Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles 1: Ending 2022

[HM Queen Catherine]

No. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh will retain his ducal title until he takes his last breath. He is also a Prince of the United Kingdom (created in 1957), and will remain a prince as long as he lives.

If the Queen dies before he does, he will not lose any of the titles he now holds.. but Charles will become king upon the death of his mother.

If events unfold this way, then as soon as Prince Philip dies the ducal title of Edinburgh will merge with the crown (because Charles is his eldest son and heir and will have already ascended the throne).

At that point, it is the intention and wish of the Queen and Prince Philip, that Charles (as King) will regrant the title to his brother, Prince Edward.. making him the new Duke of Edinburgh.

If however, Prince Philip dies before the Queen, then Charles (still as Prince of Wales) will inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh, the earldom of Merioneth and the barony of Greenwich. In this case, he will be the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (of the 4th Creation), following his father.

Again, upon the death of the Queen, all of Charles' titles will merge with the crown when he succeeds to the throne.

When that happens, the title will be available again for regrant to Prince Edward.. and he will be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh (of the 5th Creation). I am assuming here that Edward would retain his title Earl of Wessex, and that the earldom of Merioneth and the barony of Greenwich may not be included in his ducal creation.. but one never knows - he may get those titles in addition to Wessex and Severn - or give up his current titles entirely.. for that we will have to wait and see.

I believe the intention has always been that Prince Philip's title is left as a lasting legacy within the family. Charles would not be able to hold the title for very long, as it will merge with the crown when he is king (William is now Duke of Cambridge and his situation will be the same as Charles' and Harry presumably will receive a royal dukedom in due course).. Andrew has no sons to carry on the title.. and so it will fall to Edward, who has a son to inherit after him..

Though Edward's children are entitled to HRH, his grandchildren will not be.. so his family is actually best suited to found a lasting ducal line.

 

[Daphoenyx]

When that happens, the title will be available again for regrant to Prince Edward.. and he will be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh (of the 5th Creation).

I'm sorry, I don't understand this... Why 1st Duke, of the 5th Creation? Why not 2nd Duke? And what are the "creations"?

 

[Iluvbertie]

I'm sorry, I don't understand this... Why 1st Duke, of the 5th Creation? Why not 2nd Duke? And what are the "creations"?

When a new title is given out e.g. William becoming Duke of Cambridge on 29th April this year the technical term is 'created'.

As William didn't inherit this title directly from an ancestor who held the title Duke of Cambridge he is the 1st Duke of the current creation, which is actually the 5th creation of this title. This means that 4 times in the past the title was given to someone and then it has become extinct. So William is the 1st Duke of the 5th creation.

With Philip - he is the 1st Duke of 3rd creation (Wikipedia doesn't include the son of George III who was Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh in its calculations of creations). Edward would thus be the 1st Duke of the 4th creation (unless he inherited it directly which is possible but highly unlikely). If Charles inherits it during the present reign i.e. Philip dies before the Queen then Charles will be the 2nd Duke of the 3rd creation.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Iluvbertie is right about the number of creations for the dukedom of Edinburgh.. I normally don't count the Gloucester and Edinburgh creation either, but I didn't have my database notations open when I wrote the reply.

There have only been three creations of the title "Duke of Edinburgh" - Prince Philip being the 3rd Creation - so Prince Edward will be the 4th.

 

[Renata4711]

I have to confess that my eyes glazed over whilst reading about "creations"
But my question is: what is the correct verb in these transactions - is it "confer" or "create" or what ?

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

I have to confess that my eyes glazed over whilst reading about "creations"
But my question is: what is the correct verb in these transactions - is it "confer" or "create" or what ?

The correct word is Create.

 

[Daphoenyx]

Thanks Iluvbertie for the explanation! Now it's all clear to me

 

[Britters]

I'm not sure if this has been asked or discussed and as I'm on my phone it would take me ages to go through the whole thread so forgive me if it has...

