Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Tatiana Maria]

While succession to British peerages is automatic in principle and by convention the successor begins using his new title after the funeral of his father, the new peer is required to prove his succession and be registered on the Roll of the Peerage before he is permitted to use his new title in legal documents. I am not sure if Charles will go to that trouble as I doubt he will ever have the need to use the Edinburgh title in a legal document.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Could Camilla be now know as Duchess of Cornwall and Edinburgh?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She isn't known as the Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay, and Rothesay is a more historically important title than Edinburgh.

 

[leticia.h]

Now that Charles is the new Duke of Edinburgh, will he have to wait until he is king to pass the title onto Edward?

I didn't know Charles was going to inherit Philip's titles. I thought it was going back to the Crown and the queen would pass it to Edward

 

[RoyalNight]

Curious if for the Earl of Wessex's birthday next March, we see him given the title of Duke of Edinburgh?

Doesn't the title belong to Prince Charles now, as he is the oldest son?

 

[Iluvbertie]

She is known as The Duchess of Cornwall everywhere but in Chester and Scotland. In Scotland she is known as The Duchess of Rothesay and in Chester as the Countess of Chester.

The Cornwall and Rothesay titles are never used together.

It is possible that Charles may ask the Queen if he could use Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh when in Cornwall. If he does, and the Queen gives her consent, then yes Camilla would be able to use Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh everywhere but in Scotland or Chester where she doesn't use Duchess of Cornwall.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Interestingly, the death announcement from the royal court refers to HRH not as His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh but as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

https://www.royal.uk/

I didn't know Charles was going to inherit Philip's titles. I thought it was going back to the Crown and the queen would pass it to Edward

See here for a detailed explanation.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

 

[Iluvbertie]

I didn't know Charles was going to inherit Philip's titles. I thought it was going back to the Crown and the queen would pass it to Edward

When the title was created for Philip the normal remainder was included 'heirs male of the body lawfully begotten'.

When Edward married in 1999 it was announced that the title would be recreated for him after it merged with the Crown after the death of both the Duke and The Queen.

Interestingly, the death announcement from the royal court refers to HRH not as His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh but as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

https://www.royal.uk/

That is his correct title according to the Letters Patent issued in 1957 when The Queen created Philip as The Prince Philip.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She is known as The Duchess of Cornwall everywhere but in Chester and Scotland. In Scotland she is known as The Duchess of Rothesay and in Chester as the Countess of Chester.

The Cornwall and Rothesay titles are never used together.

It is possible that Charles may ask the Queen if he could use Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh when in Cornwall. [...]

Did you mean "when in Edinburgh"?

ETA: Although would it then be The Duke of Rothesay and Edinburgh?

That is his correct title according to the Letters Patent issued in 1957 when The Queen created Philip as The Prince Philip.

But he was usually referred to by the palace as HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[Iluvbertie]

No - I am suggesting that when in Cornwall, when Charles uses the Duke of Cornwall title he uses Cornwall and Edinburgh. He only uses Cornwall when in Cornwall or when attending events for the Duchy of Cornwall.

When in Scotland he would use Rothesay and Edinburgh.

I doubt it would happen but it would be a way to remember Philip for the rest of the Queen's reign.

But he was usually referred to by the palace as HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.

True but his death notice would always have his full title. Prince and Duke.

 

[Mbruno]

While succession to British peerages is automatic in principle and by convention the successor begins using his new title after the funeral of his father, the new peer is required to prove his succession and be registered on the Roll of the Peerage before he is permitted to use his new title in legal documents. I am not sure if Charles will go to that trouble as I doubt he will ever have the need to use the Edinburgh title in a legal document.

Correct, see the link below for the relevant Royal Warrant.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/57314/page/7320

3. Any Peer who is not entered on the Roll shall not:


(a) be entitled to any precedence attaching to his Peerage;

(b) be addressed or referred to by any title attaching to his Peerage .

