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  #1101  
Old 12-26-2018, 11:44 PM
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IMO, its next to impossible to analyze a family's dynamics just from a few pictures that were taken at the time of the Christmas morning service. I take the pictures at face value. They're a family going to church. They're somewhat doing a photo op for the public that waits for them every year but they're not scripting things or posing. They're being themselves on Christmas morning.

I think people go overboard trying to analyze these people psychologically from just a few snapshots in time.
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  #1102  
Old 12-26-2018, 11:58 PM
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LOL - yes I am afraid that we do make a mountain of a mole heap and a lot of a glance and smile.


Regarding Andrew walking to get into the car, he arrived with the Queen which we don't know the reason of, could really be anything - but when they were leaving he appeared to have forgot that he needed to leave with her - you can see the Queen , then Anne and then Edward all looking around for him. At one point even Tim Lawrence is gazing around and then Andrew comes through. Maybe he couldn't get through the family, but by then Beatrice was already moving into the car, resulting in Andrew standing in front of the bowing people when the car moves away. It was on the few times we have seen the Windsor's without regimental accuracy. So I guess that it was a spur of the moment decision for him to drive with the Queen .
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  #1103  
Old 12-27-2018, 02:11 AM
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I so often grin when I read the Fail's articles on the Royals, especially around christmas. Because no matter how many "sources" are claimed to exist, the base on each and any story is that the editors read books about human archetypes and archetypical interaction once. Since then, they simply push the Royals of every generation into an archetypical corset and imagine how this would turn out.



Eg the archetypical "couple" of the two sisters-in-law who are envious of each other with one destined to be the queen and the other married to an inferior of the king. Remember the Nibelungs? How Burgundy's princess Kriemhild and her sitser-in-law and queen Brunhild fought with all means, till Brunhild had Kriemhild's husband killed and Kriemhild destroyed her whole family to get her revenge. That's the base of the Catherine-Meghan-"conflict" the media writes about, not anything that did happen.



Or the faireytale meme of the "kind and unkind sisters" - Meghan and Samantha, anyone?



It is really fun to think about these ugly and invented stories this way. Value of the storyline in terms of truth? None.
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  #1104  
Old 12-27-2018, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Cathy-PA USA View Post
Now that articles are coming in about the Royals Christmas at Sandringham, i'm very interested in the assessments of members of this thread.

1) Camilla. Was she at Sandringham at all?
I have seen only one article that mentioned the arrival of the Prince of Wales this year, that article stated he arrived alone. No judgement to her. I would mostly definitely want to spend Christmas in the relaxed presence of children/grandchildren rather than with the Royals, myself.
As stated in various other threads, Camilla has the flu and was unable to attend various engagements during the last few weeks.
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  #1105  
Old 12-27-2018, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Cathy-PA USA View Post
Now that articles are coming in about the Royals Christmas at Sandringham, i'm very interested in the assessments of members of this thread.

1) Camilla. Was she at Sandringham at all?
I have seen only one article that mentioned the arrival of the Prince of Wales this year, that article stated he arrived alone. No judgement to her. I would mostly definitely want to spend Christmas in the relaxed presence of children/grandchildren rather than with the Royals, myself.

2) Kate and Meghan seem to be doing quite well, from the video and pictures of the Christmas morning walk. Not BFFs, but quite cordial. Kate seemed very natural and at ease. Meghan a bit less so, more tense. That would be natural for someone still learning the traditions and how the holiday plays out.

3) Prince William and Prince Harry remained far apart with very little interaction Christmas morning. While Princess William seemed in normal form, Prince Harry did not seem his fun loving self, not much inclined to smile in the direction of Prince Charles or Prince William. It almost seems as if after always feeling comfortable, supported, accepted, and equal throughout his life a reality of being less, the constraints of the hierarchy inherent to this royal family is setting in a way that is not suiting well.

4) Interesting to see Prince Andrew so very assertively taking his place in the car with the Queen on return to the house. We also consistently see Prince Edward and family remaining physically closest and in company with the Queen throughout the year. These are places Phillip and Camilla have had the honor of before. Prince Andrew showed quite a "make way, make way, I'm coming through, I'm assigned to do this, and no wonder as I'm ever so important" feel, as he passes by everyone else to hightail it to the car.

