Remembrance Day Services 1: 2003-2021

[alicia]

That it is & speaking of gardens, does anyone know what, other than the Poppy, the other flowers in the border around the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior were tonight? I remember the Vigil Camilla attended to mark the 100th Anniversary of the start of the War, there was a similar looking one at that night's Service. IIRC, there were Poppies, the four floral emblems of the UK & the floral emblems of the Commonwealth Countries. I thought that was such a lovely way to include/honour those who fell for then King & Empire & it's wonderful to see it looks to have been repeated for tonight's Service as well.

I'd like to say Thank You to one & all for sharing clips & links from today & the various Ceremonies. Very much appreciated by this Canadian.

I'd also like to say Thank You to our Aussie & Kiwi Members who, like myself, had Relatives who served in WWI. Tonight a brand new 2 part Documentary called 100 Days To Victory was shown on our History channel. I never knew until tonight just how closely The Canadian Corps & The ANZACS worked & fought together during those final weeks. It was very illuminating to learn about.

So from one Great Niece & Cousin of Canadian WWI Soldiers to our Australian & New Zealand Descendants of ANZAC WWI Soldiers...

Thank You.

As a matter of interest, it is considered that no other country contributed more to support the UK and the Allies than Australia, relative to its population. In 1914, the Australian population was 4.95 million. 416,000 enlisted - all volunteers, there was no conscription. That was 38% of the male population aged between 18-44.

My late father-in-law was a Light Horseman, and took part in the Charge of Beersheba, the last great cavalry charge of history. (1917). A great-Uncle of mine died in the trenches near Flanders, aged 19.

It is right to remember them all.

 

[Nico]

Just discovered that Purple is the color honoring the fallen animals during the War, especially horses !
So the Queen and Camilla were TRULY coordinated last night !

 

[Mbruno]

The Queen had the President of Germany with her - so even higher level than Macron and Merkel as Britain had Germany's Head of State while France had to settle for the Head of Government.

I do wonder how they will top this when they actually reach the 100th anniversary of the end of the war next June.

For those who don't know - the German Home Front basically collapsed. The army was in retreated true but the home front was where the decisions were made to end the war. Britain continued the blockade which was starving Germany until the Peace Treaty - estimates are another million Germans at least died in the months from the armistice to the end of the war due to the blockade. The blockade was there to ensure that the German army weren't able to restock and start fighting again - which they serious discussed when handed the terms of the peace treaty.

The war officially ended on the 28th June, 1919 at the Hall of Mirrors when Germany signed the Treaty of Versailles which set up the situations that lead to WWII (Marshal Foch - the Allied commander in France in WWI took one look at the redrawn map of Europe - put his finger on the 'free' city of Danzig (now Gdansk in Poland) and said 'there is the cause of the next war'. He made that comment in June 1919.

The armistice ended the fighting on the western front but did not end the war.

I understand your PoV, but the ceremony in Paris was by far the most high profile remembrance event of the day as underscored by the presence of the President of the United States and the President of the Russian Federation, in addition to several other major world leaders, including the Prime Minister of Canada, I was greatly surprised that the British government decided to send a low-level cabinet minister to represent the UK in such a major occasion. To me, that highlights the very acrimonous relation that is being built up now between the UK and the EU countries as a result of the tense Brexit negotiations.

 

[Lumutqueen]

To me, that highlights the very acrimonous relation that is being built up now between the UK and the EU countries as a result of the tense Brexit negotiations.

I disagree, as WW1 Commemorations are above politics. I personally had no idea the events in France were taking place, and I still haven’t found out exactly why. Was it simply to mark the end of the war? Anne, Andrew and Edward all attended events in the evening around the UK. Charles was with his mother, that would have left William or Henry to send, and I personally would have had issue with them going to a foreign ceremony instead of Remembrance in the UK.

It’s well known that the UK has several remembrance events annually and the invitation to the German President was announced in good time. If France was more important he would have gone their instead he sent Merkel (and we know how things are going for her right now). Trump wasn’t bothered enough to attend an event on Saturday due to rain and the plane couldn’t fly. With that gaggle, I know where I’d rather have been.

 

[loonytick]

I understand your PoV, but the ceremony in Paris was by far the most high profile remembrance event of the day as underscored by the presence of the President of the United States and the President of the Russian Federation, in addition to several other major world leaders, including the Prime Minister of Canada, I was greatly surprised that the British government decided to send a low-level cabinet minister to represent the UK in such a major occasion. To me, that highlights the very acrimonous relation that is being built up now between the UK and the EU countries as a result of the tense Brexit negotiations.