True but his death notice would always have his full title. Prince and Duke.

I expect the Garter King of Arms to proclaim all his British titles at the funeral as usual for members of the Royal Family. Unfortunately, we probably won't be able to see it.


From the Wikipedia, including Commonwealth orders (I am not sure the order of the post-nominals letters is right):

His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, Baron Greenwich, KG, KT, OM, GCVO, GBE, AK, ONZ, QSO, GCL, CC, CMM, PC, PC, ADC

Note: The two PC's above refer to the Privy Council in the UK and the Queen's Privy Council for Canada.

 

[queen dolly]

another question, will Camillla now be known as the duchess of cornwall and edingbourgh?

 

[Denville]

another question, will Camillla now be known as the duchess of cornwall and edingbourgh?

No, she's teh Duchess of Cornwall....

 

[Iluvbertie]

another question, will Camillla now be known as the duchess of cornwall and edingbourgh?

Probably not.

She would only be known as both if Charles starts to use both when in Cornwall.

 

[Iluvbertie]

One thing that struck me today ... I was watching the Coronation and Philip taking his oath of allegiance to The Queen. There is now only one peer alive who made that oath at her coronation - The Duke of Kent who swore allegiance after his Uncle The Duke of Gloucester who followed The Duke of Edinburgh. The Duke of Kent was 17 years old at the time.

 

[cdm]

I noticed that in the announcement of Buckingham Palace Philip was called The Prince Philip.
Why and when is ‘The’ used before ‘Prince(ss)’?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I noticed that in the announcement of Buckingham Palace Philip was called The Prince Philip.
Why and when is ‘The’ used before ‘Prince(ss)’?

Queen Elizabeth II has reserved it for her husband and children, but in the past it was used indiscriminately albeit not very consistently for all princes and princesses.

 

[Prinsara]

I noticed that in the announcement of Buckingham Palace Philip was called The Prince Philip.
Why and when is ‘The’ used before ‘Prince(ss)’?

Usually as the child of the Sovereign. The Queen made an exception for Philip. I don't know how widely it was used more than a few generations ago.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The College of Arms:


The Titles of HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

The Duke of Edinburgh was granted the style and title of Royal Highness on 19 November 1947; on the next day, 20 November, he was created Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich, of Greenwich in the County of London.

These peerages are hereditary and on the death of His Royal Highness have passed to his eldest son, HRH The Prince of Wales. In the event of the Prince of Wales or any subsequent holder of these titles succeeding to the Crown, these titles and all others held will merge with the Crown.

His Royal Highness was made a Prince of the United Kingdom by Letters Patent of the present Queen dated 22 February 1957. A declaration of the same date communicated Her Majesty’s will and pleasure that her husband be known as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

His Royal Highness’s style and titles will be declared at his funeral by Garter Principal King of Arms, in accordance with custom.

HRH The Duke of Edinburgh - College of Arms

His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh KG KT OM GCVO GBE 10 June 1921 - 9 April 2021 Funeral Arrangements It has been announced by Buckingham Palace that the funeral of His Royal Highness will take place in St George’s Chapel, Windsor Castle, at 15:00 on Saturday...

www.college-of-arms.gov.uk

 

[Mbruno]

I checked the Roll of the Peerage today at the site of the College of Arms and Prince Phiiip apparently is still listed as Duke of Edinburgh.


In theory, under the Royal Warrant of 2004, successors to a peerage must petition the Lord Chancellor to be included in the roll presenting proof of succession. I don't think that will be a problem for the PoW thoigh and I suggest we keep monitoring the roll for updates.


https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/images/downloads/Roll_of_the_Peerage.pdf

 

[Mbruno]

Interestingly, the death announcement from the royal court refers to HRH not as His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh but as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

https://www.royal.uk/

That is consistent with the Queen's declaration of February 1957 :

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 22 FEBRUARY, 19571209

Whitehall, February 22, 1957.
The Q'UEBN has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm bearing date 22nd February, 1957, to give and grant unto His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, K.G., K.T., G.B.E., the style and titular dignity of a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NorthernIreland.



