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  #661  
Old 07-12-2021, 04:53 PM
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And the Princess Consort announcement was worded thus:

Quote:
Mrs Parker Bowles will use the title HRH The Duchess of Cornwall after marriage. It is intended that Mrs Parker Bowles should use the title HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne.

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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Edward and Sophie recently spoke about it in a joined interview. I would consider that a confirmation. They were personally asked by the duke of Edinburgh in advance of their wedding if they were open to being made the Duke (and Duchess) of Edinburgh in due time, i.e., after the title had merged with the Crown. They agreed to that, which meant that Edward would receive a lesser title for the time being. [...] If Charles didn't want to follow through or be bound by the agreement in the future [...] Edward would have received a different dukedom instead of an earldom.
If you are referring to this interview, in which they spoke about being asked to take on the Duke of Edinburgh title, I don't see any discussion in the interview regarding the decision to receive an earldom for the time being, or what peerage Prince Edward would have received without the Edinburgh agreement. If there is something I overlooked, please correct me.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-fa...eving-grandpa/

It is a burden that the Earl does not carry lightly – not least when he is the one who will inherit his father’s title, the Duke of Edinburgh, when his eldest brother takes the throne. The Countess recalls the time when, two days after their engagement, Prince Philip popped round to ask his youngest (and, some say, favourite) son if he would be willing to become the next Duke of Edinburgh. ‘We sat there slightly stunned. He literally came straight in and said: “Right. I’d like it very much if you would consider that.”’

The Earl is almost apologetic as he admits that ‘theoretically’ the title should go to the Duke of York. ‘It’s a very bittersweet role to take on because the only way the title can come to me is after both my parents have actually passed away,’ he explains. ‘It has to go back to the Crown first. ‘My father was very keen that the title should continue, but he didn’t quite move quickly enough with Andrew, so it was us who he eventually had the conversation with. It was a lovely idea; a lovely thought.’

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Besides Prince Edward, the only future holder of the title (in that creation) that could be "royal" would be James, as any children of James would not have HRH. And since it is highly unlikely (according to Sophie) that James will ever use the HRH, I believe this is a moot point.

So after Edward, there really is no one that could possibly "sully" the royal title.
I believe the concern the person had in mind was that the title of future Dukes of Edinburgh would associate them with the royal family, with or without the HRH. I am not sure if that is the reality, but that seems to be the suggestion.
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  #662  
Old 07-12-2021, 06:08 PM
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When Charles creates his youngest brother the Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex, Earl of Forfar, Viscount Severn indeed, after Edward it will cease to be a "Royal Dukedom" as James, possibly alike Archie, will not use the style and titulature which is rightfully his (HRH and a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

And with James's eventual son it will go the way of Kent, Gloucester and Sussex: lost for royal use and becoming a "normal" Dukedom. It is possible that in changed view of a modern monarchy Charles has another idea on this phenomenon of "Royal Dukes". But so far both his sons are created Dukes anyway and possibly this all is pure speculation by the media.
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  #663  
Old 07-12-2021, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
...breaking two promises?

A. The Princess Consort promise

B. The Duke of Edinburgh promise

For various reasons, Charles is unlikely to be a very popular king (at least at first). And if he breaks two promises immediately after his ascension, he’ll be just like any bloke at the corner pub telling porkies to suit himself.

PS I don’t believe the story in the Times.
All this was an eternity ago. Society and monarchy have enormously changed. Who could have predicted 15-20 years ago that a royal Duke has broken with the monarchy and is living in California? With his Heir and a future Duke possibly growing up and living all his life in the United States.

In contrary to Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, there is no any role expected for James Mountbatten-Windsor. Should he, alike Archie, become a future "Royal Duke" too and try to pursue a private life?

It are all points of view which would never even have occured 15-20 years ago but are very actual now as the monarchy will change enormously under Charles and even more under William. It is only wise that they are not rigid on what was once a view in June 1999 but has a different views in 2021.
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  #664  
Old 07-12-2021, 06:33 PM
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I personally don't like Edward being punished for his brother's and nephew's behavior; and that is what would happen if the agreement that was made between the duke of Edinburgh, the queen and the prince of Wales (and Edward himself although formally he has no role in it) would be nullified.

There is no reason why Edward who has worked most of his life as the intended heir of this title is suddenly not receiving this title.
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  #665  
Old 07-13-2021, 02:20 AM
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As I see it:

A) Camilla will be Queen legally. I would be surprised if she were styled as HRH Princess Consort.

B) Edward will be created as Duke of Edinburgh. Can't see any reason not to. He and Sophie are likely to continue to have a key supporting role in the years to come.

C) Archie and Lillie are unlikely to get HRHs as I suspect LPs will be altered. H&M can scheme and shout as much as they like, but, IMO, it is going to happen, and really has nothing to do with 25% of their ethnic heritage.
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  #666  
Old 07-13-2021, 10:29 AM
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Ok, as a complete outsider, I only look at royalty with curiosity. My opinion is my own as I ponder the future.