Do Dukedoms have any order of precedence? If P. Phillip and P. Charles die, and P. William becomes Duke of Edinburgh is it a higher title, or is it equal to that of Duke of Cambridge? (I'm fairly sure I already know the answer I just want to verify).

Also when P. Charles ascends the throne and P. William is made the Prince of Wales (I'm assuming, based on tradition, this will happen. I am aware it's not an inheritable title, so I'm making the assumption that he will be made PoW), do we think he and Catherine will be known by those titles, or stick with being "The Cambridges'," as that's who they've been since marriage as how their children will be recognized? Or will they all switch (children included) to being "the Wales',"?

Hopefully that makes sense...

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

Until they are created Prince of Wales, they will be known as Dukes of Cambridge and Cornwall, after the creation they will use the Wales title, because PoW is superior. e.g. George V.
George V - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sister Morphine]

Dukedoms do have an order of precedence, yes. When Philip dies, his dukedom passes to Charles. Charles would then be the Duke of Edinburgh, along with all his other titles. When Charles dies, the title merges with the crown to be re-created for another person. It is expected that Charles will create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh for the current Earl of Wessex. Now, if Philip and Charles die before the Queen does, William becomes the Duke of Edinburgh as the oldest male inheritor. He would then be the Duke of Edinburgh and Cambridge. I believe as the current Duke of Edinburgh is the consort of the Queen, if William were to inherit the title, it would take precedence over his current dukedom. So, he and Catherine would be the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh and Cambridge, until such a time as the Queen creates William Prince of Wales. Once William is King, all his titles merge with the crown, and then he'd re-create the dukedom for his uncle.

To answer your question about what William and Catherine would be called after Charles takes the throne, the press would probably still call them the Cambridges until William is created Prince of Wales, at which point they'd be the Wales', just like his parents were.

Until they are created Prince of Wales, they will be known as Dukes of Cambridge and Cornwall, after the creation they will use the Wales title, because PoW is superior. e.g. George V.
George V - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually, they'd be the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge, with Cornwall coming first as Duke of Cornwall is the title of heir to the throne. George V wasn't the Duke of York and Cornwall, he was the Duke of Cornwall and York.

 

[Kataryn]

Somehow I find it unjust that Edward should become Duke of Edinburgh after his parents' demise. He has so far shown not much interest in Scotland. I personally would prefer it if Charles created a new dukedom for his little brother and granted Edinburgh to his sister in her own right. The Princess Royal would make a wonderful Duchess of Edinburgh! It seems unfair that Louis Mountbatten's daughter could inherit her father's title but Philip Mountbatten's daughter can't.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Somehow I find it unjust that Edward should become Duke of Edinburgh after his parents' demise. He has so far shown not much interest in Scotland. I personally would prefer it if Charles created a new dukedom for his little brother and granted Edinburgh to his sister in her own right. The Princess Royal would make a wonderful Duchess of Edinburgh! It seems unfair that Louis Mountbatten's daughter could inherit her father's title but Philip Mountbatten's daughter can't.

Different circumstances. Edward deserves that title, and exactly what has the current Duke done for Edinburgh?

 

[Kataryn]

Different circumstances. Edward deserves that title, and exactly what has the current Duke done for Edinburgh?

Why do you think Edward deserves the title and not Anne? Charles as the eldest cannot hold the title once he is king, but why should it not go to the next sibling, when she is so much more attached to Scotland than her youngest brother?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Why do you think Edward deserves the title and not Anne? Charles as the eldest cannot hold the title once he is king, but why should it not go to the next sibling, when she is so much more attached to Scotland than her youngest brother?

Never said Anne didn't deserve it, but for all the work that Edward has done in connection with that title he deserves it. Like I asked, why does it have to go with who has a greater connection? Philip had and still hasn't got a connection to Edinburgh it was just the title he was given.