Whitehall, February 22, 1957.
The QUEEN has been pleased to declare her will and pleasure that His 'Royal Highness the Dukeof Edinburgh shall henceforth be known as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I checked the Roll of the Peerage today at the site of the College of Arms and Prince Phiiip apparently is still listed as Duke of Edinburgh.


In theory, under the Royal Warrant of 2004, successors to a peerage must petition the Lord Chancellor to be included in the roll presenting proof of succession. I don't think that will be a problem for the PoW thoigh and I suggest we keep monitoring the roll for updates.


https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/images/downloads/Roll_of_the_Peerage.pdf

It will take weeks, if not months, for this to be dealt with. It isn't something that has to be done all that fast. It is the paperwork to confirm what is already quite clear.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Queen Elizabeth II has reserved it for her husband and children, but in the past it was used indiscriminately albeit not very consistently for all princes and princesses.

Correction: Having checked the London Gazette, Queen Elizabeth II also sometimes used "The" for her cousin(s) in the early years of her reign.



The official announcement in 1999 in regard to the dukedom of Edinburgh:

https://web.archive.org/web/2014020...ews/title_of_hrh_the_prince_edward/40309.html

Title of HRH The Prince Edward

The Queen has today been pleased to confer an Earldom on The Prince Edward. His titles will be Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. The Prince Edward thus becomes His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex and Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones on marriage will become Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex.

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen has also decided, with the agreement of The Prince Edward and Miss Rhys-Jones, that any children they might have should not be given the style His or Her Royal Highness, but would have courtesy titles as sons or daughters of an Earl.​

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The College of Arms:


The Titles of HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

The Duke of Edinburgh was granted the style and title of Royal Highness on 19 November 1947; on the next day, 20 November, he was created Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich, of Greenwich in the County of London.

These peerages are hereditary and on the death of His Royal Highness have passed to his eldest son, HRH The Prince of Wales. In the event of the Prince of Wales or any subsequent holder of these titles succeeding to the Crown, these titles and all others held will merge with the Crown.

His Royal Highness was made a Prince of the United Kingdom by Letters Patent of the present Queen dated 22 February 1957. A declaration of the same date communicated Her Majesty’s will and pleasure that her husband be known as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

His Royal Highness’s style and titles will be declared at his funeral by Garter Principal King of Arms, in accordance with custom.

https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/news/item/187-hrh-the-duke-of-edinburgh

Why is it that the men in the British royal family are granted subsidiary peerages even if it is plainly apparent that the subsidiary peerages will never be used? In Philip's case, for example, it was expected that his future eldest son, and the future eldest son of his eldest son, would be royal princes and subsequently kings (I am aware that the Letters Patent were not issued until Elizabeth's pregnancy, but I presume it was always planned), and thus would never use Earl of Merioneth and Lord Greenwich in the fashion of heirs apparent of nonroyal dukes.

 

[Iluvbertie]

In Philip's case that is true but with other royal dukedoms those secondary titles are used e.g. The Duke of Gloucester's son uses Earl of Ulster and his grandson Baron/Lord Culloden while The Duke of Kent's son uses Earl of St Andrew's and grandson Baron/Lord Downpatrick.

Archie could be using Earl Dumbarton but his parents have said 'no' at the moment.

I suppose there was some theory whereby Edinburgh might end up with someone other than the future monarch e.g. if William and George die before The Queen and Charles then Charlotte becomes Queen but Louis inherits Edinburgh and Cambridge. As Louis' son wouldn't then be a male-line grandchild of a monarch that son would use Earl of Merioneth (it is senior to William's Earl of Strathearn) ... dealing with theoretical possibilities is something that monarchs deal with.