I think royal dukes should be life peers and should be limited to the children of the monarch. I think it was a mistake to give a dukedom to Prince Harry and I think it is sad to lose the Kent and Gloucester lines. I also like the idea of a life peerage for the princesses who cannot be the Princess Royal.

I can see the historical value of having Prince Philip be the only Duke of Edinburgh. I do not think it is good for the grandchildren (James and Archie), who will not work for the monarchy to have royal dukedoms. I also do not think grandchildren, who do not work for the monarchy should be prince or princess. These are my ideas that I think are good for the monarchy.

I really like the Earl of Wessex as a person and it is a fine title to pass to his son. I also have no problem with Archie being the Earl of Dumbarton.

I also think there should be no queen consort title, because there is no king consort title. I look at things to be gender equitable in the future.
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  #667  
Old 07-13-2021, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
Ok, as a complete outsider, I only look at royalty with curiosity. My opinion is my own as I ponder the future.

I think royal dukes should be life peers and should be limited to the children of the monarch. I think it was a mistake to give a dukedom to Prince Harry and I think it is sad to lose the Kent and Gloucester lines. I also like the idea of a life peerage for the princesses who cannot be the Princess Royal.

I can see the historical value of having Prince Philip be the only Duke of Edinburgh. I do not think it is good for the grandchildren (James and Archie), who will not work for the monarchy to have royal dukedoms. I also do not think grandchildren, who do not work for the monarchy should be prince or princess. These are my ideas that I think are good for the monarchy.

I really like the Earl of Wessex as a person and it is a fine title to pass to his son. I also have no problem with Archie being the Earl of Dumbarton.

I also think there should be no queen consort title, because there is no king consort title. I look at things to be gender equitable in the future.
That's impossible: Charles is currently the fifth Duke of Edinburgh.

First creation:
Frederick (1726-1751)
George (1751-1760) - merged with the crown

Second creation:
Alfred (1866-1900) - his son died before him, all his titles became extinct

Third creation:
Philip (1947-2021)
Charles (2021 - [his ascension to the throne])
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  #668  
Old 07-13-2021, 06:09 PM
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I think it would be mightily unfair for Charles not to follow out the agreement made between himself, the Queen and Prince Philip when Edward married. It was the wish of his mother and father and for that reason I do think King Charles (or whatever regnal name he chooses) will see it through.

I don't see much evidence to suggest otherwise either, one article in one paper is not exactly evidence. The reality is in time there are titles waiting for both William's children - Duke of York for Louis and Princess Royal for Charlotte.
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  #669  
Old 07-13-2021, 09:35 PM
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Louis can't be Duke of York while Andrew is alive and by convention not while Beatrice and Eugenie are alive either as they are still Princesses 'of York' even though they have dropped the 'of York' now they are married.

It is also not impossible for Andrew to remarry and have a son, in which case that son will inherit York.

Charlotte can't be The Princess Royal while Anne lives either.
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  #670  
Old 07-13-2021, 09:43 PM
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Neither can become Duke of York or Princess Royal during Charles’s reign either. And Charles could live to be a hundred.
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  #671  
Old 07-13-2021, 09:58 PM
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There is no formal reason why Louis couldn't become the Duke of York if Andrew would be deceased (although it is uncommon) during Charles reign. There is no rule that the dukedom can only be awarded to the second son of the Sovereign. Although I wouldn't be surprised if he is made Duke of Cambridge in due time (but that would require his father to be king).

I don't think there are any formal regulations for the Princess Royal title either - other than that it cannot be awarded as long as the current Princess Royal is alive.
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  #672  
Old 07-13-2021, 10:09 PM
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Sophie has gotten some wonderful press lately.

Sensitive Charles might not like that.

Sophie and Edward remaining Earl and Countess of Wessex seems fine in everyone's book. They are well-regarded. Duke or Earl, he fulfills his dad's legacy quite well.

Charles's insistence on primacy regarding his siblings ...is something we will all watch for sure. This Edinburgh salvo is just the beginning.
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  #673  
Old 07-14-2021, 12:05 AM
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Prince Phillips dukedom, Duke of Edinburgh, now belongs to Prince Charles. IF Prince Charles does not abide by the wishes or promises or decrees made by the Queen years ago and wishes of Prince Phillip for Edward to inherit the Dukedom, can Prince Charles give Prince Edward another Dukedom?

When Prince Charles dies and Prince William is King, can Prince William give the Duke of Edinburgh to his uncle Prince Edward?

There is an age difference of 15 years between Charles and Edward, so Edward would more then likely still be alive when William is King.

Thanks
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  #674  
Old 07-14-2021, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
That's impossible: Charles is currently the fifth Duke of Edinburgh.

First creation:
Frederick (1726-1751)
George (1751-1760) - merged with the crown

Second creation:
Alfred (1866-1900) - his son died before him, all his titles became extinct

Third creation:
Philip (1947-2021)
Charles (2021 - [his ascension to the throne])

Yes, of course. However, I do not think Prince Charles will be known as the Duke of Edinburgh throughout history. He has other titles that take presidency. I think I may start referring to him as the Duke of Edinburgh, but I don't think it will catch on. I should have written that I can see why it would be beneficial for Philip to be the last one to be known as the Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #675  
Old 07-14-2021, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJulie View Post
Prince Phillips dukedom, Duke of Edinburgh, now belongs to Prince Charles. IF Prince Charles does not abide by the wishes or promises or decrees made by the Queen years ago and wishes of Prince Phillip for Edward to inherit the Dukedom, can Prince Charles give Prince Edward another Dukedom?