I agree, although I would have expected Theresa May rather than a royal.

The heads of government of every other nation involved in WWI were there in a show of unity. Every participating nation has its own customary services, of course, but understood that in the 100th anniversary of the Armistice a collective remembrance has special weight beyond internal national customs and ceremonies. Even Trump and Putin managed to be team players (mostly)...but there was no recognizable face from Britain. It was honestly quite shocking to me.

May did go to Belgium and France for smaller wreath-laying ceremonies (she did the equivalent of the event Trump cancelled claiming the weather was too rough), but skipped out on the really big one with her assembled peers.

 

[Lady Reem]

I thought this President is also not married to this specific lady, the Daily Mail said she´s his partner - perhaps she is not "Mrs. Steinmeier". But, oh well, the "Fail".....


By my misinformation you can see how much the average german knows about the private lives of his/ her President or Chancellor: virtually nothing...!


Still I think if a foreign Queen would have accompagnied her monarch husband, she would have stood side by side with the brit. Queen instead the neighbouring balcony!

I agree, it would have been more appropriate for the wife of a fellow Head of State to have been on the same balcony as queenie. And Meghan with Camilla and Kate the same way Sophie has stood with them on the same balcony in previous years. But I guess tq was trying to make a clear ‘statement’ this time around.

 

[wyevale]

According to Cmdr Tim Lawrence, Vice Chairman of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, [and Son-in-Law of HMQ] there has ALWAYS been a 'Gentlemans Agreement' that leaders of the Nations participating in WWI & II, commemorated the conflicts in their OWN Countries, excepting special ceremonies, [such as specific Battles], where commemorations may take place in the actual location.

This was stated in an article he wrote, and was published this week.

M. Macron chose this year to break that arrangement, in his usual self-aggrandising manner, for his 'Peace-conference'...which [in any case] proved quite 'the damp squib'..

Alas I cannot find the relevant article now, which in any case was 'behind a pay-wall', I think it was appeared in either 'the Spectator' of 'the Times'.

Since it was a MAJOR anniversary yesterday I expected [and am pleased] that our Royal Family, and senior politicians chose to commemorate the sacrifice of their compatriots in all parts of this Kingdom, rather than at a shindig ELSEWHERE..

 

[JuliannaVictoria]

International Relations is my forte and this was bad optics on behalf of the British government. Theresa May should have been the representative in France for this momentous occasion. Almost every other Head of Government was there, and she should have been also. The Royal family didn't need to send a rep, and the Firm was solid in their representation throughout the realm. However, the top government exec should have been the one in Paris yesterday.

As we can see, Germany sent it's Head of State in the form of its President to represent Germany who was on par with the Queen who is the Head of State. Theresa May should have gone, plain and simple.

 

[Nico]

These two ceremonies (Paris and London) were perfectly complementary. I really don't see the point to try to set against each other these two beautiful, and moving, events.

Not really in the Remembrance spirit ...

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Here is a thought--if Remembrance Sunday--always a very important event in the UK--had not actually been November 11 this year, perhaps either a Royal and/or the Prime Minister would have attended the commemoration in France, which was held on Armistice Day-November 11.

 

[JR76]

I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

 

[Al_bina]

I understand your PoV, but the ceremony in Paris was by far the most high profile remembrance event of the day as underscored by the presence of the President of the United States and the President of the Russian Federation, in addition to several other major world leaders, including the Prime Minister of Canada, I was greatly surprised that the British government decided to send a low-level cabinet minister to represent the UK in such a major occasion. To me, that highlights the very acrimonous relation that is being built up now between the UK and the EU countries as a result of the tense Brexit negotiations

Right you are. One can assume that the Brexit amplified inherent complexity of relationships between UK and EU.

 

[Muhler]

I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

Considering the sensitivity about the subject of the world wars in Germany, I imagine such commemorations would be considered nationalistic and there is perhaps also a political (and public?) fear that such events would attract nationalists?

 

[wyevale]

don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

WW1 was so eclipsed by the guilt felt for WW11, effectively there are NO ceremonies performed to commemorate the sacrifice of their WWI soldiery, who [whatever we might think], clearly did 'their duty' and what was required of them for their country at that time.