 

[cepe]

I think a key matter in the decision regarding Edward becoming Duke of Edinburgh is continuity. h. A previous contributor mentioned legacy and I think this is important to a man who gave up so much, including not passing his name on to his children. Anne has refused titles for her family through her decision at the time of her wedding so I don't believe it would be of interest. Her hard work has been rewarded through being given the title of Princess Royal, Order of the Garter, Thistle etc.

 

[Osipi]

Maybe its my imagination but I did do a little digging on this one (I don't trust Wiki solely because we all know that sometimes its as trustworthy as the Daily Mail)

I was under the belief that when Edward married it was announced that in the future, the plan was to create him the Duke of Edinburgh for his support he has done over the years with the Duke of Edinburgh Award. IIRC, this is one of the DoE's main patronages and if he is going to be slowing down more and more, I expect Edward will come more to the forefront with activities surrounding this award.

 

[Artemisia]

Maybe its my imagination but I did do a little digging on this one (I don't trust Wiki solely because we all know that sometimes its as trustworthy as the Daily Mail)

I was under the belief that when Edward married it was announced that in the future, the plan was to create him the Duke of Edinburgh for his support he has done over the years with the Duke of Edinburgh Award. IIRC, this is one of the DoE's main patronages and if he is going to be slowing down more and more, I expect Edward will come more to the forefront with activities surrounding this award.

The announcement the Duke of Edinburgh title will eventually go to Prince Edward was indeed made at the time of his wedding.
How that will happen is an entirely different question; I suggest you to have a look at this thread.

Like you, I also always thought Prince Edward and Sophie's strong involvement in the Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme had to with the fact that particular title will eventually be his.

 

[Osipi]

The announcement the Duke of Edinburgh title will eventually go to Prince Edward was indeed made at the time of his wedding.
How that will happen is an entirely different question; I suggest you to have a look at this thread.

Like you, I also always thought Prince Edward and Sophie's strong involvement in the Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme had to with the fact that particular title will eventually be his.

I was merely stating why I believed he would be created the Duke of Edinburgh when the time comes. I gives credence to why it would go to Edward rather than someone else in the family.

 

[Artemisia]

I was merely stating why I believed he would be created the Duke of Edinburgh when the time comes. I gives credence to why it would go to Edward rather than someone else in the family.

I should have read more carefully.
As I already said in the second part of my post, I agree with your reasoning.

 

[Queen Penelope]

IIRC Prince Edward has done lots of work on behalf of the DoE Awards Scheme for years prior to his wedding - my first recollection is from the much maligned "It's a Royal Knockout" that he, Anne, Andrew and Sarah were apart of that Edward had a hand in bringing about.

 

[Osipi]

IIRC Prince Edward has done lots of work on behalf of the DoE Awards Scheme for years prior to his wedding - my first recollection is from the much maligned "It's a Royal Knockout" that he, Anne, Andrew and Sarah were apart of that Edward had a hand in bringing about.

Edward also participated in the Gold Award too.

From the British Monarchy website:

Prince Edward started his Gold Award while at Gordonstoun School and completed it at Cambridge University. His expedition component involved planning and executing, with a group, a 60-mile, four-day trek from Blair Atholl to Tomintoul through the Cairngorms. Like all Award expeditions, it was supervised but unaccompanied.

 

[Kataryn]

I know about the DoE-Awards scheme and what Edward does for it. Still I don't see the need for Edward to become the next DoE - as eg The Duke of Suffolk he could as well chair the DoE-Awards in honour of his father.

But I don't know how much times have changed within Royal circles. Yes, Anne did not want a noble title for her husband but then I wasn't thinking about that but about a title for herself. A real one, not just a flimsy girlish thing like Princess Royal. When it is decided that William and Catherine's firstborn will be king or queen, no matter what the gender - isn't that the right time to give a Royal peerage to a princess who has done so much for her country? A peerage her older brother can't hold himself, but she can? Why bypass her for her younger brother? Because she is "only" a woman?
I would like Charles to decide against his parents wish and go for Anne!

