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  #741  
Old 07-18-2021, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The example of the Princess Royal "creating" her children with no titles isn't totally correct. They did refuse a title for Mark Phillips which would have enabled Peter to inherit on the death of his father. It's very similar to what happened with Princess Margaret whose husband was created a peer and he passed that onto his oldest son. Titles and styles, at this time, just are not able to be passed down through the female line.
The Sovereign is the fount of honors. Queen Elizabeth was at liberty to create a hereditary peerage for her daughter (or a life peerage, which would at minimum have bestowed the courtesy title of The Honourable on her children) or to allow her daughter to pass on her royal title, unless of course the Government advised against it, since the Sovereign is by convention obligated to follow the advice of the Government. She made the decision not to.

This press report from 1977 does not mention whether it was Anne or Mark who was offered the peerage, so I am not sure that information was ever leaked. I do believe that it was Mark who was offered the peerage, given the precedent set with Antony Armstrong-Jones.

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/11/16/a...e-british.html

I agree that elimininating courtesy titles from children of royal peers while they continue to be used by the children of non-royal peers would be a step too far.
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  #742  
Old 07-18-2021, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
Actually this appears to be the moving of titles from all except the direct line now _ I expect that Charles wants James to be known only as James Mountbatten Windsor, same for Louise and would like both York Princess to be known only by their married names going forward so Eugenie Brookbanks etc.
It is to standardize the monarchy going forward all royals except direct heir will have no titles at all, keeping in line with how the Princess Royal created her children and the styling of Prince Harry’s children.
So no titles for Charlotte and Louis’s children either.

I really thing this is brother some in that you will have peers with titles and nephews of the king without. Also there are a number of people that are going to say that Charles has done this simply to cover Harry’s wants and suddenly make them policy.

In that case, Louis should have no dukedom either and be known simply as HRH Prince Louis of Wales when Charles is king and William is PoW, and later as HRH The Prince Louis when William is king.

I can't predict the future, but I find that unlikely. I believe either Charles or William (whoever is the King at the time) will make Louis a royal duke when he gets married.
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  #743  
Old 07-18-2021, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In that case, Louis should have no dukedom either and be known simply as HRH Prince Louis of Wales when Charles is king and William is PoW, and later as HRH The Prince Louis when William is king.

I can't predict the future, but I find that unlikely. I believe either Charles or William (whoever is the King at the time) will make Louis a royal duke when he gets married.
In the fun of speculating many years (and even decades) ahead, I predict that this will be tied to Louis' place as a working member of the family. If Louis is intended to work as a full-time royal, he will be given a Dukedom; if not, he will not.
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  #744  
Old 07-19-2021, 02:14 AM
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Is it possible for Prince Louis to be made a royal duke before he gets married?
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  #745  
Old 07-19-2021, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Is it possible for Prince Louis to be made a royal duke before he gets married?
The monarch is the fount of all honour, and so, nothing stops the monarch of the day from making Louis a royal duke at any time. That said, tradition would suggest that Louis is unlikely to be created a Duke till his wedding.
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  #746  
Old 07-19-2021, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
The monarch is the fount of all honour, and so, nothing stops the monarch of the day from making Louis a royal duke at any time. That said, tradition would suggest that Louis is unlikely to be created a Duke till his wedding.


But then this tradition seems only have been started by Queen Elizabeth II. as her father was made a Duke in 1920 several years before his Wedding and also the late duke of Gloucester. From her uncles only the late Duke of Kent had to wait until his Wedding.
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  #747  
Old 07-19-2021, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But then this tradition seems only have been started by Queen Elizabeth II. as her father was made a Duke in 1920 several years before his Wedding and also the late duke of Gloucester. From her uncles only the late Duke of Kent had to wait until his Wedding.
Fair point.
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  #748  
Old 07-19-2021, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But then this tradition seems only have been started by Queen Elizabeth II. as her father was made a Duke in 1920 several years before his Wedding and also the late duke of Gloucester. From her uncles only the late Duke of Kent had to wait until his Wedding.
He didn't have to wait until his wedding day though.

He was created Duke of Kent on 12th October but didn't marry until 29th November 1934.
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  #749  
Old 07-19-2021, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
He didn't have to wait until his wedding day though.

He was created Duke of Kent on 12th October but didn't marry until 29th November 1934.

Ok. But he had to wait longer then his 2 brothers
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  #750  
Old 07-21-2021, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HighGoalHighDreams View Post
In the fun of speculating many years (and even decades) ahead, I predict that this will be tied to Louis' place as a working member of the family. If Louis is intended to work as a full-time royal, he will be given a Dukedom; if not, he will not.
You nailed it on the head here, the question is going to be what do you want to do. They won't make the same mistake as Harry, granting him a Dukedom and then him going off into the sunset. If you want a title, you work, if you don't want a title, then you are free to do as you please.
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  #751  
Old 07-21-2021, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In that case, Louis should have no dukedom either and be known simply as HRH Prince Louis of Wales when Charles is king and William is PoW, and later as HRH The Prince Louis when William is king.