It may be that any official reticence over the first war is strong because to open a debate about remembrance of that first war's military victims is to open a debate about German military victims of the war which followed.

 

[lady of hay]

I understand that the President of Germany was invited to attend in the spirit of reconciliation. I understand that such events do not happen in other parts of Europe I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. I personally commemorate both the Armistice and Remembrance Sunday ,for all who gave their lives.

 

[Pranter]

Hmmm I hadn't thought of the issue with the Germans recognizing the Day there...we are celebrating our Veterans Day here today (although it was officially yesterday 11/11).

Our son is in Germany though...I'm gonna have to ask him if he noticed anything.


LaRae

 

[Stefan]

I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

There is always a Memorial Day which takes place 2 Sundays before the 1. Advent which means it will be onm 18.11 this year. Then there will be an Act in the Bundestag.

 

[wartenberg7]

I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

Those ceremonies we witness every year in Britain would be totally unthinkable and unpopular in Germany. Commemorations like these are only performed by the political class because it´s their duty to remember in a way... Yes, there is a one minute silence in the Bundestag, but that´s a short note in the evening news lasting a few seconds and that´s that.
Honouring the war dead is considered a purely private affair being done in the families.

There is not that support and high regard for the army like in the UK or the US. It is there, that´s ok, but nothing beyond that. The army is something that happens in the news on the telly but nothing of every day public life.


I think if there were these public displays of military commemorations most people would react with a shaking of their head. It would cause many cynical comments about "celebrating and glorifying war"and a "waste" of time and money...!
I also believe that the approach of Britons toward the military, the traditions and love of "pomp and circumstance" is one aspect why so many Germans, which occur to me much more pragmatic and prosaic, consider the british to be rather eccentric and bewildering. Brexit was another proof of this prejudice. That´ s a bit sad if you are someone who is in his heart more british than teutonic...

To be honest, apart from Germany´s highly controversial past, my personal feeling beyond that is that there is also no real interest in commemorating or dealing with this particular subject of the average german people at all.

 

[Kataryn]

I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

I completely agree. Though we do have such a public holiday for that, it's next sunday, Nov. 18th. It's always 2 sundays before the 1. sunday of advent. We call it "Volkstrauertag" - people's grieving day.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[....] I understand that such events do not happen in other parts of Europe [....]

Do Mitterrand and Kohl in Verdun, or do Macron and Merkel in Compiegne ring a bell?

11/11 is a remembrance in all countries which were involved in WWI.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I completely agree. Though we do have such a public holiday for that, it's next sunday, Nov. 18th. It's always 2 sundays before the 1. sunday of advent. We call it "Volkstrauertag" - people's grieving day.

This goes along with what I was saying upthread--except Great Britain's big Remembrance observation is the 2nd Sunday of November-the Sunday closest to November 11. It was just a coincidence of the calendar that the 100th anniversary of the Armistice-Nov 11 was on that Sunday.
I think that may be why Great Britain didn't send anyone to the events in France on this particular day.

 

[Pranter]

I completely agree. Though we do have such a public holiday for that, it's next sunday, Nov. 18th. It's always 2 sundays before the 1. sunday of advent. We call it "Volkstrauertag" - people's grieving day.

Ah that would explain why my son and his wife didn't see anything about it there so far. I'll have to tell them!



LaRae

 

[wartenberg7]

Ah that would explain why my son and his wife didn't see anything about it there so far. I'll have to tell them!
LaRae

Well, he shouldn´t expect very much to happen. It´s just a thing being unnoticed by the majority. For them it´s just an average sunday like others. Politicians will attend some events which will be shown in short news clips on the telly. The average german is just hardly interested in this.

 

[tommy100]

I was initially surprised in a way that no one high profile represented the UK but I do feel its important to place the emphasis on memorials at home, it would have been seen as a snub to those at home if the Queen, Charles or William attended the French events over the London ones, likewise I suspect the plans for Andrew, Anne and Edward to attend events in each of the home nations would have been in place and taken importance over events in France.
Also bear in mind, in the UK Remembrance Day takes in to account ALL those who have died in conflict, not just those in WW1.