5) What do the dynamics of spare brother heirs say?
Wondering if Prince Harry is now negotiating what Prince Edward has realistically managed, and Prince Andrew has been chaffed and somewhat resistant to accept for many years. Andrew is the first Prince of York who won't become King in three generations. The Queens two younger sons certainly have some choice Berkshire Crown Estate properties secured, fortunate timing for Prince Andrew in particular.

1) Not sure if Camilla was at Sandringham at all, but I am inclined to believe that the reason that she did not appear at the church was to do with her cold and flu. It seems to have hit her badly this year, as she did not even attend the family lunch last week and missed an engagement later that week.

3) The focus was on the Duchesses and their interactions, the brothers were at the opposite ends of the foursome. If they had spoken to each other, it would:

a) have been a distraction from the Duchesses
b) have involved them speaking over the ladies!

4) Perhaps Andrew just had a bad cold himself and decided to go with the Queen in the car. After church, he probably just did not remember at first, and then could not get into position neatly and in time.

5) Who knows! However, it is clear that following the marriage, the hierarchy has probably become clearer, if there were any doubts beforehand.
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  #1106  
Old 12-27-2018, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
Cross-posting here from Lady Gabriella Windsor thread this comment and my response as it references royal family relationships:



The brooch worn by Princess Michael last December is surely the furthest thing from any one's mind in the royal family, so I don't think anyone's forgiveness was needed or offered. Also, I have no idea what you are referencing regarding 'baby Sussex rumors.'

Meanwhile, the brooch is not connected to the name you have termed it to be. Princess Michael was wearing a Moretto Veneziano made by Nardi, in Venice. There is a widely overlooked informative and enlightening article (published in January 2018) that describes the historical and cultural significance of the brooch, which I will link in the British Royal Jewels of the Past thread.
I was making up the tabloid rumours for the day or run up to the day to show how even though Lady Ella is 51st in line she is quite well known and the press could get in on the action with gossip and speculation even though it will be a far more private day than Harry and Eugenie's weddings, in response to someone saying they doubted we would even hear anything about it. Nothing being said now and certainly baring no speculation on how they might actually be feeling:

"Plus (in the tabloids not directly related to the actual day) the comparisons to this year's weddings, plus "Are George and Charlotte going to be page boy/flower girl/little bridesmaid!" plus if Harry and Meghan attend does that mean they've forgiven Princess Michael for her Blackamore broach, if they don't does it mean they haven't/baby Sussex rumours etc."

The brooch may have a completely different name and meaning but to the press it was a "racist brooch" and considering all the nonsense being talked about at the moment, I can see it coming up again when speculating if they were going to attend. That also goes for "Baby Sussex rumours" which are fictional on my part since they aren't even born yet. Just doing the tabloids job for them.


Apologies for any confusion.
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  #1107  
Old 12-27-2018, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
1) Not sure if Camilla was at Sandringham at all, but I am inclined to believe that the reason that she did not appear at the church was to do with her cold and flu. It seems to have hit her badly this year, as she did not even attend the family lunch last week and missed an engagement later that week.

3) The focus was on the Duchesses and their interactions, the brothers were at the opposite ends of the foursome. If they had spoken to each other, it would:

a) have been a distraction from the Duchesses
b) have involved them speaking over the ladies!

4) Perhaps Andrew just had a bad cold himself and decided to go with the Queen in the car. After church, he probably just did not remember at first, and then could not get into position neatly and in time.

5) Who knows! However, it is clear that following the marriage, the hierarchy has probably become clearer, if there were any doubts beforehand.



Primogeniture is inherent to the hereditary monarchies of Europe. I would be surprised if Harry had any wrong expectations about his and William's relative positions in the family when they grew up. Meghan, being an American who is not used to the concept of primogeniture, may have had misguided expectations and is now having to adjust to reality.
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  #1108  
Old 12-27-2018, 06:30 AM
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Prince Harry is on public record as saying "nobody wants to be king"! I think that he is very glad that he is not in the position of future king now.

