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  #581  
Old 03-20-2021, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
But these marriages were made by the ruler of an independant state in the beginning and these marriage did not need an okay by the British monarch. I know Ernst August of Hanover asked for permission but I always thought that a bit strange, to be honest. Did his sons do the same?
No his sons didn't because they didn't need to under the new Succession to the Crown act of 2013. They both married in 2017.

I assume Prince Ernst August did because he wanted to remain officially in the Succession to the British throne. His marriage would be considered perfectly legitimate for any other purpose except the succession even if he hadn't.
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  #582  
Old 03-20-2021, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
I assume Prince Ernst August did because he wanted to remain officially in the Succession to the British throne. His marriage would be considered perfectly legitimate for any other purpose except the succession even if he hadn't.
The House of Hannover, like so many German noble families, had property in the German East, which became Russia, Poland and East-German-communist after the world war 2.

The Restitution is much easier, if one can claim to be British! So...

It is the same case somewhat for the House of Liechtenstein and the Czechs. Until today the Czechs do not recognize Liechstenstein, but treat the House of Liechtenstein as Germans, so, that they don't have to give back the vast riches of the Liechstensteins confiscated under the communist Benesch-regime.
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  #583  
Old 03-20-2021, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
No his sons didn't because they didn't need to under the new Succession to the Crown act of 2013. They both married in 2017.

I assume Prince Ernst August did because he wanted to remain officially in the Succession to the British throne. His marriage would be considered perfectly legitimate for any other purpose except the succession even if he hadn't.
Unfortunately, that wasn't true prior to 2015 (when the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 repealed the Royal Marriages Act).

His marriage would have been considered illegitimate, i.e. nonexistent, for all purposes under British law if he had not received permission to marry from the British Queen.

That no descendant of the body of his late majesty King George the Second, male or female, (other than the issue of princesses who have married, or may hereafter marry, into foreign families) shall be capable of contracting matrimony without the previous consent of his Majesty, his heirs, or successors, signified under the great seal, and declared in council, (which consent, to preserve the memory thereof is hereby directed to be set out in the licence and register of marriage, and to be entered in the books of the privy council); and that every marriage, or matrimonial contract, of any such descendant, without such consent first had and obtained, shall be null and void, to all intents and purposes whatsoever.

https://www.heraldica.org/faqs/rma1772.html

Note that not every foreigner was exempted from the requirement - only the issue of princesses who married into foreign families.


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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Parallely to the laws creating the House of Windsor and depriving the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha family of their titles because the head of the house had supported Germany in the war, the Landtag (parliament) of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha made any member of the house who did not support Germany losing their German titles. [...] So I think it can be argued that the family was indeed unaware the Royal Marriages Act still applied to them.
I agree that argument could be made. That's why I say Albany "may" be available: It would need to be determined by the appropriate legal authorities whether the "unaware" exemption applied to them.
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  #584  
Old 03-20-2021, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Unfortunately, that wasn't true prior to 2015 (when the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 repealed the Royal Marriages Act).

His marriage would have been considered illegitimate, i.e. nonexistent, for all purposes under British law if he had not received permission to marry from the British Queen.

That no descendant of the body of his late majesty King George the Second, male or female, (other than the issue of princesses who have married, or may hereafter marry, into foreign families) shall be capable of contracting matrimony without the previous consent of his Majesty, his heirs, or successors, signified under the great seal, and declared in council, (which consent, to preserve the memory thereof is hereby directed to be set out in the licence and register of marriage, and to be entered in the books of the privy council); and that every marriage, or matrimonial contract, of any such descendant, without such consent first had and obtained, shall be null and void, to all intents and purposes whatsoever.

https://www.heraldica.org/faqs/rma1772.html
But it would have been considered legitimate in Germany or Monaco.

And to be honest I doubt even if a couple who were descendants of George II who were German by birth but were living in the UK would have officials saying "hang on this marriage certificate isn't valid in the UK because the Queen didn't give permission for your marriage." if asked to provide the documents for some reason.
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  #585  
Old 03-20-2021, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
But it would have been considered legitimate in Germany or Monaco.
Yes, I referred to "under British law" in my last post. It would have been considered legitimate in Germany or Monaco simply because British law does not apply to Germany or Monaco.


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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
And to be honest I doubt even if a couple who were descendants of George II who were German by birth but were living in the UK would have officials saying "hang on this marriage certificate isn't valid in the UK because the Queen didn't give permission for your marriage." if asked to provide the documents for some reason.
I agree with you that it would probably not occur to officials processing tax returns or similar to verify whether a couple's marriage was legally valid. Still, the reality would remain that the marriage was invalid in UK law, and anyone who wished to take legal action on that basis would have that option. (For example, if the couple separated, I suppose one of them could refuse to pay maintenance ordered by a UK divorce court by pointing out that under UK law, they were never legally married.)

On that note, the Succession to the Crown Act did not legalize a marriage which was invalid under the Royal Marriages Act if someone already took action on the basis that the marriage was invalid.