I can't predict the future, but I find that unlikely. I believe either Charles or William (whoever is the King at the time) will make Louis a royal duke when he gets married.
In an age of sex blind succession I'd be surprised if only Louis was granted a dukedom & not his sister.

More likely that neither would be I think. I suspect they will both be offered the option of being entirely private citizens with the ability to abjure their styles & titles if they want.
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  #752  
Old 07-21-2021, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
In an age of sex blind succession I'd be surprised if only Louis was granted a dukedom & not his sister.
It seems the British royal family plans to maintain traditional gender discriminatory titulature in spite of Parliament's introduction of sex-blind succession to the throne (but not to other titles). The dukedom of Sussex and the earldom of Forfar were created after the changes to the laws of succession, but their succession was limited to heirs male. Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie married after the change in succession, but were required to drop their territorial designations and take their husbands' names in communications from Buckingham Palace.
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  #753  
Old 07-21-2021, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It seems the British royal family plans to maintain traditional gender discriminatory titulature in spite of Parliament's introduction of sex-blind succession to the throne (but not to other titles). The dukedom of Sussex and the earldom of Forfar were created after the changes to the laws of succession, but their succession was limited to heirs male. Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie married after the change in succession, but were required to drop their territorial designations and take their husbands' names in communications from Buckingham Palace.
Actually, this makes sense to me. If they changed it up for the British royal family and royal peerages, it would have to be the same thing for *all* peerages of the UK. That's a totally different can of worms? Just guessing here.

The change to equal primogeniture to the succession to the Crown only involves the main line of succession.
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  #754  
Old 07-21-2021, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It seems the British royal family plans to maintain traditional gender discriminatory titulature in spite of Parliament's introduction of sex-blind succession to the throne (but not to other titles). The dukedom of Sussex and the earldom of Forfar were created after the changes to the laws of succession, but their succession was limited to heirs male. Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie married after the change in succession, but were required to drop their territorial designations and take their husbands' names in communications from Buckingham Palace.
But any dukedom created for Charlotte could still be limited to her heirs male. So tradition would be maintained but at the same time she would be treated equally to her younger brother.
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  #755  
Old 07-21-2021, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Actually, this makes sense to me. If they changed it up for the British royal family and royal peerages, it would have to be the same thing for *all* peerages of the UK. That's a totally different can of worms? Just guessing here.



The change to equal primogeniture to the succession to the Crown only involves the main line of succession.
I don't see a need for all peerages to have to have a gender neutral succession just because the royal peerages being created like that, but if they started creating gender neutral peerages it'd probably be seen as taking sides on a political issue which would be frowned upon.
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  #756  
Old 07-21-2021, 05:06 PM
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I don't see a need for all peerages to have to have a gender neutral succession just because the royal peerages being created like that, but if they started creating gender neutral peerages it'd probably be seen as taking sides on a political issue which would be frowned upon.
Now *that's* a great point.
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  #757  
Old 07-21-2021, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
But any dukedom created for Charlotte could still be limited to her heirs male. So tradition would be maintained but at the same time she would be treated equally to her younger brother.
It would perhaps be too inconsistent to treat Charlotte equally to her brother while her daughters and other female members of the family continue to be treated unequally to their brothers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Actually, this makes sense to me. If they changed it up for the British royal family and royal peerages, it would have to be the same thing for *all* peerages of the UK. That's a totally different can of worms? Just guessing here.
Although they generally do not have rights of succession, daughters of non-royal peers already have the freedom to choose not to take their husbands' names.
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  #758  
Old 07-21-2021, 05:37 PM
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It would perhaps be too inconsistent to treat Charlotte equally to her brother while her daughters and other female members of the family continue to be treated unequally to their brothers.
Possibly, although I think it would be a hard sell to the British public two decades or so ahead to deprive Charlotte of something her younger brother might be given.

As mentioned up thread any such dukedoms could even be life peerages.
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  #759  
Old 07-21-2021, 06:14 PM
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Possibly, although I think it would be a hard sell to the British public two decades or so ahead to deprive Charlotte of something her younger brother might be given.
That is an interesting question. On the one hand, there seems to be a movement in Britain and many other countries towards increased gender equity. On the other hand, polls have found that younger generations prefer male-only or male-preference succession more than older generations do, in regards to both peerages and the throne.
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  #760  
Old 07-22-2021, 03:56 PM
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On the other hand, polls have found that younger generations prefer male-only or male-preference succession more than older generations do, in regards to both peerages and the throne.
I'm genuinely surprised by that. I'd always presumed that young equalled more progressive/less traditional but clearly that's a lazy assumption on my part.

Interesting to learn that.
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