Harry may have envied William when they were younger because William was treated as the more important sibling. I don't think that is the case now. He has a wife he loves, a child on the way, his own role as a Commonwealth Youth Ambassador and success with his own charities, especially the Invictus Games.

Prince Harry is a VERY happy man today! That is apparent!

As for Meghan, given the tabloid s**t that she's been put through recently, for all we know, she probably can't wait for the day that the focus will be more on the Cambridges than on her, Harry and their child/children. She has a husband who loves her, a child on the way and the opportunity to do her own charitable and humanitarian work. Meghan appears to be very content with her lot in life. And as an American, she may not even care less about the whole hierarchy BS as long as she knows where her place is in it all and acts accordingly.
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  #1109  
Old 12-27-2018, 07:51 AM
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It’s sad that the media have been trying to drive a wedge between these couples. Couples that are not only family, but the most senior branch and new face of the Monarchy. They’re not the Royal Fab Four for nothing. These couples will be working together for a very long time. So folks have to stop painting them as dueling couples. They’re a team. They’re also grown people, not kids.
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  #1110  
Old 12-27-2018, 08:15 AM
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I’m not sure where people get the idea that Harry was envious of his brother being direct in line to the throne. Quite the contrary, I think he was relieved when the Cambridge children were born and basically ensured he won’t be king. He does have a lot more freedom compared to his brother. And I think that’s something that outweighs wearing the crown for Harry. Anybody who has been following the BRF would know that.

As for Meghan, I’m not sure where it indicates she didn’t understand the hierarchy? She seemed very clear on what she can do in her future role during the engagement interview. She wants to use her platform to do as much good as she can, but that’s about where it ends. And the fact that she has taken pains to blend in in her apparences with the family despite the constant attention that is on her.

I’m not sure how the hierarchy would’ve been clearer after marriage as I’m sure no one tried to hide where Harry was in line to the throne from her? Or a quick google search would’ve revealed everything anyways?
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  #1111  
Old 12-27-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
It’s sad that the media have been trying to drive a wedge between these couples. Couples that are not only family, but the most senior branch and new face of the Monarchy. They’re not the Royal Fab Four for nothing. These couples will be working together for a very long time. So folks have to stop painting them as dueling couples. They’re a team. They’re also grown people, not kids.
I sincerely believe that those stories that seem to have the royal family at odds with each other are solely written to generate readership and keep these publications in business. There's no way, I think, that what they write affects the royal family whatsoever. They're used to these tactics. Its the old "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt them". They keep calm and carry on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I’m not sure where people get the idea that Harry was envious of his brother being direct in line to the throne. Quite the contrary, I think he was relieved when the Cambridge children were born and basically ensured he won’t be king. He does have a lot more freedom compared to his brother. And I think that’s something that outweighs wearing the crown for Harry. Anybody who has been following the BRF would know that.
Perhaps looking at the crown from the viewpoint of Joe Public, it all seems so grand and shiny and elegant to be the top of the tier and be the King/Queen and head of state and all that. Its like looking at the greener grass on the other side of the fence. To those that actually live the life of a royal, it can sometimes feel like a giant albatross around one's neck and more of a hindrance than a blessing. One is born into the position they have and expected to "do their duty" for a lifetime. Luckily, both William and Harry and their spouses have come to the point where they not only accept what lies ahead of them but are making it work for them.

To reiterate again one of my favorite anecdotes, when King Edward VIII abdicated and King George VI became the monarch, Princess Margaret asked her sister if this meant that she would be Queen one day. When Elizabeth responded that she would be, Margaret quipped "Poor you!".
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  #1112  
Old 12-27-2018, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Cathy-PA USA View Post



4) Interesting to see Prince Andrew so very assertively taking his place in the car with the Queen on return to the house. We also consistently see Prince Edward and family remaining physically closest and in company with the Queen throughout the year. These are places Phillip and Camilla have had the honor of before. Prince Andrew showed quite a "make way, make way, I'm coming through, I'm assigned to do this, and no wonder as I'm ever so important" feel, as he passes by everyone else to hightail it to the car.


I disagree entirely on this assessment. What is quite clear from the videos is that no one was quite sure who was making the return journey with The Queen, and when Andrew realised it was him he did do a quite hop to the car to keep his mother waiting in the cold.