Interesting comments from Sir Tim Laurence about the "gentleman's agreement" and I tend to agree with its sentiments personally.Here is an extract

How on earth should one do it? How should the centenary of the end of a war be marked? Not just any war — the Great War. A war which involved almost every country and resulted in millions of deaths. As we approach the 100th eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the answer is that we will mark its end in many different ways. This year 11 November falls on a Sunday, so the main remembrance events must all happen on one day. A gentleman’s agreement in Europe had been that each nation would mark it in their own way on their own soil. However President Macron has invited his fellow leaders to join him in Paris. Awkward. Does one snub one’s own country or the French? No doubt elegant solutions will be found.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11...-gentlemans-agreement-for-remembrance-sunday/

 

[Lumutqueen]

I was initially surprised in a way that no one high profile represented the UK but I do feel its important to place the emphasis on memorials at home, it would have been seen as a snub to those at home if the Queen, Charles or William attended the French events over the London ones, likewise I suspect the plans for Andrew, Anne and Edward to attend events in each of the home nations would have been in place and taken importance over events in France.
Also bear in mind, in the UK Remembrance Day takes in to account ALL those who have died in conflict, not just those in WW1.

Interesting comments from Sir Tim Laurence about the "gentleman's agreement" and I tend to agree with its sentiments personally.Here is an extract

How on earth should one do it? How should the centenary of the end of a war be marked? Not just any war — the Great War. A war which involved almost every country and resulted in millions of deaths. As we approach the 100th eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the answer is that we will mark its end in many different ways. This year 11 November falls on a Sunday, so the main remembrance events must all happen on one day. A gentleman’s agreement in Europe had been that each nation would mark it in their own way on their own soil. However President Macron has invited his fellow leaders to join him in Paris. Awkward. Does one snub one’s own country or the French? No doubt elegant solutions will be found.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11...-gentlemans-agreement-for-remembrance-sunday/

Beautiful summation.

 

[jacqui24]

I’m not arguing either way whether a member of BRF or Theresa May should’ve gone to France. But for those critical of what happened in France and bringing up Tim Laurence’s comments, isn’t Britain inviting the German President violating the same Gentlemen’s agreement?

 

[Pranter]

Well, he shouldn´t expect very much to happen. It´s just a thing being unnoticed by the majority. For them it´s just an average sunday like others. Politicians will attend some events which will be shown in short news clips on the telly. The average german is just hardly interested in this.

I guess that makes sense really considering the circumstances. It's of course a pretty big thing here still.


LaRae

 

[JR76]

From the replies to my question it seems that, for different reasons, the Germans are as uninterested with national ceremonies of remembrance as my fellow Swedes are. We're all very proud of our country's achievements, but we're not that much interested in celebrating it. Veterans day didn't become a national flag day until this year and our national day have only been a public holiday for a few years. It wasn't that long ago that May 1st was more widely celebrated than what at the time was called "Day of the Swedish flag"

 

[Iolanthe]

I was actually a bit surprised that the German President chose to go to London. While I understand that Germany had nothing to celebrate when they lost the war don't they have any ceremonies to commemorate the fallen soldiers?

To add to all the great information and reasons other members have posted - Rememberance Day is pretty close to November 9th - a rather complex date for Germany, so I think for many it wouldn't feel appropriate to focus on one aspect of that date (eg remembering the end of a war) without adressing the others.
November 9th is also known as the "Schicksalstag der Deutschen" (day of fate:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_9_in_German_history) because many crucial events happened on this day - terrible and great ones. The most important ones would certainly be the proclamation of the republic in 1918, the Novemberprogrom in 1938 and the fall of the Wall in 1989. The date of the fall of the Wall would have been the logical date for the national day, but because of the terrible associations of that date (especially the beginning of the Novemberprogroms), it was never seriously considered (and the rather meaningless October 3th was choosen). (If you ask me, November 9th would make a great national day. Not one to celebrate, but one to learn and think and remember. )

 

[Kataryn]

LaRae - here in Bavaria we have next sunday in close to every village commemoration walks, first to church and then to the memorials. Often salut is being shot with pistols prepared for that - we call it "Böllerschüsse". A bit like fireworks, but without the sparkles, only the sound. It doesn't happen in the big cities very often, because it's only in the villages that people are related to the late soldiers and still feel they have to honour them. Our army was thoroughly dishonoured in the last war and so we don't feel as a nation that we have to mourn much, but of course when you lost a relative, you want to honour them, because they didn't go there because they loved being part of slaughter, but had to. Those who went there because they wanted to do cruel, inhuman things, so often survived, fled, changed their names or crawled back home to to being accused. Those "normally" are not honoured then. But there still is this "ugly smell" to it in Germany, which makes that a problematic thing.