 

[Lumutqueen]

He can't go for Anne without issuing entirely new LPs. And exactly why should Edward be deprived of a title he's been promised for years? On another note, the guy isn't going to be given a title in replace of Edinburgh eg, Suffolk. The Princess Royal title is not girly, it's well deserved and a true honour for Anne to hold.
If people had their way Anne would be Queen, when Charles deserves it much more.

 

[Kataryn]

He can't go for Anne without issuing entirely new LPs. And exactly why should Edward be deprived of a title he's been promised for years? On another note, the guy isn't going to be given a title in replace of Edinburgh eg, Suffolk. The Princess Royal title is not girly, it's well deserved and a true honour for Anne to hold.
If people had their way Anne would be Queen, when Charles deserves it much more.

He need to issue new LP for a new creation of the Edinburgh-title anyway. And why should not Prince Philip's first grandson inherit his title after his mother?
I don't think people would want Anne to become the next souverain, she is after all younger than Charles. Even if they are for gender equality, Charles still is the firstborn. Bit if Charles recreates the Edinburgh-title after his ascension and his father's death (whatever comes last), why not for the next sibling in the order of age?

 

[NGalitzine]

He need to issue new LP for a new creation of the Edinburgh-title anyway. And why should not Prince Philip's first grandson inherit his title after his mother?
I don't think people would want Anne to become the next souverain, she is after all younger than Charles. Even if they are for gender equality, Charles still is the firstborn. Bit if Charles recreates the Edinburgh-title after his ascension and his father's death (whatever comes last), why not for the next sibling in the order of age?

Why go back on what had already been announced? Why put the new King Charles III in the position of denying what had already been promised and being seen to publically ignore his parents wishes? That would not be the best way to start off the new reign. Why grant a hereditary peerage to The Princess Royal when she had already stated her wish for her own children to be titleless private citizens?

 

[Osipi]

Bit if Charles recreates the Edinburgh-title after his ascension and his father's death (whatever comes last), why not for the next sibling in the order of age?

After watching Charles' tribute to his mother, it is very plain to see that he loves and honors both of his parents. I have no doubt in my mind that he will create the title Duke of Edinburgh for Edward solely for the reason that it is his parent's wish that it happen this way.

 

[cepe]

I know about the DoE-Awards scheme and what Edward does for it. Still I don't see the need for Edward to become the next DoE - as eg The Duke of Suffolk he could as well chair the DoE-Awards in honour of his father.

But I don't know how much times have changed within Royal circles. Yes, Anne did not want a noble title for her husband but then I wasn't thinking about that but about a title for herself. A real one, not just a flimsy girlish thing like Princess Royal. When it is decided that William and Catherine's firstborn will be king or queen, no matter what the gender - isn't that the right time to give a Royal peerage to a princess who has done so much for her country? A peerage her older brother can't hold himself, but she can? Why bypass her for her younger brother? Because she is "only" a woman?
I would like Charles to decide against his parents wish and go for Anne!

It is not a flimsy girlish thing - it is not automatic and only the Sovereign can award it. Princess Anne is very proud of receiving this title which has high status in the Royal Family.

And there is certainly nothing flimsy or girlish about the Princess and if she wanted a title, she would ask and, I think, get it. But she wouldn't want either her parents or Prince Charles to break a promise

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

The title of Princess Royal is one of the least flimsy titles I know, in fact I'd rather be made the Princess Royal than given any kind of dukedom. It's a very big honour.

 

[Jenafran]

Did I read somewhere recently that Princess Anne turned down her own duchy?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Did I read somewhere recently that Princess Anne turned down her own duchy?

Unless it was some very far out magazine, I haven't heard the story. Anne has never been offered one, and Mark was offered an Earldom which he turned down.