Sophie most often has accompanied HM in the car on Christmas Day, this year she chose to walk with her family.

People’s imaginations do run wild when the tabloids give them poor fodder.
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  #1113  
Old 12-27-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Perhaps looking at the crown from the viewpoint of Joe Public, it all seems so grand and shiny and elegant to be the top of the tier and be the King/Queen and head of state and all that. Its like looking at the greener grass on the other side of the fence. To those that actually live the life of a royal, it can sometimes feel like a giant albatross around one's neck and more of a hindrance than a blessing. One is born into the position they have and expected to "do their duty" for a lifetime. Luckily, both William and Harry and their spouses have come to the point where they not only accept what lies ahead of them but are making it work for them.
I think it's possible that there are two different things operating. Of course Harry has always known that William will be king, and he will not, and that with that there is a difference in responsibilities, income, and level of precedence. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any of that comes as a surprise to Harry, or that he would want to be king.

On the other hand, there's "knowing" something, and then there's seeing how that plays out, and coming to a visceral realization of what that means. It is possible that with his marriage, the real disparity in Harry's and William's positions, and the various perks that go along with William's life, may have become real in a way they were not before.

Of course we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, and how decisions are made, but I have wondered if the whole process of finding a home for the Sussexes highlighted the disparity in Harry and William's prospects in a way that was just theoretical before. William will have access not just to Anmer and his apartment in KP, but to Highgrove, Sandringham, etc. Harry will have what his father and eventually William allow him to have. There is a difference there that might very well carry an unexpected emotional load, and the change in Harry's circumstances--marriage, baby on the way, need to find a suitable home for the family--may have been unsettling and contributed to the tension between the brothers narrative.
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  #1114  
Old 12-27-2018, 09:32 AM
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What i love about all those narratives is the fact that they are basically bypassing the heir and his spouse. It is as if Prince William and Catherine are about to be King/Queen tomorrow. Pump up the break please. The next Monarch is Charles, and the future Queen is Camilla. Judging the longevity of the Queen, Prince Philip, and the Queen Mother, it could be another 25 to 30 years before William ascends to the throne. In the meantime Charles will be in charge and no one knows his aspirations for his sons. Well we have an idea about the future Prince of Wales' role but that is all we know.
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  #1115  
Old 12-27-2018, 10:01 AM
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I can't believe people are trying to paint this narrative of Harry finding his place and being somehow disappointed. Just imagine how it is for the REST of the family if people think Harry has it bad. For as much as he's behind some, he's ahead of FAR more.
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  #1116  
Old 12-27-2018, 10:13 AM
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I can't believe people are trying to paint this narrative of Harry finding his place and being somehow disappointed. Just imagine how it is for the REST of the family if people think Harry has it bad. For as much as he's behind some, he's ahead of FAR more.
I don't believe I in any way implied that Harry has it bad. He doesn't. What I said is that it's possible that the disparity in his and William's choices and prospects may be apparent more now than they were when he was the bachelor prince. Or perhaps not, there's no way to tell, and we'll certainly never know one way or the other.

My point was that family dynamics are a weird thing, and anyone with siblings knows that that can play out in very odd and unexpected ways. For me, it's an interesting thing to think about, because at the end of the day, the Windsors are a large and famous family, but they are still just people.
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  #1117  
Old 12-27-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ista View Post
I think it's possible that there are two different things operating. Of course Harry has always known that William will be king, and he will not, and that with that there is a difference in responsibilities, income, and level of precedence. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any of that comes as a surprise to Harry, or that he would want to be king.

On the other hand, there's "knowing" something, and then there's seeing how that plays out, and coming to a visceral realization of what that means. It is possible that with his marriage, the real disparity in Harry's and William's positions, and the various perks that go along with William's life, may have become real in a way they were not before.