 

[Prinsara]

Isn't it just tradition and grander the more you add on? If there were no subsidiary titles when other people have them it would look like a slight.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Why is it that the men in the British royal family are granted subsidiary peerages even if it is plainly apparent that the subsidiary peerages will never be used? [...]

In Philip's case that is true but with other royal dukedoms those secondary titles are used [...]

There have been cases other than Philip's: the current Duke of Cambridge for one (he was granted an earldom and barony together with his dukedom in 2011), King George V for another (as the eldest surviving son of the Prince of Wales, he was granted the Dukedom of York together with an earldom and barony in 1892). Their senior heirs male would likewise have been expected to remain princes/kings throughout their lives, with no need to use the secondary peerages.

I suppose there was some theory whereby Edinburgh might end up with someone other than the future monarch e.g. if William and George die before The Queen and Charles then Charlotte becomes Queen but Louis inherits Edinburgh and Cambridge. As Louis' son wouldn't then be a male-line grandchild of a monarch that son would use Earl of Merioneth (it is senior to William's Earl of Strathearn) ... dealing with theoretical possibilities is something that monarchs deal with.

That particular situation wouldn't have been possible at the time the dukedom of Edinburgh was granted since sons took priority over daughters in the succession to the crown, but a similar situation could have occurred had Charles predeceased Philip leaving a daughter. In that scenario, Charles's daughter would have become Queen while Andrew would have become Duke of Edinburgh.

Still, such situations are much less likely than other situations which British monarchs have chosen not to deal with in advance.

Isn't it just tradition and grander the more you add on? If there were no subsidiary titles when other people have them it would look like a slight.

Yes, that might be. In the same vein, I wonder if for example some residents of England would have objected to Philip having no references to England in his peerages.

 

[Iluvbertie]

That particular situation wouldn't have been possible at the time the dukedom of Edinburgh was granted since sons took priority over daughters in the succession to the crown, but a similar situation could have occurred had Charles predeceased Philip leaving a daughter. In that scenario, Charles's daughter would have become Queen while Andrew would have become Duke of Edinburgh.

That is the exact scenario that I was envisaging - where the heir apparent was female with a younger brother to inherit.

George VI was aware enough of history to know that not everything goes directly as planned so the idea that a grandson could have a daughter as their only child and then die allowing for a younger brother to inherit Philip's titles was one he possibly realised was possible.

George VI knew, for instance, that Queen Victoria's father left only one daughter. Of course the Kent title couldn't pass to anyone at that point but move it on a generation and that then does become possible.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Queen Victoria's son Prince Alfred became The Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha on August 23, 1893. Did he have to sign legal paper work that he would no longer be The Duke of Edinburgh?

 

[Iluvbertie]

No.

He was still the Duke of Edinburgh.

Until 1963 it wasn't possible for a British peer to even disclaim a peerage. After 1963 a person could disclaim an inherited title which meant they wouldn't take up the peerage title but would still in reality hold it and their heir would still inherit it. That had to be done within one year of inheriting the title. It has never been possible, in the UK, for a peer to simply renounce their peerage.

Only an Act of Parliament can remove a British peerage title and none was passed to strip Alfred of his British titles.

It was not unusual for a foreigner to hold both a British title AND a foreign one e.g. The Dukes of Cumberland who were also Kings of Hanover from 1837 to 1866 (when the kingdom of Hanover was annexed by Prussia).

Another example is Alfred's successor as Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha who also held the title Duke of Albany inherited from his father Prince Leopold.

It is interesting to think that if Alfred's son had lived to 1917, and had a male heir, in all likelihood Edinburgh would have been a title not available as in 1917 the Titles Deprivation Act deprived the titles of Duke of Cumberland and Duke of Albany from their then holders but left their descendants with the rights to petition the British parliament to have the titles restored. Had Alfred had a son alive in 1917 no doubt it would have been the Edinburgh title so deprived rather than Albany and the title Albany would now be a peerage that had lost its royal association as Gloucester and Kent will do in the next generation.