merge with the crown - the only way for this not to happen is for William and George to die before Charles, so Charlotte becomes queen and Louis inherits the dukedom.

Prince Henry (Harry) is the current and first Duke of Sussex of the second creation (in 2018).
1. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor (1st generation)

[Duke of Leaside]

Originally Posted by Somebody

...

Prince William is the current and first Duke of Cambridge of the fifth creation (in 2011).
1. Prince George of Cambridge (1st generation)
2. Prince Louis of Cambridge (1st generation)
This dukedom is likely to merge with the crown - the only way for this not to happen is for William and George to die before Charles, so Charlotte becomes queen and Louis inherits the dukedom.

...

And of course even in the unlikely event that William and George both die before King Charles, there is still a chance that the dukedom of Cambridge could merge with the crown:


In the even more unlikely event that George at that point already had a legitimate son as his first born child - in which case said son would become King instead of his Aunt Charlotte becoming Queen.

[Hans-Rickard]

Originally Posted by DukeOfAster

I was wondering if anyone had heard when, now that Charles is king, that Edward may be made The Duke of Edinburgh. I was hoping that it was going to happen today when he announced his giving the title of The Prince of Wales to William. I think that it is well deserved of Edward and Sophie for the wonderful work they have done through the years.

It will come in due course i’m sure, like it was announced back in 1999. Nothing in that announcement stated that it would happen immediately upon accession…

Prince Williams title can’t be compared to Edwards as he is the heir to the throne and it was more important to make his title clear immediately…

Edward is not unimportant but as he is not the heir and already holds 2 Earldoms and 1 Viscounty, it can simply wait.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

A British Foreign Office investigation in 1950 confirmed that none of the children of Duke Karl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Albany, requested permission from the British monarch for any of their marriages.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...O_45_25238.htm

Therefore, all of the grandchildren of Duke Karl Eduard were illegitimate in British law (at least until the Succession to the Crown Act), and consequently they and their descendants (including Hubertus) were not in line to petition for the succession to the suspended dukedom of Albany.

Does that finding also affect the position of King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden in the line of succession to the British Crown?


I mean, as a descendant of Margaret of Connaught, his father did not require consent to marry under the Royal Marriages Act, but his mother, as a descendant of Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, did.

[Tatiana Maria]

Yes, it does. See the earlier discussion here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...e-44513-3.html

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

3. It should be noted that it is customary not to create a new title while anyone is alive who still uses or has used that title. Although Beatrice and Eugenie seem to have dropped the 'of York' since they married they are still Princesses 'of York' and so it would be inappropriate to even think about giving the York title to anyone else while either of them are alive ... and before anyone starts on the previous two creations it should be noted that the 'of York' is both situations had been 'promoted' to 'of UK'. Even so both The Queen Mum and Princess Margaret were consulted before Andrew was given the York Dukedom in 1986 and they were happy for that to happy as neither had used 'of York' since December 1936 when they became HM The Queen and HRH The Princess Margaret.

You made the same statement and I posted the same response twice earlier this year, but as you've repeated your claim for a third time I will repost my rebuttal for a third time.

If you (or anybody else) believe I have gotten any facts wrong, you are of course very welcome to say so.



There is no such custom, because the very particular situation in which

1) A royal peerage reverts to the crown because the peer lacks a male heir, not because the peer becomes king,

2) the peer is survived by family members who are or formerly were named with the territorial designation of the peerage, and

3) at least one of these family members is still living when a subsequent royal dukedom is created.

has only happened for two peerages in the history of the British royal family: Cumberland and Connaught.

The dukedom of Cumberland reverted to the crown in 1790. The next creations of royal dukedoms happened in 1799 when Princes Edward and Ernest Augustus were made dukes. The widowed Duchess of Cumberland was alive at that time, but Prince Ernest Augustus was created Duke of Cumberland.

The dukedom of Connaught reverted to the crown in 1943. The remaining family members who were or had been "of Connaught" were Princess Arthur of Connaught and Lady Patricia Ramsay (who had dropped her title when she married). The only subsequent creation of a royal dukedom to happen during either of their lifetimes was for Philip in 1947. Of course, he was created Duke of Edinburgh and not Duke of Connaught, but in view of the Ireland situation, Connaught probably would not have been under consideration even if Princess Arthur and Lady Patricia had both passed away before 1947.


Therefore: In 50% of the instances where the dukedom could have been recreated in the lifetime of a person using its territorial designation, the dukedom was in fact recreated. And that is not even counting cases in which the former bearers of the territorial designation were no longer using it.

[Opals]

If I'm understanding all of this correctly right now the only Royal Dukedoms available for Prince Williams kids are:

Duke of Edinburgh - until issued to Prince Edward
Duke of Clarence

Once Prince Andrew dies Duke of York will also be available.
Once Prince William is king Duke of Cambridge would also be an option

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Opals

If I'm understanding all of this correctly right now the only Royal Dukedoms available for Prince William's kids are:

Duke of Edinburgh - until issued to Prince Edward
Duke of Clarence

Once Prince Andrew dies Duke of York will also be available.
Once Prince William is king Duke of Cambridge would also be an option

William doesn't have to give a dukedom to either of his sons. Yes, the custom is there, but if he plans to continue the "slimming down" of the BRF that his father intends to initiate, he may not give either of them a dukedom knowing George will become Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay in time. He could give Louis an earldom, just like QEII gave to Edward.

[Sunnystar]

Originally Posted by Opals

If I'm understanding all of this correctly right now the only Royal Dukedoms available for Prince Williams kids are:

Duke of Edinburgh - until issued to Prince Edward
Duke of Clarence

Once Prince Andrew dies Duke of York will also be available.
Once Prince William is king Duke of Cambridge would also be an option

George III made one of his sons Duke of Clarence & St Andrews, and Victoria made the eldest son of the PoW Duke of Clarence & Avondale, so it's possible Charles or William could use all three, in separate dukedoms, if necessary.

Some Scottish royal dukedoms that are extinct include:
Duke of Ross
Duke of Kintyre & Lorne

Beyond that, those are the only dukedoms that have been created for royals currently available. Doesn't preclude Charles or William from creating an entirely new dukedom with no prior royal association.

I suppose the question would be, then, what are the potential places that could be used for such a purpose?