Of course we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, and how decisions are made, but I have wondered if the whole process of finding a home for the Sussexes highlighted the disparity in Harry and William's prospects in a way that was just theoretical before. William will have access not just to Anmer and his apartment in KP, but to Highgrove, Sandringham, etc. Harry will have what his father and eventually William allow him to have. There is a difference there that might very well carry an unexpected emotional load, and the change in Harry's circumstances--marriage, baby on the way, need to find a suitable home for the family--may have been unsettling and contributed to the tension between the brothers narrative.
I would agree with this entirely. On top of that, I think Harry is possibly finding it hard to deal with the negative publicity surrounding himself and his wife. While anyone would find it discouraging and infuriating, I really think Harry, in particular, is struggling. We've seen numerous reports about the fact that he was moody and irritable in the lead up to the wedding and now we see reports, and with our own eyes at various events including the Christmas walk, that he doesn't seem to be the smiling, joking, happy go lucky guy he previously was. I suspect that Harry was very, very used to always being a royal family favorite in the eyes of the public and very likely even within the family if past pictures and events are anything to judge by. Now, with the negativity surrounding both he and his wife he may very well be struggling with the idea of not being in a position where he can do no wrong. The stories surrounding Meghan have been brutal but they certainly haven't been flattering about his own behavior and if there's any truth at all to the rumors of his family and in particular his brother expressing concern about his relationship he may well be feeling a bit attacked and at a loss when he's so used to always being looked upon favorably and even affectionately.

When he, Kate, and William were seen as a trio and almost always on equal footing and stories were almost always overwhelmingly positive about their relationships and their interactions it would have been easy to forget or at least ignore the realities that eventually they would be in far different positions, Harry would never be on William's level within the hierarchy, he would eventually be relegated to the "lesser son" position that we see with Andrew and Edward, etc. However, now that the stories are much more negatively toned, his choice of a wife and his own behavior regarding said wife is much maligned in the press, and it's becoming ever clearer that he and the Cambridges are not, in fact, on equal footing, it seems that the realities, while always known, are sinking in for Harry and dampening his spirit tremendously.
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  #1118  
Old 12-27-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I can't believe people are trying to paint this narrative of Harry finding his place and being somehow disappointed. Just imagine how it is for the REST of the family if people think Harry has it bad. For as much as he's behind some, he's ahead of FAR more.
Its entirely possible that each brother could be a bit envious of the other at certain aspects of how things go. These are two men that want their family to have as much of a "normal" growing up as possible. I seriously doubt though that much of "the other side of the fence" has to do with material things though.

One fact remains true and that is that they both need each other. The monarchy runs as a team effort. No matter who is the monarch, the rest of the family is depended on to keep it working actively and remaining relevant to the people. The way I see it, each brother has taken their roles in the scheme of things to heart with the desire to do the best they possibly can. Sure, there's differences but if everyone was to be doing the same thing, a lot of events and tours and whatnot would be put on the back burner or go the way of the dinosaur.

I do believe that *all* of the royal family has the best interest of the monarchy at heart and that's what really matters above everything else. I've seen no indication where any of them really want to "fly solo" and claim fame, fortune and glory for themselves alone.

Go Team Windsor!!!

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Now, with the negativity surrounding both he and his wife he may very well be struggling with the idea of not being in a position where he can do no wrong.
I think its more the case that he is frustrated at not being able to do anything really about the negativity. He's very protective of his wife and now their unborn child. If there's photographers and reporters around, I don't blame him one bit for not smiling. He's more likely to be restraining himself from lashing out and busting a few cameras.

Just my take on it.
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  #1119  
Old 12-27-2018, 10:45 AM
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What i love about all those narratives is the fact that they are basically bypassing the heir and his spouse. It is as if Prince William and Catherine are about to be King/Queen tomorrow. Pump up the break please. The next Monarch is Charles, and the future Queen is Camilla. Judging the longevity of the Queen, Prince Philip, and the Queen Mother, it could be another 25 to 30 years before William ascends to the throne. In the meantime Charles will be in charge and no one knows his aspirations for his sons. Well we have an idea about the future Prince of Wales' role but that is all we know.
I'm glad you said it - the next King and Queen is Charles and Camilla ...
That seems to be very understated.
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  #1120  
Old 12-27-2018, 10:51 AM
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On top of that, I think Harry is possibly finding it hard to deal with the negative publicity surrounding himself and his wife. While anyone would find it discouraging and infuriating, I really think Harry, in particular, is struggling.

Good points Heather.
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