When Prince Charles dies and Prince William is King, can Prince William give the Duke of Edinburgh to his uncle Prince Edward?

There is an age difference of 15 years between Charles and Edward, so Edward would more then likely still be alive when William is King.

Thanks
Once the Dukedom reverts to the crown (when the holder becomes King, either Charles or William, or if something tragic happens, George) then the monarch is free to bestow the Dukedom on a new person, such as Edward.

On the same note, the Queen can give Edward another Dukedom now (there are still a few available, plus the Queen could create a new one, as was done for the Duke of Windsor). When Charles is King he can give any available Dukedom he wants (or none) to Edward. Same with William.

And as another commentor pointed out, once the York Dukedom reverts (likely on the death of Andrew unless he has a son), though convention usually prevents a Dukedom to be assigned while children of the last Duke live, there is no actual rule barring such.

I don't know which dukedoms Wiliam will give his sons, but I am hoping for one 'out-of-the-box' selection: Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews (or Duke of Clarence, and for the first time, Duke of St. Andrews).
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  #676  
Old 07-14-2021, 01:28 AM
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I doubt that Duke of St Andrews will be given when Earl of St Andrews is the subsidiary title of The Duke of Kent.

In addition if Scotland does end up voting for independence no new Scottish titles will be given. It would also not be acceptable to many Scots to give such a title in the current political situation between England and Scotland.
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  #677  
Old 07-14-2021, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
Yes, of course. However, I do not think Prince Charles will be known as the Duke of Edinburgh throughout history. He has other titles that take presidency. I think I may start referring to him as the Duke of Edinburgh, but I don't think it will catch on. I should have written that I can see why it would be beneficial for Philip to be the last one to be known as the Duke of Edinburgh.
There are reports that Charles enquired about using the Duke of Edinburgh title when in Scotland and was told that Rothesay takes precedence over all other Dukedoms in Scotland and so he can't use it there.
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  #678  
Old 07-14-2021, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJulie View Post
Prince Phillips dukedom, Duke of Edinburgh, now belongs to Prince Charles. IF Prince Charles does not abide by the wishes or promises or decrees made by the Queen years ago and wishes of Prince Phillip for Edward to inherit the Dukedom, can Prince Charles give Prince Edward another Dukedom?

When Prince Charles dies and Prince William is King, can Prince William give the Duke of Edinburgh to his uncle Prince Edward?

There is an age difference of 15 years between Charles and Edward, so Edward would more then likely still be alive when William is King.

Thanks
That's my thought as well. It's pretty clear that William and Kate have a good relationship with Edward and Sophie. My guess is that if Charles, for whatever reason, decides to withhold the Dukedom of Edinburgh from Edward during his reign, William will, if its available to be given.

The only thing that would prevent that is if Charles bestowed a new creation on Harry, George, Louis or Archie. I can't see him giving it to Harry or Archie, and it's entirely possible that Louis won't get married until William's reign, but I could see Charles giving it to George knowing that it would eventually merge back with the Crown again.
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  #679  
Old 07-14-2021, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
That's my thought as well. It's pretty clear that William and Kate have a good relationship with Edward and Sophie. My guess is that if Charles, for whatever reason, decides to withhold the Dukedom of Edinburgh from Edward during his reign, William will, if its available to be given.

The only thing that would prevent that is if Charles bestowed a new creation on Harry, George, Louis or Archie. I can't see him giving it to Harry or Archie, and it's entirely possible that Louis won't get married until William's reign, but I could see Charles giving it to George knowing that it would eventually merge back with the Crown again.

The Royal House will have to think if it is desireable to have hereditary royal dukes without any role in the Royal House. It will largely depend on how the new King and/or his successor see the organization of a future Royal House in their Reign.

HRH The Duke of York
The current royal Duke (Prince Andrew) has no royal function

HRH The Duke of Sussex
The current royal Duke (Prince Harry) has no royal function
The next royal Duke (the future Prince Archie) will not have a royal function

HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (if Edward gets this)
The next royal Duke (Prince James) will not have a royal function

HRH The Duke of Kent
After the current royal Duke (Prince Edward) Kent ceases to be one of the royal dukedoms

HRH The Duke of Gloucester
After the current royal Duke (Prince Richard) Gloucester ceases to be one of the royal dukedoms
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  #680  
Old 07-14-2021, 05:22 AM
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if any of this is to be believed - and I am not saying that it is - it appears to be coming from the modernization of the Monarchy and Charles' reign taskforce. Lets be honest - this is not going to be anywhere on the top 20 things to come out of that , when we actually get the lay of the land.
I might seem like a slight and as a breaking of a promise, but Ed and Sophie appear to know their role in the scheme of things and will probably brush it off.
Change has to beginning somewhere.
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