(5) A void marriage under that Act is to be treated as never having been void if—

(a) neither party to the marriage was one of the 6 persons next in the line of succession to the Crown at the time of the marriage,

(b) no consent was sought under section 1 of that Act, or notice given under section 2 of that Act, in respect of the marriage,

(c) in all the circumstances it was reasonable for the person concerned not to have been aware at the time of the marriage that the Act applied to it, and

(d) no person acted, before the coming into force of this section, on the basis that the marriage was void.

(6) Subsection (5) applies for all purposes except those relating to the succession to the Crown.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/20/enacted
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  #586  
Old 03-20-2021, 12:43 PM
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I hadn't realized that The Dukedom of Sussex was only used once in the past prior to 2018 and went extinct upon the death of Prince Augustus Frederick in 1843.

That was a long time to stay dormant.
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  #587  
Old 03-23-2021, 05:49 PM
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When Prince William is The Prince of Wales and is Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge, is the title of Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge considered a joint title?
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  #588  
Old 03-23-2021, 06:40 PM
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I'm no expert, but my limited understanding is that the Dukedoms will not be joint, though William will be both the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Cambridge when Charles is King.

My very basic understanding is that for titles to be joint, they are granted together. For example, there is a joint title with the Prince of Wales, the Earl of Chester.

However, when the Queen passes away and Charles becomes King, William will automatically be styled as "His Royal Highness The Prince William, Duke Of Cornwall and Cambridge . . . " rather than "Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Cambridge." Stylistically, the Dukedoms would appear joint. (if that makes sense?)

(If William died before becoming King, George would become the Duke of Cambridge, but not the Duke of Cornwall, as he would never be the oldest son of the sovereign, despite being the heir apparent.)

(I could very well be wrong about all of this.)
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  #589  
Old 03-23-2021, 08:38 PM
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Based on the precedence set in 1901 you are perfectly correct. For most of that year George V was known as The Duke of Cornwall and York.
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  #590  
Old 03-24-2021, 02:17 PM
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Yes indeed. There's also examples in the peerage such as the Duke of Richmond & Gordon.
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  #591  
Old 03-24-2021, 05:17 PM
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BriarRose, It does make sense that that you excellently explained that the two Dukedoms: Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Cambridge, would appear joint as Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge.
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  #592  
Old 04-09-2021, 07:33 AM
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Now that Charles is the new Duke of Edinburgh, will he have to wait until he is king to pass the title onto Edward?
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  #593  
Old 04-09-2021, 07:37 AM
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With the sad passing today of HRH The Prince Philip at the age of 99, the Prince of Wales has now succeeded to the ranks and titles of Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich.
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  #594  
Old 04-09-2021, 07:56 AM
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Yes. When Charles becomes King, the title Duke of Edinburgh returns to the Crown to be recreated again. This is when Edward would be created the new Duke of Edinburgh according to his parent's wishes.
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  #595  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Now that Charles is the new Duke of Edinburgh, will he have to wait until he is king to pass the title onto Edward?
Charles inherits all of Philip's titles - Edinburgh, Merioneth and Greenwich.

They won't be used by Charles as he has more senior titles to use but like Chester or Carrick they are now Charles'.

He does inherit them but I don't expect him to use him. He may decide, to honour his father, by asking The Queen, if when using Cornwall and/or Rothesay he can use the joint title of 'Cornwall and Edinburgh' or 'Rothesay and Edinburgh'. I doubt that he would be he might ask to do so.
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  #596  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:34 AM
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Curious if for the Earl of Wessex's birthday next March, we see him given the title of Duke of Edinburgh?
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  #597  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke_of_Berkshire View Post
Curious if for the Earl of Wessex's birthday next March, we see him given the title of Duke of Edinburgh?
Unless the Queen herself dies before next March, that isn't gonna happen. The plan was always for him to receive the dukedom once it reverts to the Crown and it doesn't revert to the Crown until Charles ascends the throne.
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  #598  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke_of_Berkshire View Post
Curious if for the Earl of Wessex's birthday next March, we see him given the title of Duke of Edinburgh?
The title, Duke of Edinburgh, has passed to his eldest son, Charles. It will remain that way until it reverts to the Crown when Charles becomes King. Then, Charles can create Edward as the Duke of Edinburgh according to his parent's wishes.
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  #599  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke_of_Berkshire View Post
Curious if for the Earl of Wessex's birthday next March, we see him given the title of Duke of Edinburgh?
He can’t (unless The Queen dies before then) - the title is automatically inherited by Charles and now needs to wait until he becomes King and it can be recreated for Edward.
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  #600  
Old 04-09-2021, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke_of_Berkshire View Post
Curious if for the Earl of Wessex's birthday next March, we see him given the title of Duke of Edinburgh?
No. That title has passed to Charles.

The Letters Patent that created the Edinburgh title for Philip had the normal remainder - heirs male of the body lawfully begotten.

The announcement in 1999 was that when both the Queen and Philip have died the title would be recreated for Edward. First the title has to merge with the Crown and that won't happen until The Queen dies and Charles becomes King.
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